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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Dhex I am listening to some Prince and the Revolution rehearsal tapes! They are awesome! Dr. Fink does scat-singing in the voice of Popeye. Wendy and Lisa make obscure lesbian in-jokes! Prince sings a Sly Stone song over one of the jams they do. They reference Talking Heads and diss Rick James! ! They sound exactly like a band in their prime having lots of fun together!
I will upload them if anyone wants them. |
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aderack .
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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kirkjerk wrote: | Or... recording artists should release songs in separate tracks so people can put the drum track they like best!! |
Trent Reznor does that now.
remix.nin.com _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Trent Reznor is a piss wizard. |
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aderack .
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Is that good or bad?
Or is it a reference to Wiz 'n' Liz? _________________
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extrabastardformula .
Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 295
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | recording artists should produce albums which are one long, unbroken track so people have to listen to them all the way through.
| Prince totally did that back in the 80s. It was awesome. Also, when I rip mp3 of some of my favorite CDs I always end up bundling certain tracks together in one file because that's how it has to go.
Note that broken really needs to be listened to in order the first time to really get it. _________________ Signature:
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Sculptors should leave part of their statues as raw clay, for the viewer to mold as he likes. Painters should provide a sharpie and paint thinner to every potential buyer, etcetera.
Your metaphor is wobbly. |
sure, but there's no direct comparison to be made. i used doing the whole album as a block thing because it would make it the most difficult and rigid way to have to listen to music. now, that's how i usually listen to music, but i am a difficult and rigid man with great taste and decent skin. not everyone has to roll that way.
people interact with music more than they do with movies or tv shows and certainly more than they do with the visual arts in a museum.
obviously, i don't expect this to ever be implemented, or if it is, only on a non-pc platform or a title that i'd never actually want to play. it would still be cool though.
unknown solider
(repeat)
anyway, is modding a blow against artistic integrity? _________________
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kirkjerk .
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1227
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | anyway, is modding a blow against artistic integrity? |
First off I know some of the other people ARE arguing the "artistic integrity" bent, I don't think that's the crux of it.
For me it's more about a shared popculture experience. (Previously I've made arguments for piracy, especially of obscure-ish, not likely to be rereleased in retail games, invoking "shared popculture heritage") The music is a part of that shared A/V experience.
So modding IS "less of a blow" than the music replacement because it's a community affair; people seem to create levels etc for play with others as much or more than for their own enjoyment alone.
Music replacement as (I think) we were talking about seems more like a bunch of folks alone in rooms, playing the songs they like best or that fit the theme of the game. Now, if there was an offshoot of the modding community dedicated to making the best sound track (and I think things like this do exist), that to me would be more worthy. _________________ =/ \(<D)_/
==/\/ >_ kirkjerk.com |
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kirkjerk .
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1227
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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There's another interesting thread to this too, about the use of music in life.
(I'm willing to concede a fair amount of moral highground here, just like I do for vegetarians and vegans.)
Dhex, when you're listening to whole albums, what else are you doing? As little as possible, like just sitting and/or commuting? Outside of games, do you think it's less good to have music treated as background to other activities?
Myself, I rarely make time for music as focus. I dumped my 3-stars-or-better iTunes MP3s (the same 6.5 gigs I put on my iPhone, out of 30 or so gigs of albums I have on my hard drive-- so much of that seems like filler I don't want to listen to) onto CD-ROMs my car stereo understands, and it was super helpful in helping me focus while driving, and I like it as a foundation to do coding work on. But in the car I usually prefer some kind of talking, some thoughts presented, and on public transportation I'd rather read, and at home I'd rather do something online or maybe game-ish.
So I was just wondering what approach folks on the other side of this discussion, who seem a bit more like music purists, take to the albums they're listening to. _________________ =/ \(<D)_/
==/\/ >_ kirkjerk.com |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | For me it's more about a shared popculture experience. (Previously I've made arguments for piracy, especially of obscure-ish, not likely to be rereleased in retail games, invoking "shared popculture heritage") The music is a part of that shared A/V experience. |
i'm not sure i understand what you mean. i may be misunderstanding the notion of a shared pop culture experience; why would it be important? this is not exactly the stuff of life, here; or perhaps it is if one wants to put on their barzunian hat and cry cry cry. (i sometimes do that.)
Quote: | Music replacement as (I think) we were talking about seems more like a bunch of folks alone in rooms, playing the songs they like best or that fit the theme of the game. Now, if there was an offshoot of the modding community dedicated to making the best sound track (and I think things like this do exist), that to me would be more worthy. |
even if the end result is the same? done by ten or by one, it seems like the same aim is being achieved. that seems like a strange distinction to make.
as to the second question:
Quote: | Outside of games, do you think it's less good to have music treated as background to other activities? |
no. people should do as they will. there's no moral high ground when it comes to how people listen to albums/singles/whatever. i honestly can't even begin to believe there's a wrong way to listen to music, outside of being an obnoxious bass car prat, or the dingalings on the subway whose earbuds can be heard the next car over. even that i can appreciate in some sense. (we were all 17 once)
sometimes i listen real hard, and sometimes i barely listen at all.
and sometimes while playing titan quest i wished the music was harder and more fucked up. how we ended up on page two here, i dunno; in this age of custom cartoon characters on every (console) gaming platform and the sim plankton experience of spore and probably a billion other things i'm forgetting because i never played them, saying "picking our own music would be cool" seemed far from radical.
sandbox audio. _________________
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Most rap/hip-hop singles come with a track that's just the beat. |
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kirkjerk .
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1227
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | Quote: | For me it's more about a shared popculture experience. (Previously I've made arguments for piracy, especially of obscure-ish, not likely to be rereleased in retail games, invoking "shared popculture heritage") The music is a part of that shared A/V experience. |
i'm not sure i understand what you mean. i may be misunderstanding the notion of a shared pop culture experience; why would it be important? |
Maybe it's just me, but I fund sharing experience with people to be one of the fundamentally important things in life.
Random dialog on that theme:
"Hey, what's the matter?"
"I'm sad because you're going to die."
"Yeah, that bugs me sometimes too. But not so much as you think... ...When you get as old as I am, you start to realize that you've told most of the good stuff you know to other people anyway."
--Richard Feynman and Danny Hillis.
Quote: | this is not exactly the stuff of life, here; or perhaps it is if one wants to put on their barzunian hat and cry cry cry. (i sometimes do that.) |
Did you know your previous TGQ post is like the number two match on Google for "Barzunian"?
I don't quite get his theme but I might check out Dawn to Decadence.
So no, it's not all that important that you listen to the same music and share in that part of the same game that other people do. But it's even less important that you be given easy options to excise the music out.
**snip**
Quote: | and sometimes while playing titan quest i wished the music was harder and more fucked up. how we ended up on page two here, i dunno; in this age of custom cartoon characters on every (console) gaming platform and the sim plankton experience of spore and probably a billion other things i'm forgetting because i never played them, saying "picking our own music would be cool" seemed far from radical.
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Not radical. it doesn't even seem that cool to me but cooler for repetitive, often multiplayer games than games where you procede along some kind of plot.
Slate had an interesting quick read on losing one's sense of smell:
http://www.slate.com/id/2195018/
It's a surprisingly great and depressing loss to experience. For me, music in games is like smell, just part of the texture (to mix a metaphor) and background of the game, sometimes rising to noticeable levels (but sometimes to great effect, and my ears will perk up if it is referenced elsewhere), rarely unpleasant or inappropriate (which I guess is where we may differ),
When people are their own in game DJs, there's a big risk of every game smelling the same. Or they tailor it to their own mood, which is ok, but then its more about them than the game.
Again, I'm not ranting and railing that this is a terrible idea, just not worth the bother in story-based games, and barely in other games -- especially if you can turn down the music and crank up a stereo. _________________ =/ \(<D)_/
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: |
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i'm also the third for "apagnostic"; though i swear i invented the word i'm beginning to think i ganked it from somewhere without realizing it.
anyway, barzun is less crazy than most traditionalists, and he does make a case you'd probably find compelling in terms of his focus on communitas and against what he calls hyperindividualism; or more broadly, for shared experiences and against the fracturing into sub-tribes phenomenon. (he'd probably point at video games - if he was even aware of them - as a whole as being a symptom of decadence, as well as the sheltered man-child stereotype/horrible reality it brings with it, but that's neither here nor there.)
i must say i had never considered game music to be part of a shared experience in that sense, or rather, an important shared experience. it is a novel argument (i mean that without any snarkery at all), though i obviously find it incredibly unconvincing.
Quote: | When people are their own in game DJs, there's a big risk of every game smelling the same. Or they tailor it to their own mood, which is ok, but then its more about them than the game. |
well, it is more about them. i mean, for me at least, games are a solo experience. i don't see why the game should have primacy in all things. especially when those motherfuckers keep picking the worst possible music.
seriously though, people wouldn't have to opt out. just as they don't have to turn down the music, as i generally do. as you correctly point out, it's not going to happen anyway (outside of the xbox, apparently).
the coolness, however, would be frosty.
and yes i'd load up portal with grindcore because i'm a fucking barbarian. _________________
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kirkjerk .
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1227
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | i must say i had never considered game music to be part of a shared experience in that sense, or rather, an important shared experience. it is a novel argument (i mean that without any snarkery at all), though i obviously find it incredibly unconvincing. |
Incredibly?
I dunno. Obviously it's not THE critical thing towards the feeling of "we played the same game" but I don't discount it to the extent you do. I'd put in somewhere between "turning off the wiggly trails in GTA:VC so I can actually see stuff" and the decision to make Zelda Wind Waker look the way it does, rather than more like Zelda Twilight Princess.
Quote: | well, it is more about them. i mean, for me at least, games are a solo experience. i don't see why the game should have primacy in all things. especially when those motherfuckers keep picking the worst possible music. |
I think back to game music that really sticks out, and I admit the great examples are farther between than I'd like... but still, all the way back to the cool 2600 flavor of Gyruss Tochotta and Fugue and Pitfall 2's sad "go back to last checkpoint" dirge, the cheerfullness of SMB level 1 music against the darkness of SMB level 2, the Willimas-esque orchestra of Star Fox 64, that "yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah!" of Crazy Taxi, the mad happy of Mario Sunshine's main island theme... but there's a ton of other songs I know my ears would perk up to if I heard them even out of context.
(Part of it is I dig what mostly Nintendo and a few other long-running companies can do, deepen references to past games with good use of the old music, in Kart and Smash Bros and the like.)
So I pointed out some music choices I consider good. What are your favorite "worst possible"s? _________________ =/ \(<D)_/
==/\/ >_ kirkjerk.com |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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i had no idea you could turn anything off in vice city. huh.
worst possibles...jesus, there's been a lot. beyond just bad games (which are obviously stocked with shitty music) i am largely at a loss over the general nostalgia for the repetitive madness of the nes generation's music. i have no idea how my parents lived with that stuff in the background.
needless to say i do not get the whole let's cover old video game songs thing in the slightest.
symphony of the night stands out as possibly the worst console game music; which works as camp for a bit in combination with the hilarious voice acting, but it's too omnipresent to laugh at for too long. as funny as "the same can be said of all religions" is - and it's universally funny - constant repetition robs shitty work of its delight.
i would also include every western rpg (what other kind is there, after all?) or even the hybrids, really; 20 to 80 hours of gameplay is too long for only 12 songs or less. it all tends to be CINEMATIC STRINGS which is great if you're into CINEMATIC STRINGS but i'm more into subdued brushes a la fear, which had an ok soundtrack for a shooter (i.e. it was mostly nonexistent). deus ex's score was ok after 5 hours and unbearable after 10.
fallout 2 gets a pass for including some aphex twin and again, being largely incidental. arcanum gets credit for using just a four piece string set but even that's only got a few really great tracks on it. most of it is incidental, which is probably the best way things can go, were my ears il duce.
i will say titan quest's soundtrack would not be approved by edward said, incidental or not.
bloodlines was funny in a shit way because i spent some of the later 90s in bad goth clubs waiting for shitty opening acts to stop playing, but for the most part once you say "jesus, is that the fucking genitorturers?" it stops being amusing. sort of like once you get over bill leeb being really, really short. (i think they're basically homeless now so i probably shouldn't pick on them)
assassin's creed was pretty terrible too, again from the edward said school of OOAWWWAAAAHHHHAAAAMMMMAAAAHHHHWWWOOOOOOO
someone told me that a song by the streets was in a racing game, so i'd include that had i heard it. it doesn't matter which one. _________________
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boojiboy7 .
Joined: 26 Nov 2006 Posts: 248 Location: Yeah, THAT Cleveland.
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | consoles are outside my frame of consideration. but i do think it makes a lot of sense. i remember an older pc game that would play whatever cd you put in the drive as the music in the game. or perhaps it was several different games, i don't exactly recall. |
Almost all the games that used Redbook audio could do this to some degree or another. Warcraft 2, IIRC, could do this, but only in the middle of a mission. The minute it had to load something, it would read the CD and boot your ass out.
This is one of the things I loved about the original X-box and it's limited custom soundtracks. In order to use the custom soundtracks, a game had to be programed to do it. What this meant was that games that did use it were programmed to load a song from whatever folder you specified when the game loaded. This is what made custom soundtracks such an integral part of Black, because the game would load and then the minute it finished loading and you could move, the next song would cue up and go. This meant that with the way the levels were laid out, picking a song that had a nice little intro before kicking into high gear meant the build up to the stage was quiet and (if you timed it right) the whole gun fight aspect would explode with the music. It worked really well.
I don't know about the artistic intent aspect of the whole thing. On one hand, I can see it just fine. SotC kinda uses it's music as part of the whole thing and so forth. Though, on the other hand, I have a hard time believing that the guys t Criterion didn't program Black specifically to let you play the game of making soundtracks for the game. |
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kirkjerk .
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1227
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | i had no idea you could turn anything off in vice city. huh. |
Yeah. Wasn't that the one getting design awards? I think it was a case of effect getting in the way of playability.
Quote: | worst possibles...jesus, there's been a lot. beyond just bad games (which are obviously stocked with shitty music) i am largely at a loss over the general nostalgia for the repetitive madness of the nes generation's music. i have no idea how my parents lived with that stuff in the background. |
Despite your answer to my question about how closely do you feel you listen to music, I still think you might have higher standards for music as something to actively listen to, rather than as just setting a backdrop and tone, where workmanlike competence is all that's needed and, for my money, usually achieved. _________________ =/ \(<D)_/
==/\/ >_ kirkjerk.com |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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well, in some cases i do think music is misapplied. "survival horror" that's more on the survival side - sneaking, dark corners, limited battery life, no cell phone reception, can't find a decent thai place in alternate hell world, etc - really doesn't need music beyond the opening and closing credits. it seems it would be better served putting those ducats into sound design, which i think is far more immersive. unless the character has an ipod on, where is this music coming from? magical music land? the musicteria? music a go-go? singy mcsongster, the mayor of musictown?
ahem. anyway, yeah.
but seriously, i haven't gotten into this much trouble with people over music since i made fun of rush at the last nyc libertoid gathering. _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | unless the character has an ipod on, where is this music coming from? magical music land? the musicteria? music a go-go? singy mcsongster, the mayor of musictown? |
Dhex artificial constructs like that are a hallmark of pretty much ALL narrative |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I would like to see a {film, videogame} in which Singy McSongster, the Mayor of Musictown, is brutally killed halfway through, and the background music stops entirely for the rest of the {movie, game}. |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Space Station Silicon Valley had speakers in all the levels which was the source of the irritating elevator style music the soundtrack consisted of. The only way to turn it off was to go around blowing up the speakers. _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah! The Duke Nukem level set in a monstromart has that feature, too. I'd forgotten about that. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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why (how?) did you bring up that game i love that game _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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man whatever happened to psygnosis?
wikipedia sez:
Quote: | It became part of Sony in 1993 and eventually changed its name to Sony Studio Liverpool. |
bummer.
they're smiling because pbr is 2-for-1 at the indie folk vegan chili mac blowout.
Quote: | I would like to see a {film, videogame} in which Singy McSongster, the Mayor of Musictown, is brutally killed halfway through, and the background music stops entirely for the rest of the {movie, game}. |
"what happened to the music?"
"i'm sorry, sir...but it appears the fourth wall fell on the mayor. he's...dead, sir. dead."
Quote: | Dhex artificial constructs like that are a hallmark of pretty much ALL narrative |
then think of custom soundtracks like the beginning of an ultima game but with far better music.
voila! _________________
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