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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: The Wii's a what? |
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So I read the tech specs but I don't know what they mean. Well, to an extent I do, but I don't really see what the point of putting this "article" up when they don't bother to write anything about it or explain it to the average reader. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Wilkes milky wilkie
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 256
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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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that's kind of a miserable little website, though. _________________
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Alc .
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 109 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Assuming it's legit:
The CPU in the Gamecube is ~485mhz, the new one is 729. Not much improvement.
Same graphics chip as Gamecube, but faster
Same amount of memory as the original Xbox (though faster)
Standard DVD drive
That's about it, the rest can't really be simplified much more. More to the point, they mean that if it launches for more than $150 Nintendo will be making an absolute killing. |
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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a . . . revolution? |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Matt and I talked about this for longer than we probably should have yesterday. My feelings are that I'd be willing to pay $300 for a system that's along the Xbox 360 level of power rather than an Xbox level of power. He says that that's not the point, but somewhere along the lines someone had to make that decision.
Then again, I wouldn't be as willing to pay $250 for a DS that had the Gamecube's level of power. And that's sort of what the Wii is in some ways. Kinda strange when you think about things like that!
-Wes _________________
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DonMarco .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 349 Location: 33903
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Fuck graphics. I'm more worried about the games being "hokey".
Hopefully, though, the Why will have a HD cable that sells for less than $80 on eBay. _________________ Collector of over 1,538 strategy guides. That's weird, right?
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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DonMarco wrote: | Fuck graphics. I'm more worried about the games being "hokey".
Hopefully, though, the Why will have a HD cable that sells for less than $80 on eBay. |
I expect a DS like thing to happen: a couple good things off the bat, but it will take a year to get past the gimmicky items.
Also, it is fairly easy to get the component GC cables for $50... but that is still a bit high. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone else expect Rayman: Raving Rabbids to be the analogy of Kirby: Canvas Curse in terms of using the unique interface to make a compelling iteration of an established genre?
That might just be the alliteration playing games with my head, though. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I don't have any expectation about the new Rayman game.
I really loved Rayman 2 on the DC, but Rayman Arena was so so sooooo bad... _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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SJ .
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 61 Location: swamp
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: |
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I think that hardware will be sufficient.
I believe that the new CPU and graphics will likely sport at least minor architectural improvements that allow better performance-per-clock.
Also, Wii in 480p will only need to push about 33% of the pixels of XBox 360 at 720p or around 15% of the pixels of PS3 at 1080p. This means they should be able to do more with less.
The minds of TGQ shouldn't worry about tech specs! (¬_¬) |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
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SJ wrote: | The minds of TGQ shouldn't worry about tech specs! (¬_¬) |
that's right! this is [s]post[/s]new games journalism, folks!
we don't even know what numbers are! _________________
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | we don't even know what numbers are! |
J.Goodwin <== Auditor :eek:
At least, when I'm not bored out of my skull because my audits are frozen. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Wilkes milky wilkie
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 256
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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SJ wrote: | I think that hardware will be sufficient. |
oh good!
_________________
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SJ .
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 61 Location: swamp
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | SJ wrote: | The minds of TGQ shouldn't worry about tech specs! (¬_¬) |
that's right! this is [s]post[/s]new games journalism, folks!
we don't even know what numbers are! | I didn't mean it that way! Mhz just aren't as interesting as the usual topics around here.
Wilkes wrote: | SJ wrote: | I think that hardware will be sufficient. |
oh good!
| I think I may have pissed everyone off. I intended no condescension. |
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OtakupunkX .
Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 730
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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SJ wrote: | I didn't mean it that way! Mhz just aren't as interesting as the usual topics around here. |
Amen.
At this point I'd like to point out that this is the one of the only places I can go to for truly deep discussion, gaming or otherwise. All my other tech-obsessed friends are more interested in specs and stuff. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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SJ wrote: | dessgeega wrote: | SJ wrote: | The minds of TGQ shouldn't worry about tech specs! (¬_¬) |
that's right! this is [s]post[/s]new games journalism, folks!
we don't even know what numbers are! | I didn't mean it that way! Mhz just aren't as interesting as the usual topics around here. |
i was being half-serious, actually!
i don't really know what any of these TECH SPECS mean, and i think it's kind of pointless to talk about them! _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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i think it's even more difficult with consoles because despite having pc parts (and pc gpu maker chipsets, etc) the specs make no sense because it's more about how the developers use them rather than what sort of heat is under the hood.
it's a bit simpler with pcs because there's at least some degree of apples to apples (once the smoke and shouting clears, i mean) _________________
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Lestrade Bug Fister
Joined: 24 Mar 2005 Posts: 1760 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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These specs seem to be about what were were all expecting. I'm glad Nintendo's playing them down. Their motto seems to be, "look at how much fun you'll have," as opposed to, "look how big our penis is."
And unless you're really into penis, I'd say it's a step in the right direction.
P.S. Shaper's totally into penis. |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Lestrade wrote: | These specs seem to be about what were were all expecting. I'm glad Nintendo's playing them down. Their motto seems to be, "look at how much fun you'll have," as opposed to, "look how big our penis is."
And unless you're really into penis, I'd say it's a step in the right direction.
P.S. Shaper's totally into penis. |
If we're going to stick with this analogy I'll just throw this out there:
Having a bigger Penis never hurt anybody.
-Wes _________________
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Lestrade Bug Fister
Joined: 24 Mar 2005 Posts: 1760 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | Having a bigger Penis never hurt anybody. |
It certainly hurt your mom!!!111oneoeoen |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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wes you're cute as a button sometimes. _________________
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Wilkes milky wilkie
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 256
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | SJ wrote: | dessgeega wrote: | SJ wrote: | The minds of TGQ shouldn't worry about tech specs! (¬_¬) |
that's right! this is [s]post[/s]new games journalism, folks!
we don't even know what numbers are! | I didn't mean it that way! Mhz just aren't as interesting as the usual topics around here. |
i was being half-serious, actually!
i don't really know what any of these TECH SPECS mean, and i think it's kind of pointless to talk about them! |
I'm uncomfortable with math :(
we cool. _________________
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simplicio .
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wilkes wrote: | dessgeega wrote: | SJ wrote: | dessgeega wrote: | SJ wrote: | The minds of TGQ shouldn't worry about tech specs! (¬_¬) |
that's right! this is [s]post[/s]new games journalism, folks!
we don't even know what numbers are! | I didn't mean it that way! Mhz just aren't as interesting as the usual topics around here. |
i was being half-serious, actually!
i don't really know what any of these TECH SPECS mean, and i think it's kind of pointless to talk about them! |
I'm uncomfortable with math penises Wes' mom auditors. :(
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I dunno about the whole "first year gimmick/crap" thing with this though. I always thought that had to more with people getting used to new and vastly different architectures. Now I know the whole control thing's probably gonna cause some gimmicks along the way, but shouldn't there be some continuity of goodness as people who've already done work with the GCN start up new projects on such similar hardware, or simply move late GCN projects over to the new platform? |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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simplicio wrote: | I dunno about the whole "first year gimmick/crap" thing with this though. I always thought that had to more with people getting used to new and vastly different architectures. Now I know the whole control thing's probably gonna cause some gimmicks along the way, but shouldn't there be some continuity of goodness as people who've already done work with the GCN start up new projects on such similar hardware, or simply move late GCN projects over to the new platform? |
Well if you look at the DS, for the first year, the good games that came out were either first party, or short. Anything that attempted to be more than a short game turned out either bland or mediocre. So, yea, it is just room for people to get use to things. I am not saying nothing will be good for the first year, I just don't think that they will start to be mainly hits (as opposed to misses) for at least a year. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Ryan - SuperWes' Bane .
Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 295 Location: I have no idea what I'm talking about
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: |
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DonMarco wrote: | Fuck graphics. I'm more worried about the games being "hokey".
Hopefully, though, the Why will have a HD cable that sells for less than $80 on eBay. |
That Metroid Prime game using the controller as a gun didn't look hokey to me. Looked pretty bad ass. And using it to slash in Zelda or catch fish didn't seem to hokey either.
But the "sample" Tennis and Baseball games did.
Personally, I hope they bring out a lot of gun games for the system. Pretty cool with the rumble function, don't you think? |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Ryan - SuperWes' Bane wrote: | DonMarco wrote: | Fuck graphics. I'm more worried about the games being "hokey". | That Metroid Prime game using the controller as a gun didn't look hokey to me. Looked pretty bad ass. And using it to slash in Zelda or catch fish didn't seem to hokey either. | I dunno. SEGA Bass Fishing was pretty badass with that fishing controller, but it was also pretty hokey. It took some convincing to get other people to play it. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Ryan - SuperWes' Bane wrote: | That Metroid Prime game using the controller as a gun didn't look hokey to me. Looked pretty bad ass. And using it to slash in Zelda or catch fish didn't seem to hokey either. |
I'm actually more interested in the "hokey" games in a lot of ways. In Zelda and Metroid it sort of seems like they're forcing the controller on a game that doesn't need to use it rather than making games that are built around the interface. The analogy would be Super Mario 64 on the DS. Playing it with the stylus really sucks. It's a poor substitute for an analog stick. But games like Under the Knife feel more natural, and are better games as a result.
Protip: Metroid doesn't use the controller as a gun. The trigger jumps and the button on top shoots. And Zelda doesn't allow you to slash with the controller. The closest you can get is wiggling the nunchuk to do a spin attack.
-Wes _________________
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OtakupunkX .
Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 730
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I'm holding out for a Wii version of Lego Star Wars with a real-live lightsaber duel against Lego Darth Vader.
That being said, I'm thinking that the more hokey games that come out on the thing the better off the world will be. The Wii will fall if it has a bunch of titles that could be done on other systems with more conventional control schemes. |
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DonMarco .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 349 Location: 33903
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Shapermc wrote: | simplicio wrote: | I dunno about the whole "first year gimmick/crap" thing with this though. I always thought that had to more with people getting used to new and vastly different architectures. Now I know the whole control thing's probably gonna cause some gimmicks along the way, but shouldn't there be some continuity of goodness as people who've already done work with the GCN start up new projects on such similar hardware, or simply move late GCN projects over to the new platform? |
Well if you look at the DS, for the first year, the good games that came out were either first party, or short. Anything that attempted to be more than a short game turned out either bland or mediocre. So, yea, it is just room for people to get use to things. I am not saying nothing will be good for the first year, I just don't think that they will start to be mainly hits (as opposed to misses) for at least a year. |
What about the games that used the touchscreen at gunpoint? That is to say, the games that used it if they needed it or not, like Castlevania and Phoenix Wright? If there is an option to turn off all the external Why sensors and use it like a real damn controller, then great. To kick off In NCAA 07 for the PS2, its the right analog trigger pressed then snapped in a direction real quick. Nice and intuitive. Here's the Why setup:
A full arm swing, keeping the controller level. Standing up, of course. Do you hink there is any way around this? Say your sensor isn't working or you don't have the (nunchuck) subcontroller? What if you can't stand up? Like you are in a hospital bed or arms are in a cast?
Ryan - SuperWes' Bane wrote: | DonMarco wrote: | Fuck graphics. I'm more worried about the games being "hokey".
Hopefully, though, the Why will have a HD cable that sells for less than $80 on eBay. |
That Metroid Prime game using the controller as a gun didn't look hokey to me. Looked pretty bad ass. And using it to slash in Zelda or catch fish didn't seem to hokey either. |
About the 5,000th time you attack anything in Zelda we'll see if you still think that way. Also, there's a damn good reason why most light gun games are less than 60 minutes long. _________________ Collector of over 1,538 strategy guides. That's weird, right?
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SJ .
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 61 Location: swamp
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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DonMarco wrote: | About the 5,000th time you attack anything in Zelda we'll see if you still think that way. Also, there's a damn good reason why most light gun games are less than 60 minutes long. |
Perhaps the Wii-sword should only be used for boss fights. |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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SJ wrote: | DonMarco wrote: | About the 5,000th time you attack anything in Zelda we'll see if you still think that way. Also, there's a damn good reason why most light gun games are less than 60 minutes long. |
Perhaps the Wii-sword should only be used for boss fights. |
SuperWes wrote: | Protip: Zelda doesn't allow you to slash with the controller. The closest you can get is wiggling the nunchuk to do a spin attack. |
AHEM!!!
-Wes _________________
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SJ .
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 61 Location: swamp
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | SuperWes wrote: | Protip: Zelda doesn't allow you to slash with the controller. The closest you can get is wiggling the nunchuk to do a spin attack. |
AHEM!!!
-Wes |
It's a good thing too! You'd probably end up with carpal tunnel syndrome.
I still say using the Wii as a sword could be fun in small doses. I was thinking major battles (bosses) because they usually already have the most developer thought and effort put into them. Some occasional sword/stick/crowbar swinging could serve to highlight the experience if done correctly.
EDIT: I'll wiggle your damn nunchuck. |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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SJ wrote: | EDIT: I'll wiggle your damn nunchuck. |
HOT!
Well, the thing with Zelda is that it's never really been about feeling like you're fighting stuff. Moving fully in an action direction would be a grave mistake for more reasons than just physical. The enemies in Zelda are just there to give you something to do in between exploration and puzzle-solving, and they actually work best when they're used as part of the puzzle-solving/exploration instead of just meat to be prodded.
So yeah, I'm not complaining that you don't fight the enemies by waving the sword, I think it's a good idea. It's interesting that Nintendo is marketing the game using these implications. I wonder how many people are going to be disappointed when they find out it's kind of a mix between tactile control and traditional.
-Wes _________________
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Tablesaw .
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 303 Location: LACAUSA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:51 am Post subject: |
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DonMarco wrote: | A full arm swing, keeping the controller level. Standing up, of course. Do you hink there is any way around this? Say your sensor isn't working or you don't have the (nunchuck) subcontroller? What if you can't stand up? Like you are in a hospital bed or arms are in a cast? |
You probably should have used a better example. This particular move uses neither the sensor bar nor the nunchaku. However, if the sensor bar were broken, that'd be a more fundamental controller problem. How do you play with a broken controller? You get a new controller is how.
The nunchaku is a more interesting question, because it's not clear how Nintendo's going to distribute it. It's been featured in so many of the launch games, that I suspect that it's going to be packaged with the controller. But consoles have been known to sell consoles without essential parts with no ill effects. I mean, why the hell are we still buying save cards separately?
As for the certain physical limitations, similar limitations exist for other controllers. I don't know how people can play Guitar Hero sitting down, but they do. How does one play Mortal Kombat after one's thumb has been cut off? Or God of War with arthritis?
DonMarco wrote: | Ryan - SuperWes' Bane wrote: | That Metroid Prime game using the controller as a gun didn't look hokey to me. Looked pretty bad ass. And using it to slash in Zelda or catch fish didn't seem to hokey either. |
About the 5,000th time you attack anything in Zelda we'll see if you still think that way. |
Yes, we will. And, in fact, he may still feel that way. Or he may like it more. What's your point? _________________ It's the saw of the table! |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Tablesaw wrote: | The nunchaku is a more interesting question, because it's not clear how Nintendo's going to distribute it. It's been featured in so many of the launch games, that I suspect that it's going to be packaged with the controller. But consoles have been known to sell consoles without essential parts with no ill effects. I mean, why the hell are we still buying save cards separately? | Because you didn't buy a console with a hard drive?
What bothers me isn't the lack of save cards, it's the loss of pack-in games. I regard it as the Genesis Core system's fault. One controller and a console, no game. It's criminal when you think about it. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Tablesaw wrote: | The nunchaku is a more interesting question, because it's not clear how Nintendo's going to distribute it. It's been featured in so many of the launch games, that I suspect that it's going to be packaged with the controller. But consoles have been known to sell consoles without essential parts with no ill effects. |
Keep in mind that Nintendo did design its 64 with less RAM so it could charge you later when you bought an Expansion Pak. I wouldn't put it beyond them to sell the nunchaku separately. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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isn't it a foregone conclusion that they're going to be selling add ons of many variety and color?
nintendo's done their market research. they know that reiterations and accessories are very popular with their core market, and also have some appeal with the larger, more casual audience. _________________
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | isn't it a foregone conclusion that they're going to be selling add ons of many variety and color?
nintendo's done their market research. they know that reiterations and accessories are very popular with their core market, and also have some appeal with the larger, more casual audience. | It's actually kind of interesting how much Nintendo is becoming like Apple in their strategies. It would be really funny if the Wii came out at $400.
I'm sure it won't, but I don't think it's going to be $200 either. I think they intend to make money on the hardware this time around. Which is difficult to do when you start adding in retailer margins. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Alc .
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 109 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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They've made money on Gamecube hardware since just after launch. As have Sony with PS2. The "consoles are loss makers" thing is mostly a myth, only Microsoft or suicidal companies (Saturn-era Sega, for instance) make a loss on every unit. It's a terrible business strategy. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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if it's a terrible business strategy, how does gilette stay in business? it's a surprisingly good strategy if done correctly (i.e. you move a lot of razors)
the real issue here is that nintendo is, like apple, a lovemark. loyalty beyond reason. people identify with the company. as such, it's a part of a territory they feel is worth defending in some way, shape or form. hence the long, pitched battles of economic analysis by FUCKING VIDEO GAME PLAYERS that dot message boards from here to eternity. conversely, the opposite happens, where someone hates a company or a developer and finds any excuse in any financial release to point out the dark side of a figure.
i know i'm a one note sally and this is my dead horse, but i do find the phenomena fascinating, either due to some measure of analytical detachment or because i have become so cynical as to pass directly into some form of existenial nihilism. at this point i find myself sort of "rooting" for nintendo (though i don't think i'l buy a wii for at least two years) just because i don't want to see all you guys suffer. it'd be like the 2004 election all over again. (what an awkward day that was!) _________________
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Dracko wrote: | Keep in mind that Nintendo did design its 64 with less RAM so it could charge you later when you bought an Expansion Pak. |
To be fair, the Expansion Pak was a pack-in with a couple games for no extra charge.
dhex wrote: | the real issue here is that nintendo is, like apple, a lovemark. loyalty beyond reason. people identify with the company. as such, it's a part of a territory they feel is worth defending in some way, shape or form. |
Nabokov would call this phenomenon poshlost', and so would I. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
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nabokov would be missing the point. it's not vulgarity. it's far more fundamental than that. _________________
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I don't agree. Vulgar may be too aristocratic of a word, but it is certainly an absurd over-sentimentality attached to an image; something essentially meaningless ridiculously attributed with a lot of meaning. And that may be fundamental. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Alc wrote: | They've made money on Gamecube hardware since just after launch. As have Sony with PS2. The "consoles are loss makers" thing is mostly a myth, only Microsoft or suicidal companies (Saturn-era Sega, for instance) make a loss on every unit. It's a terrible business strategy. | My understanding was that Nintendo made money on the GameCube product line as a whole (including development costs) in 20 months. That is, I believe the fastest total project turnaround on a console to date.
And they were losing money on their consoles when they started making them. GC clearly isn't losing money now, but there are a lot more things included in the final price of consoles than show up on the bill of materials. The retailer's margin on consoles is actually a lot lower than I had ever expected (having done quite a bit of retail finance exams), but is still 7-10% of the final pricetag. Frankly, with margins like that, it's no surprise that game retailers are focusing on high margin used title resale, because it's obscenely low.
The Xbox was probably the worst offender in terms of losses on a console yet. That was like, the perfect storm of console losses. There are a lot of things in that $150 or so loss per console number that maybe aren't losses so much as investments (buying Rare and all those other studios, which really shouldn't be measured against the six or seven year project profitability in total, because those are long term investments that should be amortized over at least two or three console cycles). However, they really did lose a lot of money on boxes, primarily because they were never able to get to their final cost cutting objectives...they were never able to integrate the GPU and CPU and put them on a single die. Intel and Nvidia's price cuts were based on a negotiated schedule instead of on actual costs. They made bad assumptions about the nature of using more or less off the shelf components (PC component prices drop because of obsolescence, not because of production efficiencies, older components are just dropped from the product line instead of getting substantially cost reduced in terms of production, in fact, if you want old stuff, it's going to cost you. There are companies that do nothing but produce old 8088 chips and similar OTS components for aging systems and make damn fine money doing it). They had to grow their development staff and facilities massively just to accomodate the first party development that was needed to drive the console, then they turned around and axed a lot of employees and abandoned large numbers of in process games in the middle of the cycle, and all those sunk costs never got any revenues matched against them. With just a few exceptions, their in house developed titles were not large sellers. If there was a mistake to be made in the console business, Microsoft made it with the Xbox.
It seems like Microsoft did pretty much EVERYTHING different this time though. I think that if they keep the retail prices the same, they should be even on the price of consoles this holiday season. There will probably still be a small loss because of margins and so forth, but it won't be significant and they're going to easily make it up with accessories (if you want a wireless controller, there's only one place to turn to after all, plus they'll have the wheel and the wireless headset and the camera and on and on. And if there's something that Microsoft knows how to make money with, it's accessories).
They've been negotiating delivered prices from their system builders downward this summer, and word is that the prices negotiated are below the cost of the facilities to produce them at the moment. They have entire in house staffs not just at Microsoft, but at ATI and IBM working to merge the entire GPU/CPU/bus structure. ATI designed chunks of the PPC core and both IBM and ATI were willing to basically give most of the IP and the 3d party production licensing rights to Microsoft. They've already die shrunk once, they're going to do it again next summer, and by that point, they should be able to produce a single merged chip. Once they do that, they're basically home free.
There isn't anything on that system that isn't cost reduced already, and they've been using mass components from standard tech instead of components from PCs this time around. Even down to the way that the wireless devices work on it (the wireless system in there is essentially OTS units just like the ones in home wireless phones, lots cheaper than either bluetooth or insert wifistandard here).
I think it's fair to say that if Microsoft can sell the same number of consoles this cycle, they're going to make money during the next five years (looked at independently of their costs from the first cycle). They will probably be able to recoup most of the losses that they incurred on Xbox as well.
It's actually very impressive. Pretty much the complete opposite of what PS3 is doing, actually. This time around, Microsoft intends to be in the driver's seat on price drops, and given that Nintendo has decided to play a different game, there's nothing stopping them from that. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360
Last edited by J.Goodwin on Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | if it's a terrible business strategy, how does gilette stay in business? it's a surprisingly good strategy if done correctly (i.e. you move a lot of razors) | The Gillette strategy is different now than it used to be. They have probably reached the end of the line on the new strategy (cost reduce the blades, add more blades to the razor, sell the new blade packs at a higher price).
They actually doubled the number of blades from the last gen to the current gen. That's an insane feat, and if the razors weren't actually better than the prior gen, you'd have to say that they're insane. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | nabokov would be missing the point. it's not vulgarity. it's far more fundamental than that. | Actually, I think that the word vulgar does a very good job describing what Nintendo wants to do now.
They're appealing to a mass market, they're using proven successful brand marketing tactics, and playing to their base in really interesting ways. Basically, they're doing now on the console what they've only attempted to do on portables before. If they can pull it off, they'll have proven that they are the masters of the video game business game.
The problem is the track record. Each of Nintendo's home consoles has sold fewer units than the previous one. I have no doubt that they'll turn a profit this time, but at some point, if the pattern is unchecked, their mindbase will be so small that they can't carry any of the mass market, and that's when they're fucked.
It really is fascinating what Nintendo is up to. I want to see if they can deliver not just a console but one that actually expands the market significantly instead of just moving it in a different direction (which is what I think they will do, I think this is the N64 all over again). _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | The Gillette strategy is different now than it used to be. They have probably reached the end of the line on the new strategy (cost reduce the blades, add more blades to the razor, sell the new blade packs at a higher price). |
it's not. loss leaders aren't just called losses for a reason.
not to mention this is used for any number of products, both big and small. it's not crazy in the slightest.
i have difficulty equating mass markets with vulgarity if only because i am not much of an aristocrat. it seems a bit too arrogant for my tastes. (which are, admittedly, quite vulgar) _________________
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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vul·gar (vŭl'gər) pronunciation
adj.
1. Crudely indecent.
2.
1. Deficient in taste, delicacy, or refinement.
2. Marked by a lack of good breeding; boorish. See synonyms at common.
3. Offensively excessive in self-display or expenditure; ostentatious: the huge vulgar houses and cars of the newly rich.
3. Spoken by or expressed in language spoken by the common people; vernacular: the technical and vulgar names for an animal species.
4. Of or associated with the great masses of people; common.
Maybe you were using the word in a different sense than I was understanding it. I typically don't use vulgar to mean any of the first two definitions. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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we would have also accepted vulgate in referring to latin dialects.
anyway, yeah, that's my point. "common people" et al. _________________
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J.Goodwin .
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | we would have also accepted vulgate in referring to latin dialects.
anyway, yeah, that's my point. "common people" et al. | Ok, just checking that we're using the same phrasebook here. I am no longer infected. _________________ Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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