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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: dialogue selection boxes (another thread altogether) |
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wes doth sayeth in the ff12 thread:
Quote: | jRPGs at least have the sense of focus not to include dialogue selection boxes, but that's another thread altogether. |
so what's the score on dialogue selection boxes wes?
i think they're nifty as far as this kind of thing can go, especially when your choices are reflected by your character's experiences and attributes. sorta miss the ultima 4/5 days when you could just kinda plug whatever you wanted in there. _________________
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I only think dialog selection boxes work when either choice will lead to a separate path in the story instead of having one path be right and another wrong. How many times do I need to answer:
Will you help us?
A. Yes
B. No!
and keep selecting "No!" until I get sick of trying to not play along with the plot.
Maybe I've played too many bishoujo games. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Nana Komatsu wrote: | B. No! |
but thou must! _________________
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | Nana Komatsu wrote: | B. No! |
but thou must! |
Please come back when you change your mind. |
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Lestrade Bug Fister
Joined: 24 Mar 2005 Posts: 1760 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, what the fuck? I apparently shut down my computer at work before finishing my post. Allow me to write it again:
I'm not fond of text-based dialogue trees, because I feel they give you too much ability to ascertain a particular outcome based on your response, rather than allow you to answer in-character.
I would prefer a more emotionally-based dialogue system (is Mass Effect doing this?) wherein you always have a set number of responses at your disposal, such as angry, sly, hurt, elated, etc. Perhaps certain conversations would only allow the options that are likely, given the situation (from the perspective of a well-adjusted human being, I suppose).
This way, you could react to situations realistically, instead of just reading your answers to determine what might you get the best/most interesting outcome. Example: you're Ryo from Shenmue, walking the streets, asking the same questions over and over again. You ask someone about a black car. They say, "Yeah, such-and-such scumbag drives that car. Why do you want to know?"
Instead of choosing an answer (not like Shenmue actually had a dialogue tree, but whatever), you could just hit the d-pad direction on your Xbox 360 controller (or what have you) for the corresponding emotion. Say you press Left, which is Angry.
"Motherfucking Scumbag McGee drives that car? Where can I find him!?" Ryo says as he grabs the poor lady by the collar.
Or, you press Right, which is Hurt. "I can't believe it," Ryo starts, looking completely dejected. "How could he be involved in this?
To me, this brings the game back to a state of showing, not telling, as well as actually giving you another play mechanic. Choosing pre-described answers seems boring, especially in the cases where you can't relate to any of the available answers. But being able to steer your character by emotion, not knowing (as in real life), what your reaction might cause you to do, seems much more engaging, and isn't technically more difficult to account for! Bonus!
What do you think? Shit, I'm getting excited already. I'm drinking beer; I may have more ideas later. |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Mass Effect seems to be working towards that direction. As seen here.
Fahrenheit had something similiar, as you were timed to choose a response, instead of having to comtemplate them at length.
Generally, yes, I'd rather see something along those lines. It's not like it will stop you from pulling off witticisms. It just sounds more organic. Even the old "Ask about..." text parser command achieved something like this. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Lestrade wrote: | I would prefer a more emotionally-based dialogue system (is Mass Effect doing this?) wherein you always have a set number of responses at your disposal, such as angry, sly, hurt, elated, etc. Perhaps certain conversations would only allow the options that are likely, given the situation (from the perspective of a well-adjusted human being, I suppose). | Yes, Mass Effect is definitely doing this.
What's kind of funny to me is that this is actually the way that the mini-game in oblivion to improve people's cooperation with you works. You have four options for dialogue approaches. The response from the person will very depending on their starting attitude (some characters will just laugh off threats of violence as a good joke, while others will have their opinion of you change to the negative if you tell them that you're about to garotte them if they don't cooperate.
Of course, in Oblivion, your dialogue is not spoken, you only get their response. But you still have a ticker that shows the "number of jokes told" in your game stats.
I wonder if there was a complete dialogue thing in there and they cut it out for space reasons, or perhaps just because no one was listening to the dialogue, they were just hitting the boxes as fast as possible (which is the best way to play the minigame anyway, since the time is a factor). _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hero's partner wrote: | Q. Does my bum look big in this ? |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Lestrade wrote: | I would prefer a more emotionally-based dialogue system (is Mass Effect doing this?) wherein you always have a set number of responses at your disposal, such as angry, sly, hurt, elated, etc. Perhaps certain conversations would only allow the options that are likely, given the situation (from the perspective of a well-adjusted human being, I suppose). |
Actually, if you're a game aiming for inner character development, wouldn't it be more interesting to allow all those options, no matter the circumstances? Just to see where they'd take you? And perhaps later dialogues could be affected by your previous attitude.
For instance, say that you start off a game with a cold, calculating hard-ass put-on, but later decide progressively to be more revealing with your reactions, whether it be through anger, hurt, even joy, and that dialogue branches change to reflect this. Same thing for starting off as an emotive idealist, then the player decides to adopt a more skeptical, cynical approach, or on the opposite side of the spectrum, an uncompromising fanatic one. Or even just be utterly nuts from the beginning, creating a truly insane protagonist. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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ryan .
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Legend of Heroes 2 does the Answer Whatever, You're Doing What We Say thing.
"Will you help us?"
"No."
"Don't say that! Of course we will!"
I'm a fan of dialogue trees when they're meaningful. But forced responses like those above just annoy the crap out of me. Just let me be an asshole, game, that's all I ask. _________________ Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart. |
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a_plus .
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 252 Location: olympia
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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going back and making out with interplay's finest has kinda convinced me that for a certain time and place, nothing really beats a dialogue tree.
oblivion's mood thingy was kinda not so hot though. too much oprah, not enough ren-fest-with-attitude.
ps fuck cromwell. he's a dick. _________________
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a_plus .
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 252 Location: olympia
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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eep, those were kind of on the big side -- sorry! |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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forgiven on account of awesome.
also! see ramses for a similiar example of no-choice choices used to strengthen narrative. _________________
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sawtooth .
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 419
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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I kind of liked Sam N Max's dialogue system. At least the whole | ? | ! | rubberducky | option set. _________________
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squidlarkin .
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 100
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:19 am Post subject: |
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I just started replaying Cave Story. During the first meeting with Balrog, when he asks "Are you gonna fight me with that thing?" I chose "No" for the hell of it. He said "Oh. Okay" and left. It was good. |
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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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a_plus, what are those pics from? It looks cool, (is it a Space Quest game or something?). |
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Tablesaw .
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 303 Location: LACAUSA
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Ketch wrote: | a_plus, what are those pics from? It looks cool, (is it a Space Quest game or something?). |
It is. Number three, I believe. _________________ It's the saw of the table! |
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a_plus .
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 252 Location: olympia
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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yup, number III. best one of the series if you ask me! |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking about how Steambot Chronicles has generally the:
A: Yes
B: No
C: Asshole/snarky response
If you do enough of C people start to not like you. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I've been avoiding writing in this thread because I figured I'd have a lot to write and not a lot to say, but basically, I just think it's the cheap way out.
Most games - RPGs mostly - that allow you to select responses are generally just trying to give you the illusion that your decisions actually have an impact on the story when 90% of the time you don't. Dialogue selection boxes imply a right and wrong answer, and the results of your decisions are usually as random as a flip of a coin. Then, after you've made the decision if you find out that the results weren't what you expected and load a save or play through the game again to try something else, how often will you discover that the results of your actions actually changed the game? Very rarely. Dialogue trees in RPGs are basically the equivalent of Choose Your Own Adventure stories where you don't have the option to flip ahead in the book and figure out if that's where you want your adventure to go, and who wants that?
It's also worth noting that well-made adventure games are excluded from this complaint. In Phoenix Wright, for example, you don't really make decisions in the dialogue trees so much as choose what order you want the information to be presented to you. Then, when it comes time to actually make decisions that actually matter they are based on a combination of information found in previous conversations and common sense. If you go into the conversations without the proper information or ability to put the pieces together you will fail.
I could be wrong, but is it really better for someone to ask, "Would you like to kill rats in the cellar or attack the bandits that are outside of the pub?," rather than just telling you that this stuff is going on and letting you either hit the front door or the stairs?
-Wes _________________
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Wes's post reminds me of Fallout 2 and how I could never beat the game since I almost always picked the "wrong" answers that got people mad at me/made them attack/kill me. |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Shapermc wrote: | I was thinking about how Steambot Chronicles has generally the:
A: Yes
B: No
C: Asshole/snarky response
If you do enough of C people start to not like you. | You can't say "snarky" without referencing the most recent Bards Tale game. It wasn't a great technical achievement by any stretch, but it was fun. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:51 am Post subject: |
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No one has mentioned KOTOR in this thread yet. But so far I like how it does dialog boxes even if half of the time it really doesn't matter which selection tree I choose. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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so far i've found kotor to be fairly underwhelming compared to, say, fallout or planescape, in regards to dialogue trees. _________________
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simplicio .
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: |
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yeah, kotor's got pretty awful dialog.
A) Boyscout
B) Apathetic
C) Steal the candy from the babies and then KILL THE BABIES!! |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
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simplicio wrote: | yeah, kotor's got pretty awful dialog.
A) Boyscout
B) Apathetic
C) Steal the candy from the babies and then KILL THE BABIES!! | I think that the irony here is that the difference between A, B, and C has to do with whether you've put that boyscout in the US suburbs, Kansas, or Iraq. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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simplicio wrote: | yeah, kotor's got pretty awful dialog.
A) Boyscout
B) Apathetic
C) Steal the candy from the babies and then KILL THE BABIES!! |
It's a start. You are dealing with a universe where moral ambiguities are practically unheard of.
Side-note: I preferred playing the Dark Side of the Force in Jedi Knight. It was more difficult, and the ending more rewarding. That game had damn good cutscenes, considering how God awful live-action ones tend to be. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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Lockeownzj00 .
Joined: 16 Aug 2005 Posts: 214
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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On one hand, even if the dialogue options are an illusion, isn't that part of the massage? You're already accepting the fairies, unicorns, and magical swords, why not accept the weighted choice, too?
On the other hand, I really hate it when a game like Golden Sun asks you 14 Yes/No questions in a row, all that mean nothing.
Another interesting, albeit perhaps slightly different situation is the Ogre Battle games, where you answer questions to determine what kind of Hero you are, if I'm not mistaken (and what kind of shit you get). |
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simplicio .
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Dracko wrote: | simplicio wrote: | yeah, kotor's got pretty awful dialog.
A) Boyscout
B) Apathetic
C) Steal the candy from the babies and then KILL THE BABIES!! |
It's a start. You are dealing with a universe where moral ambiguities are practically unheard of. |
Wait, the universe of video games or the star wars franchise?
Yeah Locke, I'd forgotten about the Ogre Battle system. Those questions were just the beginning too; the game itself was full of choices that put KotOR to shame in terms of moral and social ambiguity. I remember you had the choice of forgiving a witch who's been terrorizing the countryside, but if you do you take a massive hit to your popularity. Being able to finish the game either all good or all evil was a real challenge which involved a moral and political balancing act for the length of the game. |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Star Wars. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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The only characters with any moral ambiguity from the first couple films all end up being good. That's part of what Lucas did to screw the franchise up. Then of course, he goes back and rewrites them to be good from the start. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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