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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Arbitrary barriers. |
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I'm fed up of arbitrary blocks to progression is games. For example having to find 100 rings to open up the next level*. The more arbitrary the task and the less integrated into plot it is, the worse this sentiment gets. Obviously, it is hard to get rid of all arbitrary barriers in games, because most games tend to consist of jumping through (metaphorical) tasks. Good puzzles that make 'sense' is one way of avoiding this.
1. In Mario 64, the need to get stars was so that the player would experience more of the game. If you didn't need stars you could have gone straight to the end. (Of course Mario 64 is more of an adventure playground / interactive themepark than a story-led game. You aren't playing for the 'story' but to experience the environments, and enjoy the tasks it throws at you).
Thoughts? |
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JamesE .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Straight Up, Straight Down
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Arbitrary barriers. |
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Ketch wrote: | ]For example having to find 100 rings to open up the next level |
Correction: The FIRST level. I almost spat blood and chunks of lung I was so mad about that.
Mario 64 isn't so arbitrary, really - it manages to find a pretty neat way to integrate why you need the stars into it's flimsy little plot. Sonic 2006's requirements (at least as far as I played) define arbitrary. _________________
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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so is this the rare thread?
but yeah, this reminds me of the recent discussion about fetch quests in adventure games / zelda. where you need to herd goats before you can get a slingshot. aside from the fact that it twists logic and causality, it completely destroys the suspense of disbelief in the world. _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | where you need to herd goats before you can get a slingshot. |
Are you citing an exact example? Because that is not how the situation works. You need to have to cash to buy the slingshot no matter what you've done.
Also, the fetch quest at the beginning of TP (which is what you seem to be referencing) is much less suspension of disbelief breaking than other references given. That said, it is pretty eye rolling-ly transparent and suspension of disbelief breaking. It is the only kind of thing like that though. Later you have to collect tears of light! (but seriously the game is very fetch quest low, and the fetch quests you do do are short and done for somewhat logical reasons. More so than any recent Zelda anyways.) _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Shapermc wrote: | dessgeega wrote: | where you need to herd goats before you can get a slingshot. |
Are you citing an exact example? Because that is not how the situation works. You need to have to cash to buy the slingshot no matter what you've done |
well, i havn't played it myself! that's just the example someone used in the previous thread.
how about "find five golden leaves before i will give you the key to the next dungeon"? _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | how about "find five golden leaves before i will give you the key to the next dungeon"? |
What's that from? And why leaves? Is this a barter system? _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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that's from link's awakening! and yes, the "magical trinkets" aspect is part of it: working to earn money to trade for goods makes logical sense within an economic system and doesn't shatter the illusion quite so much. also, there are probably different ways to earn money and thus the barrier isn't as arbitrary! (see: purchasing the arrows / candle in the first zelda.) if you need to collect the five golden leaves, there's only one place to get them. jump through the developers' hoops! _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Link's Awakening does the whole "this for that" thing amazingly well because it has that whole chain of things that lasts through like 2/3 of the game. You know, the one with the Yoshi Doll and dozens of other obvious pokes at the whole thing. It kind of snowballed and overtook itself from being something almost tounge-in-cheek level of outrageousness to being a lynchpin of the series. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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JamesE .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Straight Up, Straight Down
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Finding the leaves wasn't so much an arbitary fetch quest, more a whole mini-dungeon with unique enemies to fight (like the knights with maces, which I can't remember showing up elsewhere). I played that through fresh when I was 14, and I'd already come to accept that the game world had some videogame logic to it's interactions, but I still found it perfectly charming and immersive. It makes sense, too - Richard had to leave in a hurry, and suddenly a kid with a sword and shield turns up looking for help. It makes sense that he'd try and cut a deal with Link in exile. The layout and flow of the castle was a nice change of pace, and it felt like it's own reward.
What are the real life fetch quests? Trying to scrounge up enough batteries to use a remote control? Trying to scrounge up enough change to pay for food 4 minutes before the delivery guy knocks on your door? University? I'm thinking arbitary tasks aren't just confined to videogames. _________________
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dark steve .
Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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University. Particularly when you have a non-straightforward registration or financial problem you need resolved. _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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JamesE wrote: | What are the real life fetch quests? Trying to scrounge up enough batteries to use a remote control? |
I actually had to do this last Saturday for the Wii remote. I ended up finding like two older things that used batteries in a box at the back of a closet (a camera and an old vcr remote) and I had to use one from each set (don't ask, but the one from the camera was dead but the other wasn't. I don't know how that happen).
Another thing I have to do (because of my wife) is constantly go back through game boxes to put away games. Like I will take Harvest Moon out of the GC and find PN03 in the HM case, then find Billy Hatcher in the PN03 case, then find Killer 7 in the Billy Hatcher case, then find Metroid Prime in the killer 7 case. So like, I have to put all these games in the right case just to put one game away. (That wasn't an exact example, but I did literally have to do all that just this weekend too, I just can't remember the games). _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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wourme .
Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 362 Location: Maridia
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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I thought this was going to be about invisible walls and things, such as the dog in Shadow of Destiny. Actual invisible walls really annoy me. Even Katamari Damacy resorted to them where they didn't really need to.
An issue I encounter a lot when I'm making little games myself is what to do with the sky. I mean, it's easy enough to block it off as in Blaster Master--but that ceiling plays a role in Blaster Master other than JUST keeping the player contained. |
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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A game where you play a mime and run into invisible walls would be hilarious. |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I really like your game ideas. I mean, I would hate to play them, but I would still probably buy it anyway. |
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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I am full of good bad ideas. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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fucking oblivion. _________________
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Redeye .
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 986 Location: filth
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Nana Komatsu wrote: | A game where you play a mime and run into invisible walls would be hilarious. |
Imagine if that was a Wii game.
wow _________________ I felt sheer anarchic joy when I ran over my first pedestrian. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | that's from link's awakening! and yes, the "magical trinkets" aspect is part of it: working to earn money to trade for goods makes logical sense within an economic system and doesn't shatter the illusion quite so much. also, there are probably different ways to earn money and thus the barrier isn't as arbitrary! (see: purchasing the arrows / candle in the first zelda.) if you need to collect the five golden leaves, there's only one place to get them. jump through the developers' hoops! |
I don't know what it is about that game but I will jump through the developers' hoops happily and unquestioningly when I'm playing it. You know the leaves aren't important, he may as well have just said 'ok but first you gotta do the castle bit'. Fine, because the castle bit is fun.
I think it's because that dude is such a 1 dimensional character and the game is so self-aware of it's gameyness that you don't question it. I don't imagine that man ever wanting anything other than 5 golden leaves.
Majora has a similar structure- you have to steal back the lead singer of the fish band's eggs from the lady pirates before you can do the Water Temple. It's a more convincing reason for a task that you have to do, because her eggs are irreplaceable, but I guess it's not so much the storyline's justification were talking about here as the structure of the game. Anyhow, in both cases it's not like you can't do other things in the meantime. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Harveyjames wrote: | I don't know what it is about that game but I will jump through the developers' hoops happily and unquestioningly when I'm playing it. You know the leaves aren't important, he may as well have just said 'ok but first you gotta do the castle bit'. Fine, because the castle bit is fun.
I think it's because that dude is such a 1 dimensional character and the game is so self-aware of it's gameyness that you don't question it. |
andy wrote about this same subject in issue 3, actually! _________________
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silentmatt .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 305 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | fucking oblivion. |
Yeah, that "open-ended gameplay" got old WAY faster than it should of. Le sigh. Who knew you would have to traverse the friggin' country three times to get all the ingredients to bake a cake? _________________ PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient." |
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Redeye .
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 986 Location: filth
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: |
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silentmatt wrote: | dhex wrote: | fucking oblivion. |
Yeah, that "open-ended gameplay" got old WAY faster than it should of. Le sigh. Who knew you would have to traverse the friggin' country three times to get all the ingredients to bake a cake? |
You may be missing the point.
Oblivion was all about the intelligent and complex dialogue.
The way that your actions would really have an impact on the outcome of the game really impressed me.
The AI ruled! So lifelike and believable. No telepathy network or people repeating stock phrases or having bipolar episodes in the middle of conversations.
I especially liked the physics. Being able to barricade doors/etc. like in the Blues Brothers was awesome.
Don't forget the combat. Say goodbye to sluggish, jerky button-mash fests. I especially like the way the game responded to me stealth arrowing someone in the back of the head at point blank range.
My favorite part of Oblivion was sneaking up on people with levitation and firing straight down at them with my crossbow. _________________ I felt sheer anarchic joy when I ran over my first pedestrian. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: |
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combat was the one thing they got right, actually.
i was thinking more about the actual arbitrary barriers of the world map. _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Oblivion didn't let me do anything I wanted to. I approached the game from the angle that the developers were renaissance fair dorks who I would have nothing in common with and worked from there. If someone told me to go to the guildhall, I'd go for a swim in the lake. If I was told to seek out the mystic stone of Kazakh-Ghull I'd go and try to climb a mountain. Then I'd bump into an invisible wall. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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wourme wrote: | I thought this was going to be about invisible walls and things, such as the dog in Shadow of Destiny. |
Real invisable walls piss me off less than terrible ones, like a 6 inch high rows of rocks you can't pass, or like police tape. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Redeye .
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 986 Location: filth
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | combat was the one thing they got right, actually.
i was thinking more about the actual arbitrary barriers of the world map. |
I was being funny.
A lot of people were bothered by edges of the map.
That actually didn't bother me.
Going beyond the edges would mean implementing Skyrim, Elsewheyr, etc.
What did you like about the combat? I just couldn't get into it. I guess I won't satisfied unti I get a VR suit or something. _________________ I felt sheer anarchic joy when I ran over my first pedestrian. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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it had a lot more bounce and tactile feedback than previous TES titles, to be sure. less of being a complete 2d tank rolling through the landscape. _________________
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