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God of War 2 as the epitome of storytelling

 
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:28 pm    Post subject: God of War 2 as the epitome of storytelling Reply with quote

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but the hour I spent with God of War 2 last night was probably one of the most amazing hours I've spent with any game ever. Everything that happens - and I mean every tiny, little thing, lends itself toward the game's story. It's the game that should be thrown down by game design teachers and said, "you must play this game to understand what storytelling in games can mean." Sure, the story might not be the best thing ever, and parts of it don't make total sense if you sit still and think about them for too long, but I've never seen a game and story mesh together as well as this.

I hope someone else is playing it and can back me up.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://shapermc.livejournal.com/112024.html

EDIT: Fuck you wes. I know what you're doing. I'm just boycotting this game.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GamaSutra wrote:
"'I'd be remiss if I didn't mention God of War II's storyline as one of the major draws of the title,' Graziani notes in particular. 'Simply put, this game rivals Hollywood as far as production values and artistry are concerned. Each snippet of Kratos' infernal struggle is lovingly crafted and the mood of the game positively pours out of the television screen. It's just unbelievably gorgeous.'"

This guy's kinda wrong, and kind of right. It's not fucking Shakespeare - it's closer to 300 than anything else - you're not playing for the story, and if you do you might as well be playing the first one. It's just that the storytelling - the way the game uses interactivity as a tool to manipulate the story and the story as a tool to manipulate the interactivity - is just fucking amazing. When you notice how all of the little things click together it's really, really hard not to be impressed. It's hard for me to really talk about this without possibly spoiling parts of the game, but the part of the game that picks up where the demo leaves off is absolutely amazing.

Ok, here's one thing that shouldn't spoil much: At one point you find yourself in the lair of an enormous Rock Titan. Initially it looks like a videogame area - you can use your weapon to go up or down the the rock wall as you fight generic enemies and figure out where to go next. The area's not too big, so it's not too frustrating, but it's big enough that you can look around. Eventually youl notice a few smooth, enormous rocks that block your path. Hit them a couple times with your weapon and they'll move. At this point you're forced to look a little closer and you realize that the smooth rocks are actually the Rock Titan's fingernails digging into the ground! You've got to go around hitting them until you find the one that will cause him to move his fingers up and let you pass. It's subtle, and it's videogamey as hell, but by doing this you're shown that the level is more than just a level. It has a place in the world of the game and if foreshadows what you'll be doing in the future (fighting an enormous titan).

Amazing.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we went into the sony store at the metreon last week and robot turrets came out of the walls and starting firing shadow of the colossus battle demo discs at us. aderack almost didn't make it out alive.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slap my ding dong and call me a grandfather clock but I REALLY want this game. It's fucking stupid, too, because I played the demo and it's like the EXACT same game as the first one (like, seriously, the EXACT same thing), but... jesus. Wes is kind of right. The storytelling is great. I mean -- the story being told is total BS, of course. But it's well told. And pretty compelling.

And GOD is it gorgeous.

I'm playing God Hand instead to atone for these sinful feelings.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's Linda Hunt, man, she's magical.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
but by doing this you're shown that the level is more than just a level. It has a place in the world of the game and if foreshadows what you'll be doing in the future


I've been thinking about storytelling (and the types of sory told in games). And I think that foreshadowing is one of the things that is missing. Likewise, I think that context is missing often due to the 'blank slate' approach. Ie. In many fantasy novels, the reason that they enter the world is often partially related to their current situation. Ie. To work out their subconsious problems. For example Labyrinth where the character gets fed up of baby-sitting her little brother then wishes that the goblins will take him away. But, when this happens she moves heaven and earth to get him back.

Silent Hill games seem to be exceptions to the rule where James (etc) ARE important to the situation. So yeah, Context is important. Alex Rider wouldn't be as good or believable if he wasn't a reluctant spy. I'd like to see more games where the character has context, maybe even a few 'reluctant heroes'.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been reading Steven Totilo's blog a lot lately (TGQ got linked today!), and today I found this quote from Newsweek's N'Gai Croal:

N'Gai Croal wrote:
We're definitely not on Sera anymore. This is incredible writing.

It's good enough to stand alongside the original myths. So fine, "Paper Mario" and "Yoshi's Island" were late-generation gameplay innovators, whereas God of War II is a late-generation refiner. But I seriously doubt their storytelling was as innovative as what Barlog and his collaborators have achieved here. If this were the story of Theseus, Jason or Perseus, Kratos would be their Minotaur, their Medusa, their Polyphemos; a test that they would face on the road to completing their respective quests. But it's Kratos' story, and these legendary heroes are the tests that we must face in order to complete the game. With this shift in perspective from the first game to the second embodied not only in the narrative, but also in the gameplay, the "gametelling" (that's my second neologism in this series, for those of you keeping score at home) in God of War II is easily among the best of any game I've played.


The "incredible writing" part of this we can discuss another time, but I REALLY like his use of the word "gametelling." I've been using the word "storytelling" as a way of describing how games use interactivity to get their story across, but this is maybe more descriptive. There's no confusion as to whether I'm talking about the plot or the way its told, there's just the confusion of trying to figure out exactly what the word means, which is fine in this case, since trying to define the word helps the reader consider exactly how the game fits it, and that's what you'd be talking about if you used that word anyway.

There are some other things said in the link above that sparked my interest as well. I'll have to admit that I'm not too keen on Greek Mythology; even so, the first God of War was just crazy enough for me to realize they were taking liberties with history. I hadn't really thought about it before reading Croal's description of God of War 2's story, but now I realize that I wasn't so completely convinced that liberties were being taken with this second game. I mean, obviously Kratos is a made up character, but the story comes off much more as Kratos being inserted into the world of the myths than the myths being forced onto Kratos' story. While less personal, as they noted, it does make for a much more believable story than the first game.

All this said, the ending revelation comes off as fairly generic and sort of hurts what they've set up. Like every game these days, God of War 2 ends in a cliffhanger so, while the rest of the story could still redeem their fallacies, based on the severity of the offense I'm not sure they'll continue to move in the right direction.

-Wes
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dark steve
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unskippable cutscenes Sad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark steve wrote:
unskippable cutscenes Sad


Only during the first play through the game. :/
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star Fox 64 played by the same rule, and that wasn't a bad game.

Right?...
Right!?... >.>

I hope this won't start a battle of emotocons.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should play a Star Fox game.

I mean, I have Starwing for my SNES, but apparently the PAL versions of SuperFX chips games didn't run as smoothly as NTSC ones.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
dark steve wrote:
unskippable cutscenes :(


Only during the first play through the game. :/


Still utterly unacceptable.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On one hand, while the production values are amazing and everything, it feels awfully cluttered for the theme park ride that it is. Considering that you always (from what i've seen) move in 100% straight lines from one setpiece to the next, why does Kratos have so many damn moves? He can double jump, climb walls, climb ladders, use grapple points, climb ropes either up or across, tightrope walk, and move across ceilings. What the hell for? Why does he need nine discrete special movements, many with their own individual control schemes, in a game where there's no exploration and that is visibly embarrassed by it's own lousy platforming?

Also STOP MAKING CRATE PUZZLES DAMMIT GUYS
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aerisdead wrote:
Mr. Mechanical wrote:
dark steve wrote:
unskippable cutscenes Sad


Only during the first play through the game. :/


Still utterly unacceptable.

Definitely. When you generally only play through games once, it's no consolation.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmauro wrote:
aerisdead wrote:
Mr. Mechanical wrote:
dark steve wrote:
unskippable cutscenes Sad


Only during the first play through the game. :/


Still utterly unacceptable.

Definitely. When you generally only play through games once, it's no consolation.

I don't see the problem here. The longest cutscene is like 30 seconds, and the cutscenes in God of War go a long way in reinforcing the context of the action (and really, 90% of what's great about GoW is context).

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
I don't see the problem here. The longest cutscene is like 30 seconds. And the cutscene reinforces the context of the action (and really, 90% of what's great about the game is context).


It genuinely doesn't matter how short they are. devs should never get away with:

unskippable cut scenes
unredefinable controls
no subtitles
no individual sound/music controls

And probably a few others. Usability and player choice in all is key. (this is in general - I'm not cussing GoW specifically, I haven't even played it.)
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aerisdead wrote:
It genuinely doesn't matter how short they are. devs should never get away with:

unskippable cut scenes
unredefinable controls
no subtitles
no individual sound/music controls

And probably a few others. Usability and player choice in all is key. (this is in general - I'm not cussing GoW specifically, I haven't even played it.)


Why not refine this to selectable levels, codes to unlock all unlockables, and all region language tracks?

Some of these could certainly be argued for, but I don't agree with a flat mandate that these things need to be there. If a game's cutscenes are there to enhance the experience while you play they don't need to be skippable. There's a problem when the producer thinks they add something to a game, but they really don't (see Black), but in God of War there's no question of whether or not these add to the game.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Some of these could certainly be argued for, but I don't agree with a flat mandate that these things need to be there. If a game's cutscenes are there to enhance the experience while you play they don't need to be skippable. There's a problem when the producer thinks they add something to a game, but they really don't (see Black), but in God of War there's no question of whether or not these add to the game.


This is absurd, Wes.

Here is a game, right? It places a 5 minute unskippable cut scene right before an insanely difficult boss. That you die on repeatedly.

The cut scene is there to enhance the experience, and it absoultely adds something to the battle (the first time you see it.)

The battle is absurdly hard for a variety of reasons, let say, and it's not irritating to die because it requires skill, let's say.

Are you telling me it's fine that that cut-scene is unskippable?

This happens loads of times in games.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aerisdead wrote:
SuperWes wrote:
Some of these could certainly be argued for, but I don't agree with a flat mandate that these things need to be there. If a game's cutscenes are there to enhance the experience while you play they don't need to be skippable. There's a problem when the producer thinks they add something to a game, but they really don't (see Black), but in God of War there's no question of whether or not these add to the game.


This is absurd, Wes.

Here is a game, right? It places a 5 minute unskippable cut scene right before an insanely difficult boss. That you die on repeatedly.

The cut scene is there to enhance the experience, and it absoultely adds something to the battle (the first time you see it.)

The battle is absurdly hard for a variety of reasons, let say, and it's not irritating to die because it requires skill, let's say.

Are you telling me it's fine that that cut-scene is unskippable?

This happens loads of times in games.

If a game has a five minute unskippable cutscene that they don't let you save after right before a boss it's got bigger problems than unskippable cutscenes.

That does happen and it totally sucks, but the problem isn't the unskippable cutscene, it's that the game isn't designed well. If it was designed well they would let you skip the cutscene after watching it the first time (I think Devil May Cry handles things this way), or let you save just prior to fighting the boss.

In God of War, the longest pre-boss cutscene is 10 seconds long, and bosses are rarely hard because they require skill to defeat, they're hard because you have to figure out how to fight them.

Basically, I just think it's bad to make a blanket statement that no game should have unskippable cutscenes, when good designers can make games with cutscenes so compelling and well-placed that you don't even notice that they aren't skippable. God of War 2 is a good example!

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark steve wrote:
why does Kratos have so many damn moves? He can double jump, climb walls, climb ladders, use grapple points, climb ropes either up or across, tightrope walk, and move across ceilings. What the hell for? Why does he need nine discrete special movements, many with their own individual control schemes, in a game where there's no exploration and that is visibly embarrassed by it's own lousy platforming?

Aparently there's a dodge button that you never use too.
aerisdead wrote:
unskippable cut scenes
unredefinable controls
no subtitles
no individual sound/music controls

add to that "no ability to invert camera" if you have to control a camera and I'm happy.
Also, there's a fine line here. If the cutscene is literally that (it removes full control from the player and requires them to just watch) then it should be skippable. If it is rendered in engine while you're still in control of the character, from a technical standpoint, it makes sense why you can't skip it. Like Gears of War has both talking points (which are in action cutscenes) and full cut scenes. You can skip the movie type cut scenes, but the ones where you're still technically in control of the character you can't skip. This is acceptable to me.

Also, so very few developers know how to properly balance music/sfx/voice it isn't funny. When one of these things is off and there aren't seperate volume controls I go crazy.

AND: subtitles should default to off if they're speaking in english.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Also, so very few developers know how to properly balance music/sfx/voice it isn't funny. When one of these things is off and there aren't seperate volume controls I go crazy.


this bothered me in half-life 2 until i realized it made me happy to have to turn the volume up so much higher than normal to hear alyx shouting over the hail of gunfire.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethoscapade wrote:
this bothered me in half-life 2 until i realized it made me happy to have to turn the volume up so much higher than normal to hear alyx shouting over the hail of gunfire.

The thing that drove me crazy about HL2 was that I played it on the 360 (XBox BC) and coudn't turn off the surround sound. I was playing it in a hotel through the tv speakers. So when ever anyone was talking behind me I couldn't hear them at all. I'm looking forward to playing the proper 360 version so hard.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't you realise that God of War was meant as a satire of the discovery of the americas? Kratos is a parody of the conquistadors.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if I could disagree with you much more, Wes. I'm thinking the "gametelling" you're talking about is undercut entirely by the first level, which establishes the mode of play as "fight many many small things and then fight the big thing at the end". Any "foreshadowing" we see here follows the lines of "see the big thing off in the distance, make your way to it and fight it," or "see your allies fighting in the distance, make your way to them and fight the things that have killed them by the time you get there."

Not to mention the story itself, told through one of the most egregious cases of over-narration I've ever seen, and all amounting to "here's somebody from a Greek myth somewhere; better kill him!"

Some things I actually like:
Surprisingly, the puzzles/setpieces. One thing they do well, perhaps better than anything else in the game, is present them first as not puzzles at all, or something clearly unsolvable with an immediate exit available. Then you loop around killing stuff, and find yourself back at that puzzle, having acquired the piece you need. This process is actually underpresented and consistently logical, and holds more tact than all other elements of the game combined. SPOILER for example: There's one place where you pull out a block that's in front of a door you need to go through. When you drag it out of the doorway and onto the platform on which you're standing, the whole platform creaks and starts to tilt toward the death pit right below. Your natural reaction is to run quickly through the unblocked doorway to avoid imminent death. Then you proceed and kill lots and lots, and you eventually arrive at some other platform surrounded by death pit, and as you walk to the edge the camera pulls out a little to reveal a cable in the foreground. You can't quite gauge the distance, and if you try jumping for it you fail and die. If, using the GoW gameplay philosophy of SMASH EVERYTHING, you break the statues in the background, you'll find a block behind one you can push out to reveal a doorway. If you go through, you'll see you're back at that first platform, but since you're fluent in platforming, you think "No backtracking!" So maybe you take another try at jumping for the rope and die again. But then you realize you're back at the tipping platform with one more weight, and what at first seemed to be an environmental hazard is actually a puzzle. Then you think "Oh yes, this is God of War, of course I'm not supposed to be afraid of it- I'm supposed to break it!" It's a remarkable feat of consistent internal logic.

Backtracking and the camera in general. You never need to backtrack in this game, but if you do anyway, you'll find yourself running toward the camera. You just hold Down to run toward the camera, and it'll navigate the passages for you. So you can never see where you're going, but you'll still get there because the game is navigating, but at the same time it's gently letting you know you're going the wrong direction. There's also something charmingly old school about general camera obfuscation as well, following 2D platformer rules of "if it's not on the main path and you can't see it, but you can get there anyway, it's probably a secret item."

A very nice lack of loading screens. Perhaps they're buffering behind the awful cutscenes. There are some instances of "featureless hallway to the next area," but they're either done in a style that's consistent with the surroundings or in a way (through a zoomed out camera or an approach to a massive structure) which highlights the scale of the environment. You're seldom left with that feeling of loading boredom.

Physicality. There's a lot of button mashing. It hurts your hand after a while, it's probably bad for your joints. But it's surprisingly good at conveying strain and frantic combat. Using your right hand to wiggle the left analog as quickly as possible, then scrambling back to the face button pad for timed hits gives this a sense of physical urgency I don't think I've experienced on a traditional gamepad before.

But don't you try to tell me the production as a whole, especially in relation to the story, is at all consistent. The action in the cutscenes actually pales in comparison the action in-game, and both cutscenes and narration seriously disrupt the flow of the game. What the hell is Generic British Middle-Aged Lady #32 doing telling the story of Kratos The Ultraviolent?

Part three could be astounding, if they dropped the CG cutscenes entirely, took a page from the HL2/RE4 "active cutscene" handbook (think about the Krauser fight as imposed on that first Zeus scene, but where winning wasn't even an option and you were fighting for some scrap of survival. That could be amazing!), and if they absolutely need narration, find a way to fit it in (over) the gameplay. GoW is an exercise in immediate physical conflict, and anything that detracts from that is a flaw in design.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simplicio wrote:
What the hell is Generic British Middle-Aged Lady #32 doing telling the story of Kratos The Ultraviolent?


Well, in museums, all old violent stories get told by generic middle aged women.
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: God of War 2 as the epitome of storytelling Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Everything that happens - and I mean every tiny, little thing, lends itself toward the game's story.


Funnily enough this is what I think about Manhunt, and what impresses me the most about it. It just all hangs together so well. It always impresses me to look at the model of Cash and see the Earpiece that he hears the director's voice through. Likewise, the way that he is still wearing the prison uniform that he starts out in. Even the way that you can see all the weapons that he has, such as the bat slung over the shoulders, the razor wire hung on his belt. I think that other designers would probably have forgotten these little details.

I'm also impressed by the way that it mainly forgoes cutscenes, and expresses itself through the voice-overs from the director "watch out, or he'll call his cheery buddies!". (Personally though I would prefer to see these production values and skills lavished on something less distasteful ie. something with more heart like a next gen remake of SOS Final Escape or Raw Danger (SOS has similar attention to detail but inferior graphics/sound).

Of course the story as it stands isn't very "clever/complicated" but it is about par for horror gaming / films.
Well, that's my vote for most impressive in-game storytelling.
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how you can call Manhunt a game without heart.
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