The Gamer's Quarter

[player 2]

I was asked by one of my TAs to bring into discussion a videogame that introduced the topic of "Videogames as Art". I know this has been brought up before, but I wanted to consolidate a list of games that showed themselves as "art" in an academic sense. Help is appreciated. Thanks
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Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp

[ApM]

The only truly artistic game ever developed was The Last Eichhof, by Swiss freeware developers Alpha Helix.

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish, here? What games will convince people who don't think videogames are art that it is? I don't know. Try Fly Guy, or some of the shit on runme.org, or something. Here's a rock-paper-scissors game with extra pretentiousness -- bonus points for using the word "hegemony"!

[player 2]

Snooty elitism isn't going to help me out.

My TA is asking me to bring in a couple games to help her visualize games as art. I know that we can take any number of games and look at them from an artistic standpoint, but the majority of people, including important people in the art world, have a hard time grasping this.

As I said, I know this topic has been brought up many times, but I'm just looking for specific ones that help people in the field of academia (my Art TA in particular) conceptualize the artistic value of games.
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Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp

[Mister Toups]

Rez if you have it. That's the most striking example.

Other than that, I don't know. What kind of time constraints are we talking here? Something like SH2 can only be appreciated after playing for extended periods of time. Ico might work a little better...
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where were you when nana komatsu got a wii?

[simplicio]

The easiest way to get at art people is to hit them with a distinct and consistent style, I think; something like Out of This World or Killer 7 (and maybe Ico, though there you lose the visual shock and you need to plan a more careful argument), perhaps, as those provide a narrative. If you went with something like Katamari or Cubivore though, it'd be a completely different argument; I mean, are you trying to present them with something that follows existing art forms and narrative, or something that defines the art of gaming along the lines of player/software interaction? A little more background on the situation and what exactly you're trying to present would be helpful to me.

You could always take in the Tim Rodgers MGS 2 review too, just to have some quotes and concepts to brandish. It'll at least stun them in confusion long enough for you to make a hasty escape unseen.

[Mister Toups]

Oh shit, I forgot about that.

Yeah. Definitely Killer 7. Done.
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where were you when nana komatsu got a wii?

[dhex]

[player 2]

[dhex]

in a surprising twist of fate, the established art world is still touchy in the world at large.
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[player 2]

[dhex]

how so?

the heads will fly part, i mean.

and you're basically wrong, in any concrete sense. i have reams - if not gazzilizoids - of music that have fuck all to do with the art world. and so forth.

and come to think of it, there's plenty of shit that has been affected by games and vice versa. the whole circuit bending thing, for starters, and the rebirth of fm synthesis.

also, advertising. we are all mashups now. etc.

what i don't understand - or get, gut-wise - is that you think you can convince someone of the artfulness of a game who doesn't already have sympathy in that direction anymore than i can convince someone to refuse bag searches in the subway unless they're already versed in that whole constitution thing and have some degree of indignation left.

of course when you say established art world i think of the dinner scene in beetlejuice.
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[SuperWes]

[Szczepaniak]

Your problem here, is that most people believe they can judge wether something is art or not, at a glance, or certainly withint 5 minutes.

They can view a Dali painting in it's entirety, they can listen to Ride of the Valkyrie in less time than it takes to drink a coffee, even theatre and film, which normally take at least 90 minutes, are regarded as being instantly recognisable as art.

Most videogames require several hours for them to have this affect.

So here is my advice:

1) Forget Rez, it only works on acid heads and gamers who desperately want to call it art.

2) Kidnap your TA, and force them to play through Panzer Dragoon Saga in it's entirety. It can be done in 20 hours, and is a good example of games as art, via several means.

It's narrative is complex and well thought out, devoid of many other games cliches. It is really a classical tale of revenge and loss, with complex enemies, and there is no clear dichotomy between good and evil. Plus, it borrows cleverly from the works of Frank Herbert and his Dune books.

It's artistic in its visuals. It's style, its fictional culture, even it's hand painted water colour artwork, all scream to me art. It borrows from French artist Moebius, and various other famous painters. Hell, I can even see Dali in a lot of PDS artwork. And yet, it is also original, and carves its own unique niche.

It's music, classical, and with power. It also carefully combines several unqiue instruments, and it's use of pipes and wind instruments is rousing, in a veign similar to the aforementioned Valkyrie music. And then, it hits you with it's enchanting vocals. Here is where it reaches unsurpassed levels of genius, in that rather than using Latin, the operas of PDS are sung in a perfectly crafted fictional language of Germanic origin.


The entire game is like a refined combination of so many artistic works, and, once you have at least played a few hours, these are very apparent.

PDS combines all the classical forms of artistic experession: visual (painting, drawing, printing etc), music, literature, acting/film, and architecture. It is important to mention architecture, since PDS utilises several classical forms, and also attempts it's own more unique styles, such as the different kinds for various tribes and groups of settlers.

But above all else, it takes all of these artistic forms, and it combines them together into a gracefull and elegant single whole, and then multiplies it all by giving you control of the world. You interact with the art, affecting the art, becoming the art. Moreso, it is also a non-linear RPG, and my mere words cannot describe the sensation of flying over the ruins of Uru when they are draped in moonlight, of crossing the harsh desert barrens as giant shell covered worms arch across the morning skyline.

PDS is a work of art, both in what it uses, and in what new things it creates. By god man, if you cannot convince them with this, then there is no hope.


Feel free to print out my post, and use or quote any of the points I've just listed.


EDIT:
Oh, and show them my game, Trampoline Gunmen, I could do with more exposure!

[Lackey]

By Arzach, do you mean Jean Giraud/Gir/Moebius? As far as I know he's never gone by "Arzach" but he did do a comic with that title.
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| Little bird fighting against a bat sect game |

[Szczepaniak]

Yes, I corrected that, I was in a hurry. I meant Moebius, who has also done serious artwork other than the Arzach comic. You may also be able to spot several mistakes that creeped in due to me typing with such fervour.

Please excuse the typo.

[Lackey]

Actually you just got me wondering if the Panzer Dragoon art was perhaps lifted from Arzach; I've never read it, but I know it features similar flying creatures.

Although I had previously assumed that those PD illustrations were done specifically for the game.
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| Little bird fighting against a bat sect game |

[player 2]

[dhex]

oh shit...

the beginning of half life 2.
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[Szczepaniak]

[player 2]

[Szczepaniak]

Internet videos. Im sure there are internet videos of the game running, and of the music tracks.

Also, the fact that it costs so much, shows that people desire it, most likely for its artistic merit.

Failing that, you can download Trampoline Gunmen for free!
Though it's not arty at all! Unless you think tramps are art.

[ApM]

Man, I called you Sketch Panic first, and I've got emails to prove it. I was just polite about it, is all.

Seriously: Fly Guy is about as close to a videogame poem as you're gonna get.

[Szczepaniak]

You did? Aha! Yes! Now I remember, indeed, you did coin that phrase, clearly it was a case of others stealing it. Worry not ApM, whenever you need me to vouch for your creativity, simply let me know!

Also, Flyguy is excellent. I tried it, and it's one of those games that really makes you feel warm inside. Funny, and relaxing.

I'd say it's a good example to use, and like most of the best art in the world, it is free to view.

EDIT:
Games as art, where's that game with a bouncing giraffe that IC mentioned ages back, and it had that French song playing in the background. That was poetic. Anyone else know which one I mean?

THE BOUNCE!!!

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/221520


EDIT2:
Also, is it possible to save flash games to your HDD? Since I once found a flash game, that depicted the history of videogames, it was genius. The first level was B/W with no sound, and then it added sound, and colour, and scrolling backgrounds, and bonus levels. And with each addition, it had a history block, saying when each of these innovations came about. So it was like, 1979, the first bonus level in videogames, and you'd then play a bonus level. And then a level with scrolling background.

It was actualy tremendous fun as well, and I feel made a serious commentary on games.

I've searched the net, but the old site that hosted it no longer exists.

I wonder if some saved it, or if it's gone forever.

[Szczepaniak]

The website is BACK! And I have found it!

http://www.gameonweb.co.uk/goodies.htm#

Quick, everyone, go and play it. It is aces. I actually wish they would make a fully fledged version, with like a 150 levels, for maybe the GBA/PSP or possibly a modern system like the Revolution. It would be like a history lesson, examining great breakthroughs, before finally finishing off with a level dedicated to using the Revolution controller.

[Mister Toups]

Can we please not equate the concept of "art" with the so-called "Art World"?
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where were you when nana komatsu got a wii?

[Tablesaw]

I dunno. I mean, it depends on what kind of "art" you're trying to get videogames to be. For example, I'd guess that at least 90% of videogames adhere closely to the Futurist Manifesto--conflict, speed, and fascism. If you want art that changes the viewer, try the EyeToy games, which have the added advantage of making the viewer an integral component of the art itself. Narrative and visual styles are probably well covered by the previous responses.
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It's the saw of the table!

[Mr. Mechanical]

But, video games(all of them) actually do make you a part of their art. From the moment you pick up the controller and start interacting you're a part of the magic because that's what video games are all about, is exploring cause-and-effect between you and the game.

Player 2, if you want to convince someone that video games are an art form, then explain to them that video games are the art of exploring cause-and-effect. Much like literature is the art of language or whatever, or film is the art of motion(I don't really know what literature and film are the art of, but my point stands). Show them Killer 7, and explain it in terms of how the whole game is holistically built around that philosophy. Show them how the game is built around pushing buttons and seeing the results. Then tell them that's the basis of all games as an art form. Or something like that.

[player 2]

Always the one to come to the rescue, Mr. Mech. Thanks.

I don't necessarily think I'm trying to "convince" someone, as much as just show them the argumentation. Amy is very open to the idea, it's just that she's only had a little exposure a long time ago.

Also: do you all think that it's just about cause and effect? I think it could be something bigger. Either that, or I could reframe what cause and effect means. It seems really incredibly narrow for something so broad.

Hmm... we'll see. Btw, is that game exhibit still going on in one of the art museums in Chicago? I have to go there and check out a bunch of places for the class soon, maybe I'll check that out, too...
_________________
Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp

[Bai]

I reckon Mr. Mechanical is on the right track here. The art of videogames is unlike the art of literature or the art of film. The aesthetic effect is different and you should begin by explaning that. All discussion should stem from this fundamental difference.

To cause and effect I'd add the importance of experience (something I mentioned in a different discussion forum) and how individual gaming moments seem to support a wholistic 'art' experience, ie. something is found 'between' the moments. Certainly you'd have to get this person to play a bit, not just watch. It would be very difficult to explain to someone through argument.

In terms of examples, Rez is the obvious one, although essentially a simple shooter in a fancy wrapper. Viewtiful Joe is similar. Animal Crossing demonstrates virtual world persistence well. Try those quirky, internet-based games too.

Obviously your examples must follow your argument and demonstrate 1. cause and effect and 2. experiential play...which is difficult to accept if hearing it for the first time and therefore your examples might have to deviate slightly from your argument to be convincing (in the psychological sense, not the rational sense). So you may have to make room for Rez and co.

[Mr. Mechanical]

What do you mean by the aesthetic effect, Bai? Most games today with large budgets try to mimick that movie/cinema aesthetic in both presentation and quality. Though because CG cutscenes stopped being that impressive about eight years ago it isn't simply enough to make a game "movie-like". The only game recently that took the idea of making a game "cinematic" in concept and actually did something with it was Resident Evil 4 with its new approach to camera placement.

The first major aesthetic difference I can think of that seperates a game from something else would be the interactivity. The interactive element is what keeps video games from being a medium that is passively expressed or experienced because on a deeper level your brain is always keeping track of what you're currently doing, what you just did, and what you're going to do next. You have to constantly keep pressing buttons to see what happens next, gameplay-wise.

This isn't to say that video games are the only actively engaging medium. I get pretty engaged by a good book or movie, sometimes even the right painting or watercolor will stir things up from within. Just that video games require you to physically participate to reap the benefits, which can be anywhere from trance states to simple enjoyment at seeing how you've affected events and things within the gameworld. Great games know how to properly combine the two.

As far as what does it take to determine if something is a work of art, such as a video game? I don't know, what determines whether or not the watercolor I did in high school art class is a work of art or not? Mass opinion? I like to think not, because mass opinions change with the times and true works of art are immortal. No, it's what it stirs up from the inside and brings to the surface. If the works of Da Vinci or Orson Welles or the Beatles can make men weep with joy what does that say of those times when I feel sort of hollowed out and tired yet depressedly calm after playing Ico straight through? I'm happy that I saw what the game was trying to show me(even if it fumbled around a bit in doing so) and it brings forth very real feelings that I wouldn't have otherwise felt had I not played it to begin with. Is that not proof enough that a video game can be a work of its own art form? It is for me.

[player 2]

Let's steer this away for "what makes a game art" discussion.

Anyways, I think the cause and effect thing is all I really need. Empiricism tells me that all I know is A and B, but through videogames, I have a sense that it isn't just "frame 1, frame 2," but "frame 1, input, frame 2". This turn of events happens every time. It's a knowledge acquired subconsciously just by playing. Which, I guess, is the communication that the author/designer/director intends... right?
_________________
Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp

[Mr. Mechanical]

[Bai]

By aesthetic effect I mean the effect by which the object affects the viewer. Interactivity was exactly what I meant by that. What do I mean by interactive? How does it achieve this? On what grounds is interactivity an 'aesthetic' quality? What does player 2 mean by knowledge 'subconsciously acquired'?...how importance is subsconcious feel (as opposed to rationality) in appreciation? Perhaps this could be explored further in the next issue!

[player 2]