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EB Games is discussing what new policy?
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SuperWes
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject:

dhex wrote:

Stuff

No, I mean, you're right and I realize that things are now much, much better for stores like Gamestop, but the fact is that we used to kind of live in a Utopian Game store society where shit like this actually existed, and now it's, like, the total opposite. I guess I'm just getting used to it.

Gamestop/EB is at a Monopoly level of game stores now, but they're also at a level where all it would take to undo them is a store that actually gave people decent cash for used stuff that they would then sell at decent prices. Basically what we need are a few stores that make an equal amount on used games that they do selling new ones instead of blatantly takind advantage of their customers.

-Wes
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dhex
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject:

if i buy a game at say, $25 for a $50 game, and then sell it for a fair price (30? 35?) i'd have to sell thousands of used games a month just to make rent. not going to happen, not with ebay and the like. gamestop and the like are only a monopoly in the sense that brick and mortar retail stores don't always sell a lot of games, and those that do don't sell used. but with ebay/half/teh interweb, that's sort of moot at this point. _________________

Shapermc
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject:

dhex wrote:

1) so if a game you buy doesn't meet your expectations, you're entitled to what is essentially a refund of your money after playing it to completion?

Wes doesn't complete games.
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SuperWes
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject:

Shapermc wrote:

dhex wrote:

1) so if a game you buy doesn't meet your expectations, you're entitled to what is essentially a refund of your money after playing it to completion?

Wes doesn't complete games.

Neither does Matt.

Also:

dhex wrote:

if i buy a game at say, $25 for a $50 game, and then sell it for a fair price (30? 35?) i'd have to sell thousands of used games a month just to make rent. not going to happen, not with ebay and the like.

gamestop and the like are only a monopoly in the sense that brick and mortar retail stores don't always sell a lot of games, and those that do don't sell used. but with ebay/half/teh interweb, that's sort of moot at this point.

That's not true. Game stores make a shitload of profit off of used games, especially when compared to the small profit they make off of new games. That's why it's stupid for stores not to sell used games when they can make so much more profit than new games. It's why Best Buy and Circuit City are looking into used game sales, and why places like Blockbuster and Hollywood video are opening up game stores.

So what would happen if someone lowered the used game profit margins to something closer to that of new games? More people would shop with them, bringing their sales numbers up and making their profits closer to that of the other guys. Not only that, but it would force their competitor to modify prices significantly to keep up, and if it's a huge chain with stores all over the country they're probaly not going to modify their prices for just a few stores that are getting trounced locally.

The biggest problem would be getting the word out that this store exists and that it's a better place for people to take their games than Gamestop.

-Wes
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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Location: Philadelphia

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

SuperWes wrote:

I remember back in the day when you could exchange a NEW game within 10 days of purchase for any reason. Those were the days. I exploited the shit out of that policy...

Does anyone else see the irony in his comment given the original topic of this thread?
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Alc
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject:

SuperWes wrote:

So what would happen if someone lowered the used game profit margins to something closer to that of new games? More people would shop with them, bringing their sales numbers up and making their profits closer to that of the other guys. Not only that, but it would force their competitor to modify prices significantly to keep up, and if it's a huge chain with stores all over the country they're probaly not going to modify their prices for just a few stores that are getting trounced locally.

The biggest problem would be getting the word out that this store exists and that it's a better place for people to take their games than Gamestop.

-Wes

I can't really talk about US game stores because I have no direct experience of them, nor am I an expert in economics, but I think you might be looking at the wrong area in business terms. I remember reading an article years ago on how 90% of all games stores go bankrupt within 3 years of being open, or a statistic to that effect. The reason being that stock depreciates in worth way faster than most other stores. If a gardening store doesn't sell a lawnmower within six months it doesn't halve its worth, which is the reality for almost all videogames. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while you perceive a gouging monopoly, the reality may be that the current profit margins on used games are actually keeping such stores alive. If a store buys a game for $20 and then immediately puts it on the shop floor for $35, there's nothing to say they'll actually get that. If it sits there for a few months it'll have to be marked down and suddenly all the profit evaporates.

In the UK, there is no main game store. No monopoly. Every time I visit one I'm consciously double checking the prices vs that which I know I could find on ebay, and I'm sure I'm not the only one; I mostly do it to find obscure retro titles that have somehow been underpriced. I'm not sure the price differential between online and street stores is a result of big evil business on behalf of the street stores: they know what they're up against and they are making their money on the "impulse buy" and "kids who don't have credit cards yet" markets. Both of these, in the UK at least, are small and getting smaller (as more people become accustomed to online trade), so I've always associtated the price hike with an attempt to stay out of the red rather than screw the consumer. It's been the reality for indy music stores for going on 5 years now, I don't see why the same wouldn't be true for used videogames stores.

DonMarco
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:45 pm Post subject:

Shapermc wrote:

Or you could sell the game on ebay for $40-$45 like EB/GS does. No need to use EB/GS for any other reason than the instant gratification thing.

A lot of people don't want to bother waiting for the auction to run it's course, deal with mailing, insurance, etc. Yard sales, selling to firends, giving it to cousins, younger brothers... There are other ways to get rid of games.

SuperWes wrote:

Gamestop/EB is at a Monopoly level of game stores now, but they're also at a level where all it would take to undo them is a store that actually gave people decent cash for used stuff that they would then sell at decent prices. Basically what we need are a few stores that make an equal amount on used games that they do selling new ones instead of blatantly takind advantage of their customers.

There's still Game Crazy. And as long as Wal-mart has a video games department you cant really say "monopoly". You hear about how Best Buy wants to break in to used game sales? Did you? Huh??

Here's what I did today: trade in GRAW for $32. Edge card game me another $3.20, so $35.20 all together. I bought GRAW for $50 used some three months back. It cost me about $15 to own and play it these last few months. Technically much less since it was part of a "buy 2 get one free" sale. Also there's my employee discount.

So I still have seven 360 games. And to get Chromehounds and the guide today cost me a measly $25 and GRAW. Meh.
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dhex
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Game stores make a shitload of profit off of used games, especially when compared to the small profit they make off of new games.

with the current pricing structure. i was speaking of the earlier "fair" model spoken of beforehand, and commenting on its general instability/insanity.

could a retail store maintain itself on used sales only? sure. your local "college town" record store does that more or less, at least in some places. but especially in tight real estate markets these kinds of game shops get murdered; keep in mind that a) the supply has to be constant and b) the stock has to constantly change which means the store either has to get rid of stock more or less on a 1:1 basis (to stay ahead of costs) or also sell high demand new games, since the used games have to come from somewhere. this is in addition to even more pressing resasons, like rent or the fact that your stock is constantly losing money every single second it's on the shelf; with a few exceptions, of course, this is true of 99% of all consumer electronics, time marches on, etc cetra.

ebay, in addition to causing certain collector items to become 24 hour revolving flea market highlights and otherwise driving up price by increasing visibility (and hence, demand), has also managed to absolutely destroy the used value of some software. there's not many products out there, even amongst consumer electronics, that devalue almost completely within a year. to use a metaphor from kaboom, the mad bomber dude waits for no man.
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Shapermc
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:00 am Post subject:

DonMarco wrote:

Shapermc wrote:

Or you could sell the game on ebay for $40-$45 like EB/GS does. No need to use EB/GS for any other reason than the instant gratification thing.

Yea, I know. I am just saying that it's not like you have to return games to the store for what ever credit they are willing to give. Also I have seen the condition of a lot of the games that people bring in for trade in value, and they are probably getting a deal compared to what they would get from eBay if they put up a picture.

Also, about the profit of games. Yes, they make their most profit on used games, but they also take the most risk. If a game sits on a shelf that they took in for $25 until they have to sell it for $10 they took a $15 loss. If a "new" game that they are selling at MSRP gets dropped in MSRP that is a call based on the company so they don't eat that loss (ie: half life 2 getting dropped to $20 new). So just, you know, lets be a little more realistic here.

Used = Larger but more risky profit
New = Smaller and safer profit
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title

Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:59 am Post subject:

Shapermc wrote:

Also, about the profit of games. Yes, they make their most profit on used games, but they also take the most risk. If a game sits on a shelf that they took in for $25 until they have to sell it for $10 they took a $15 loss. If a "new" game that they are selling at MSRP gets dropped in MSRP that is a call based on the company so they don't eat that loss (ie: half life 2 getting dropped to $20 new). So just, you know, lets be a little more realistic here.

Used = Larger but more risky profit
New = Smaller and safer profit

Although you're right and I have thought about that, the fact remains that their overall profit on used stuff is much larger. It might be a risk on a game-by-game basis, but they're still making bank.

Does anyone know what happens to retailers when the MSRP goes down on a game? I've heard that they don't get refunded, but they're offered higher profit yields on their next order of the game to make up for it. Actually, maybe that's systems. Assuming they don't get anything in return for a dropped MSRP for stock-on-shelves, how is it in any way a bigger risk to take in used games at higher prices than new games?

-Wes
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dhex
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:30 am Post subject:

Quote:

how is it in any way a bigger risk to take in used games at higher prices than new games?

volume and demand. keep in mind that things like sports games are essentially ticking time bombs of retail worthlessness, even moreso than the rest of your stock. used cd and game shops are also a great place to quickly fence stolen goods. no paper trail of ownership, etc.

edit: and without wanting to seem mean or perhaps even tyrannical - though perhaps one day, zog willing, etc - the general population is burdened (or perhaps lightened) by a general lack of ethical behavior. we can blame this on many things, but most of us would not argue it affects a sizeable chunk of, in this particular case, the game-buying population. the ethical burdens of day to day intereaction are lessened not only by the general youth (i refuse to draw a line between game playing and emotional immaturity, though i would not be surprised if someone could draw that line with evidence) of the game buying population but the attitude that "it's a large company and their making unfair profits so actions xyz are justified."

that gamestop/etc is taking it's own unethical - or at least unseemly - steps to break down the distinction between new and used stock is, of course, equally funny. everyone gets the government they deserve; in this case, we've gotten the retailers we deserve. (this is, of course, the lesson against communalism of any kind, since the lowest common denominator becomes the morals of everyone; and why yes i was reading nietzche this morning how'd you guess?)
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Last edited by dhex on Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total

friedchicken
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Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 496
Location: Port Land, OR

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:36 am Post subject:

dhex wrote:

keep in mind that things like sports games are essentially ticking time bombs of retail worthlessness, even moreso than the rest of your stock.

...to the point where sports games are often exempted from the 'extra ten dollars when you trade in 3 games' thing and such.

SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title

Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:42 am Post subject:

dhex wrote:

Quote:

how is it in any way a bigger risk to take in used games at higher prices than new games?

volume and demand. keep in mind that things like sports games are essentially ticking time bombs of retail worthlessness, even moreso than the rest of your stock.

But this doesn't change the fact that new Sports games drop in value just as quickly as used ones. Is it really a bigger risk to carry them used? Wouldn't the best way to handle this be to only carry enough new copies of Sports titles to last through the first couple of weeks and then deal primarily in used stock from then on out, adjusting your price drops to match the MSRP price drops for new stock?

-Wes
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Tablesaw
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:58 am Post subject:

I was going to write more, but it all comes down to (1) I almost entirely agree with dhex and (2) Wes, go to Blockbuster instead. _________________ It's the saw of the table!

SuperWes
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:25 am Post subject:

Tablesaw wrote:

I was going to write more, but it all comes down to (1) I almost entirely agree with dhex and (2) Wes, go to Blockbuster instead.

What are you talking about? I've never traded in a used game in my life so none of this really affects me. I'm just amazed at what people are willing to put up with.

What is there really to disagree with dhex about? That retailers are free to set prices and policies that are in their best interest? No shit! My point is that if someone came around that was pro-consumer instead of pro-bottom line they might have a chance to change how things are done. Gamestop as a corporate entity very clearly doesn't give a shit about who's buying their games, as long as they get MSTs (multiple Sku Transations), Subscriptions (Save 10% on our games that have been marked 85% higher than what we bought them for), trade-ins, and Strategy Guides (and most places have slacked on asking about guides now that they can get more money elsewhere).

I say this as someone who has worked game retail on and off since I was 16. I watched the companies decay and merge into what they are now, and now I pretty much only shop at dedicated game stores when I have no other option or if one of the employees was actually pretty cool. What other reason is there to shop at Gamestop instead of Best Buy? Seriously. Is there one? Game stores are fast degrading into the game version of a comic book store. Maybe they're already there.

Really though, none of this will matter if things move toward digital distribution. I'm not exactly a fan of it, but it solves almost every problem present in game retail at present, making it pretty appealing.

-Wes
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dhex
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:41 am Post subject:

i go into gamestops cause they often have older pc games and i enjoy six or seven minutes of the atmosphere/air conditioning minus the zoolike environs of a best buy. plus i live real close to like, 4 of them.

i don't really see much of a difference in price between gamestop and best buy (on pc games) with some exceptions in both directions.

Quote:

My point is that if someone came around that was pro-consumer instead of pro-bottom line they might have a chance to change how things are done.

it already has. it's called ebay/half.com. (and it suffers from its own pricing and quality control issues)

i know what you're saying. you want a real store like that. i've heard they exist, in other places (supposedly there's one in long island not far from hofstra that shares space with the used cd joint i used to hit up all the time) but for the most part the business model is fatally flawed.

when your business model is based upon novelty (and the most vocal of game players, whether they be part of the TGQ intelligensia or a gamefaqs drooling jackass, are all pursuing novelty at a breakneck pace) you eventually run into problems with having more stock than buyers. and then you have to wait 10 years until the system is a classic and everyone who wants to recover their childhood is willing to pay good money for very old technology.

i dunno. i did recently sell a whole bunch of old ps2 and gamecube games to a gamestop. got like 60 bucks in store credit, and went home with some other stuff. i'm happy, since i didn't have to spend hours listing and managing auctions on ebay, and because i don't think of games as an investment to get my money's worth from, but rather a cost from which my outlay is lost at the beginning and my time is the investment into the game.

tablesaw wrote:

You almost made my spit out my water!

i'm glad someone picks up on my sly vedic humor.
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DonMarco
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:55 am Post subject:

SuperWes wrote:

I'm just amazed at what people are willing to put up with.

There's a reason you call the customers (generally speaking) "The Great Unwashed". Not so much because that one in twenty idiot that has been roofing all day and stops in to talk about how cool Master Cheif is for thirty minutes. More that a lot of trade-ins are made by people who really, honestly don't care about how game values work. Theres a great deal of people that don't keep their games and build collections. Or turn around and trade in everything they have for an xbox and a few games. Then trade all that in and give the gamecube a shot. Or Billy is too old and wants a 360, trading in all his older "less graphically cool" games. A good number don't read magazines or internet reviews. A good number takes everything IGN says for absolute truth, or gamefaqs, or GamePro. The number of cool, opinionated gamers that actually know what they're doing is pretty low.

Fuckign hell, man, we're also amazed at what people put up with. You think it's fun watching people throw $50 at 25 to Life? Doing so after you told them it's not so great? Seeing them take $50 cash for what they could sell for $200 on eBay?

SuperWes wrote:

Gamestop as a corporate entity very clearly doesn't give a shit about who's buying their games, as long as they get MSTs (multiple Sku Transations), Subscriptions (Save 10% on our games that have been marked 85% higher than what we bought them for), trade-ins, and Strategy Guides (and most places have slacked on asking about guides now that they can get more money elsewhere).

Items Per Transactions, like MST I guess, show that a clerk is actually asking if the customer wants a magazine or memory card or controller or any other item they might have forgotten to get. The clerks that sell better and have higher IPT's stay around and the others will be shuffled loose to make way for new blood.

Trade-ins are great sources of profit, and EB/GS will usually give more than pawn stores. Not yard sales, eBay, sales to friends, but they aren't always "ready for business". Selling used games allows customers to save $5-15 per game, which leads them to playing/buying more games.

Strategy guides are fuckign golden. Not only are they for the bravest and most awesomely cool gamers and "game enthusists" but are one of the hardest things to sell. And while they don't make the store big bucks, they are a few extra bucks nonetheless.
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dhex
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:16 am Post subject:

Quote:

Theres a great deal of people that don't keep their games and build collections.

yeah, i never saw the point of that.
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The Great Unwashed
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:47 am Post subject:

DonMarco wrote:

There's a reason you call the customers (generally speaking) "The Great Unwashed".

*cough*
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dark steve
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:16 am Post subject:

dhex wrote:

Quote:

Theres a great deal of people that don't keep their games and build collections.

yeah, i never saw the point of that.

I'm also not a fan.

Although I take my stuff on ebay where I can get full value.

DonMarco
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 349
Location: 33903

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject:

The Great Unwashed wrote:

DonMarco wrote:

There's a reason you call the customers (generally speaking) "The Great Unwashed".

*cough*

Gesundheit.
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The Great Unwashed
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:49 am Post subject:

DonMarco wrote:

The Great Unwashed wrote:

DonMarco wrote:

There's a reason you call the customers (generally speaking) "The Great Unwashed".

*cough*

Gesundheit.

Touche!
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