The Gamer's Quarter

SuperWes · Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: Lets talk HDTV

So it turns out I have some money coming to me. I'm looking into buying an HDTV, but I have no idea where to begin. I'd like to spend between $2000 and $2500 and get an TV that's maybe 36-42inchesish. I've heard that if you cheap out you end up with a TV that doesn't process lower-end signals very fast and ends up delaying the image. I really want to avoid this. I'd also like a somewhat thin monitor so that the TV can slightly avoid being the centerpiece of the room. Any suggestions on where to look? Is it safe to buy online? Should I look buy a warranty or are the ones that come with the TVs usually enough? Any suggestions for specific TVs? LCD Plazma? What's the best?

Most of my A/V equipment is Sony, so I'd like to go with them, but I hear they've really fallen behind on hardware lately and that Samsung makes the best HDTVs. I don't know how true this is, but any suggestions that aren't tinted with bias would be nice.

If you don't feel like typing out all of this stuff I'm cool with links. Send 'em on over!

-Wes
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DonMarco · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 349 Location: 33903

I use a 29" Samsung myself. It was a cheapo at $400, and all I really wanted in a new (high definition) TV. As you might have guessed, it's a CRT and lacks DVI/HDMI ports, not that I'm going to desperately need them for anything later on, right? I mean, It was never intended to be shown off, and has a quiet space near the foot of my bed.

That, there, is the extent of my knowledge. I take it you're going to sink many thousands and want something huge and crisp and sharp and all that. Sorry I can't help you more.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

For your price and the size you want LCD is going to be the way to go.

Things to think about:

HDMI ports are going to be pretty manditory for anything over 720p while not losing image quality. DVI can work, but you may end up needing to use a HDMI->DVI converter if you go that route, but then again that will slightly delay the quality. If you want to get technical make sure to look for at least HDMI 1.3 as that is what the PS3 will be using. Something lower will work, but its similar to USB situations.

VGA is not standard. It is very common, but not all have it. It can be very good for emulation/PC gaming on your TV. Weigh out if you want it or not.

1080p. In the "HDTV and you" thread at IC I link to an article about the truth of 1080p or something like that. It is easier to find 1080p TVs the larger you go. The smaller the TV with 1080p the more it is going to cost over a 720p model. Again, read that article I link to because it talks about how some TVs that claim to be 1080p can't accept true 1080p signals (I don't know enough about it to explain it unfortunatly).

Online is safe... but just note that you are pretty much stuck with that TV when it arrives. The amount of things that can go wrong with manufacturing them is great, and the best thing is to sometimes just return it to the store. Also, while the warranty for a TV is usually enough to cover anything that breaks outright initially, standard wear and tear takes a heavier toll on these TVs than other electronics. Also, I know you will end up using it more than the "average daily use" most likely. If you go with Best Buy, your warranty will be for a total of 4 years, which is enough times to find all the problems that your TV will have, and if it starts to go dim by that time you can get a new one that will last another 4 years. If you get a plasma it should be manditory to have a warranty as refilling the gas in those things costs almost as much as a new TV. I don't recommend plasma for heavy gaming though as they are extreamly open to burn in (XBLA Galaga has been reported to leave burn from the bezel image after as few as 20 min of play).

Lastly, do a lot of research. Use AVSforums once you find a model to read about consumers opinions. Note that going there will only show you the negative side of things for that TV, most people who are happy with the TV aren't going to say so, only the people who are having problems.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

Wes,

I picked up a new 32" Aquos last Christmas. It's awesome. I did LOTS of research. Go with Sharp or Samsung for cost and price on high-def LCDs. Both of them have massive contracts with liquid crystal fabs so they can get their prices down while keeping the contrast/build quality high. Don't worry about VGA so much. If you're still using a video card with VGA-only...dear god, it's time for an upgrade. Make sure it has at least 2 component arrays and 1 or 2 HDMI inputs. Also inquire about what kind of internal scaler it uses. Some brands use horrid technology. Sony apparently uses an excellent line-doubler, automatically upscaling non-HD signals to 1080i.

The Aquos looks stunning with games. My cable package also includes several high-def movie channels. You will literally weep the first time you see Sin City or House of Flying Daggers in proper high-def. Your eyes will thank you.

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

The Sharp Aquos handles PS2 quite nicely, btw. Even non-progressive.

That said, I mean to buy one of those fancy upconverting boxes like the XRGB3. Use it to push the PS2 and Wii up to 720p. And to manage cables. When you have a high-def display you start thinking about shit like that because the SD stuff looks so poor in comparison. If you can't feed it a good signal, what's the point?

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

I'm not so sure about the XRGB3 now. For the cost, it's lacking ports. Time to locate a better solution. The good ones aren't cheap, damn. The perils of HD: all the fucking accoutrements that come with it.

icycalm · . Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 39 Location: Hellas/Nippon

Guys, sorry to butt in, I was just in the neighborhood.

Please, don't use your expensive 720 or 1080 LCD screens with the poor Dreamcast. For one thing, the DC only outputs 480i or 480p (with the VGA box), so you will only be getting an upscaled piece-of-shit image. For another, the DC is 4:3 only, so your widescreens will stretch the image, further shittifying it (except if you letterbox it).

If you are going to spend 2,000-plus on an expensive LCD, you might as well spend another 200 for a VGA monitor, or 400 for a 29-inch Multisync Arcade monitor, which is the ultimate screen to hook up to your Dreamcast (that's what they use in arcades with the Naomi).
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disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

Not 100% the case. First of all, you can upscale a 480p image on a 1080 set without shittifying it, else a whole lot of people with expensive upscaling DVD players would be pissed. Second, some Dreamcast games actually have a proper 16:9 mode, so to say it's 4:3 only is false. For the rest, why is letterboxing a problem? If the game code is 4:3, so's the image on screen. There's a little extra hardware on the side of the image. Big deal. Still a lovely VGA to DVI image on high-def LCD for the Dreamcast. Meanwhile, the display is ready for everything in the years ahead. I would buy a 29-inch Multisync CRT monitor if I had an arcade box. Or if I needed an anchor for a large boat. LCDs are so slim and light (and low power consuming) compared to tubes. $800 will fetch you a nice 26-inch high-def LCD set nowadays. Can't go wrong there.

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

I don't know. I have no problem watching my TV in 4:3 mode. I mean, it's still a 50-something inch 4:3 image. I can't complain. I also have two arcade cabinet, yet I prefer playing games on my couch.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

hddreamcaster · . Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 3

I have this TV made by Samsung (the recent ones used for the XBOX 360 kiosks).
http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/campaign/06/r7/samsunghdtv.jsp

I tried playing my Dreamcast on it using normal s-video but the picture quality is still kinda bad. Any help on trying to get a brighter, better resolution?

I don't think it can accept a VGA input?

any advice?

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

I was wondering - is it possible to get a normal computer monitor to output HD? I want to play Dead Rising in HD but I am fucked if I'm going to spend upwards of a grand doing so.

dark steve · . Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110

OtakupunkX · . Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 730

There's actually a VGA cord you can buy for the 360. I really wish that it worked with Xbox1 too.

hddreamcaster · . Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 3

my tv only has a female input...and the only vga i can find has a female end....would it cause interference with the image if i use a cable in-between thats male-male?

dessgeega · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject:

it would cause interqueerence!

when i got my new computer i was completely delighted that i could only direct cable connect them using a female/female link.
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hddreamcaster · . Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 3

please advise/help

i really want to have the best picture quality possible for my dreamcast

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

DaleNixon · . Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 179

lol double male

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

SuperWes · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:39 am Post subject:

Hey! So I'm much closer to getting my TV now. The set I've been looking at is the 40" BRAVIA™ XBR® LCD Flat Panel HDTV KDL-40XBR2. I went into Best Buy and looked at it yesterday and it looks really, really nice.

So, Matt told me to do research on it to make sure there's no lag, and the main reason I'm posting here was to show him this. Apparently the TV does have a "game" mode that should eliminate any lag that might otherwise be present.

Anyways, I can't see any reason not to get this TV other than price, but if someone knows otherwise let me know! Or feel free to suggest an alternative TV to look into. I know it's a bit cheaper, but something bothers me about Rear Projection TVs. They seem to really distort the images when you look at the screen from an angle, and that's always bothered me more than it seems to bother other people. I won't be getting one of those, but if anyone has any other suggestions I'd like to hear them!

-Wes
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

SuperWes · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject:

False alarm. I was going to get an HDTV, but I happened upon a PS3 60GB bundle, so I ended up buying that. Now I'm allz out of money and forgiveness from Christina, so I'm going to have to build both up before I try to make a major purchase again. Nice!

-Wes
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SuperWes · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject:

False alarm again! I have a few days to decide whether or not I'm going to keep my PS3 pre-order. I might end up returning it in favor of the TV and buying the PS3 at a later date (like when good games come out), but we'll see!

Also the guy at GameStop mentioned that I'm not 100% tied down to the games that came with the bundle and they're working out arrangements to let people trade stuff in at local stores. So either way I'm not 100% screwed!

This is getting complicated yet awesome.

-Wes
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Ok, so not only did you possibly trade out getting an excellent TV which will improve the quality of almost everything you have now... but you traded it out for a package deal?
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

Pijaibros · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

Get the TV, you'll thank yourself later.

Getting a PS3 in place of the TV is like buying a nice couch before a buying a house to move in to.

Besides, a new sexy screen will be something the woman in your life will certainly appreciate right out of the box.

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Get the TV, you fool!
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

I've also been toying with a TV purchase for a few months, and bothering certain people in this forum about it, mainly Shaper. I'm not that into movies and I never watch TV... all I really need is a nice monitor for my console games. The fanciest thing I've got is a Wii (and component cables, but nothing to use 'em with yet!). And I'm a little bit cheap, so if there's a solution in the neighborhood of $1000, I'd probably go for that.

When I got my 23" Apple Cinema Display, I was ignorant enough to think I'd be able to run a console signal into it, but all it's got is a DVI input, and that requires a transcoder and cables... it gets messy, I don't know how well it would work, and at $300+, I have to wonder if it's a little too much for a compromise solution.

So, I'm toying with either trading in one of my monitors for something like a widescreen Dell monitor with component inputs to share between my PC and Wii, or just go all-out and buy a TV, maybe that 30" Samsung.

So, like, am I nuts to think about buying a monitor, will it look any good, and how can I get the best image from Wii's 480p? Should I not be so cheap, and maybe get a nice 40" TV so it's really appreciably larger than my monitors? Eventually I'm going to have a real living room and I'll want to put something in it.

Thanks dudes.
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SuperWes · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:47 am Post subject:

See, the problem Matt keeps reminding me of is if you cheap out on your TV you run the risk of getting one that some games simply can't really be played effectively on. A lot of HDTVs have lots of fancy (or not fancy) processing going on to make the picture look better than it should, and if your TV doesn't have a fast enough processor you'll end up playing fighting games and music games a few frames ahead of their actual timing.

As for my personal TV/PS3 thing, I returned my PS3 preorder and made a deal with my girl that I wouldn't get one until the Fall if we got this TV. I'm sorta sad, sorta relieved, but the way I see it at least I'll have an amazing looking TV to hold me over until when good games actually start coming out on the system. And hey, I might even be able to buy the games I want at budget prices!

-Wes
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

Cool man, thanks a lot for that. Yeah, actually I was looking at that very TV at Best Buy a couple weeks ago. I was impressed what you can get in a CRT these days for comparitively little. Thing is, the more time I spend at Best Buy, the more I start to think, "but what's a few hundred more, really?" and pretty soon I'm standing in front of the 32" Samsung LCD with my chin resting in my fist.

Is it me, or is Best Buy just a horrible place to assess a TV? It's so hard to compare the pictures in that light, and you never know for sure what kind of signal each one is playing, etc. They have those videos running that supposedly compare SD and HD with phony blur effects. The other thing is, when you're walking through the isles, you're looking at all the TVs from just a few feet away, and often peering closer. Even the fanciest HD picture looks pixelly and blurry when you get close enough. After a while a malaise settles in and distinctions become impossible...
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Lestrade · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:08 am Post subject:

Ooh, that HD CRT looks nice. I'm not sold on LCD TVs just yet. Too much guesswork (check for this! and this! and this! and if the TV doesn't come with a fucking computer in it, it may not actually do anything it advertises to do!). Man, remember the halcyon days of choosing a tube size, and participating in a brief in-store demo when buying a TV? Sigh...

My friend has a 30-some-inch CRT HDTV, and it is very nice. He's very happy with it.

EDIT:

If a CRT HDTV is basically a 1080i TV (with no 720p option), how large is the difference in quality between:

a) a standard 720p Xbox 360 game scaled up to 1080i
b) a native 1080i image

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Lestrade · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject:

No, Shaper, that's perfect, thank you. It tells me some of what I knew, some things I needed confirmed, and some important reminders.

I keep looking at this inexpensive Toshiba 26" 1080i CRT, and I want it. I want it because (a) it's cheap, and (b) I'm not a very detailed-oriented A/V enthusiast, so I think I would be perfectly happy with it. (i.e. I don't shed a tear when a game on my computer can't play at its maximum resolution). I just want a decent-quality, widescreen HDTV.

I wonder how much my end-of-year bonus will be this year? :-)

SuperWes · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject:

Here is a very interesting post about the capabilities of the Xbox 360 through Component cables vs. VGA cables. Most of it is focused on the HD DVD drive, but I would assume that a lot of it applies to the system itself as well. It looks like the VGA Cables improve things to a very high degree over the Component Cables. Interesting... Reading this stuff, I'm really, really hoping they find a way to do HDMI output on the 360 now. Not sure if it would actually take advantage of HDMI, given that the system wasn't built to output through them, but if they can do it well they should!

What's this thing?

-Wes
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

SuperWes · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:11 am Post subject:

TV get!

I'll post pictures soon, but for now I'll just say it's a really, really nice upgrade. And I'm now kinda sad that the Wii doesn't do HD. The difference between Zelda in 480p (I have component cables) and, uhhh, Cars (or anything else) for the Xbox 360 is like night and day. It's pretty.

Also, since my DVD player didn't do any sort of upscaling I decided to get an upscaling DVD player. I decided to go with with the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive! Holy crap, King Kong looks incredible...

Pictures soon.

-Wes
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Lestrade · Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject:

Shit yes!

I would love an HDTV now, but my mom needs dental surgery to the tune of about the price of a decent HDTV! Talk about fate stepping in!

Also, I would love if someone could provide a list of common HDTV brands and their quality: actual, not perceived. I saw a Prima TV that actually looked better than most other sets in the store, which surprised me.

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Lestrade · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:33 am Post subject:

Thanks, Shaper! I notice that Samsung frequently has the nicest enclosures for their sets.

EDIT: What's your personal opinion of this model? (Not that I'm buying anything anytime soon...)

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

On a nice HDTV like that one, should a 480i or 480p signal like that of Wii look as good as it does on an SD/EDTV? Or do low-res signals look worse on high-res TVs?
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

SuperWes · Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject:

Finally got a picture of my new TV uploaded. Check it out!

-Wes
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Lestrade · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:34 am Post subject:

Hey Wes, how are you diggin' that HD-DVD player?

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

He got rid of the HD-DVD player.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"