The Gamer's Quarter

[dhex]

wes doth sayeth in the ff12 thread:

[Nana Komatsu]

I only think dialog selection boxes work when either choice will lead to a separate path in the story instead of having one path be right and another wrong. How many times do I need to answer:

Will you help us?
A. Yes
B. No!

and keep selecting "No!" until I get sick of trying to not play along with the plot.

Maybe I've played too many bishoujo games.

[dessgeega]

[Nana Komatsu]

[Lestrade]

Oh, what the fuck? I apparently shut down my computer at work before finishing my post. Allow me to write it again:

I'm not fond of text-based dialogue trees, because I feel they give you too much ability to ascertain a particular outcome based on your response, rather than allow you to answer in-character.

I would prefer a more emotionally-based dialogue system (is Mass Effect doing this?) wherein you always have a set number of responses at your disposal, such as angry, sly, hurt, elated, etc. Perhaps certain conversations would only allow the options that are likely, given the situation (from the perspective of a well-adjusted human being, I suppose).

This way, you could react to situations realistically, instead of just reading your answers to determine what might you get the best/most interesting outcome. Example: you're Ryo from Shenmue, walking the streets, asking the same questions over and over again. You ask someone about a black car. They say, "Yeah, such-and-such scumbag drives that car. Why do you want to know?"

Instead of choosing an answer (not like Shenmue actually had a dialogue tree, but whatever), you could just hit the d-pad direction on your Xbox 360 controller (or what have you) for the corresponding emotion. Say you press Left, which is Angry.

"Motherfucking Scumbag McGee drives that car? Where can I find him!?" Ryo says as he grabs the poor lady by the collar.

Or, you press Right, which is Hurt. "I can't believe it," Ryo starts, looking completely dejected. "How could he be involved in this?

To me, this brings the game back to a state of showing, not telling, as well as actually giving you another play mechanic. Choosing pre-described answers seems boring, especially in the cases where you can't relate to any of the available answers. But being able to steer your character by emotion, not knowing (as in real life), what your reaction might cause you to do, seems much more engaging, and isn't technically more difficult to account for! Bonus!

What do you think? Shit, I'm getting excited already. I'm drinking beer; I may have more ideas later.

[Dracko]

Mass Effect seems to be working towards that direction. As seen here.

Fahrenheit had something similiar, as you were timed to choose a response, instead of having to comtemplate them at length.

Generally, yes, I'd rather see something along those lines. It's not like it will stop you from pulling off witticisms. It just sounds more organic. Even the old "Ask about..." text parser command achieved something like this.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

[J.Goodwin]

[Ketch]

[Dracko]

[ryan]

Legend of Heroes 2 does the Answer Whatever, You're Doing What We Say thing.

"Will you help us?"
"No."
"Don't say that! Of course we will!"

I'm a fan of dialogue trees when they're meaningful. But forced responses like those above just annoy the crap out of me. Just let me be an asshole, game, that's all I ask.
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Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

[a_plus]

[dhex]

going back and making out with interplay's finest has kinda convinced me that for a certain time and place, nothing really beats a dialogue tree.

oblivion's mood thingy was kinda not so hot though. too much oprah, not enough ren-fest-with-attitude.




ps fuck cromwell. he's a dick.
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[a_plus]

eep, those were kind of on the big side -- sorry!

[dessgeega]

forgiven on account of awesome.

also! see ramses for a similiar example of no-choice choices used to strengthen narrative.
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[sawtooth]

I kind of liked Sam N Max's dialogue system. At least the whole | ? | ! | rubberducky | option set.
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[squidlarkin]

I just started replaying Cave Story. During the first meeting with Balrog, when he asks "Are you gonna fight me with that thing?" I chose "No" for the hell of it. He said "Oh. Okay" and left. It was good.

[Ketch]

a_plus, what are those pics from? It looks cool, (is it a Space Quest game or something?).

[Tablesaw]

[a_plus]

yup, number III. best one of the series if you ask me!

[Shapermc]

I was thinking about how Steambot Chronicles has generally the:

A: Yes
B: No
C: Asshole/snarky response

If you do enough of C people start to not like you.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[SuperWes]

I've been avoiding writing in this thread because I figured I'd have a lot to write and not a lot to say, but basically, I just think it's the cheap way out.

Most games - RPGs mostly - that allow you to select responses are generally just trying to give you the illusion that your decisions actually have an impact on the story when 90% of the time you don't. Dialogue selection boxes imply a right and wrong answer, and the results of your decisions are usually as random as a flip of a coin. Then, after you've made the decision if you find out that the results weren't what you expected and load a save or play through the game again to try something else, how often will you discover that the results of your actions actually changed the game? Very rarely. Dialogue trees in RPGs are basically the equivalent of Choose Your Own Adventure stories where you don't have the option to flip ahead in the book and figure out if that's where you want your adventure to go, and who wants that?

It's also worth noting that well-made adventure games are excluded from this complaint. In Phoenix Wright, for example, you don't really make decisions in the dialogue trees so much as choose what order you want the information to be presented to you. Then, when it comes time to actually make decisions that actually matter they are based on a combination of information found in previous conversations and common sense. If you go into the conversations without the proper information or ability to put the pieces together you will fail.

I could be wrong, but is it really better for someone to ask, "Would you like to kill rats in the cellar or attack the bandits that are outside of the pub?," rather than just telling you that this stuff is going on and letting you either hit the front door or the stairs?

-Wes
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[Nana Komatsu]

Wes's post reminds me of Fallout 2 and how I could never beat the game since I almost always picked the "wrong" answers that got people mad at me/made them attack/kill me.

[J.Goodwin]

[Nana Komatsu]

No one has mentioned KOTOR in this thread yet. But so far I like how it does dialog boxes even if half of the time it really doesn't matter which selection tree I choose.

[dhex]

so far i've found kotor to be fairly underwhelming compared to, say, fallout or planescape, in regards to dialogue trees.
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[simplicio]

yeah, kotor's got pretty awful dialog.

A) Boyscout
B) Apathetic
C) Steal the candy from the babies and then KILL THE BABIES!!

[J.Goodwin]

[Dracko]

[Lockeownzj00]

On one hand, even if the dialogue options are an illusion, isn't that part of the massage? You're already accepting the fairies, unicorns, and magical swords, why not accept the weighted choice, too?

On the other hand, I really hate it when a game like Golden Sun asks you 14 Yes/No questions in a row, all that mean nothing.

Another interesting, albeit perhaps slightly different situation is the Ogre Battle games, where you answer questions to determine what kind of Hero you are, if I'm not mistaken (and what kind of shit you get).

[simplicio]

[Dracko]

Star Wars.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

[J.Goodwin]