The Gamer's Quarter

Keidrych · . Joined: 23 Mar 2008 Posts: 2

It looks like an interesting little dungeon crawler, doesn't it?

http://www.atlus.com/baroque/

Now, I have a problem. I am thoroughly enjoying Shiren the Wanderer for the DS, and the optional dungeons will probably keep me occupied until I die. My problem is that gaming as a whole doesn't know how to review this type of game.

The fundamental design concepts of most roguelikes are so alien and hostile that most people define them as bad, instead of different. What I need to know is if any of you lovely people have played Baroque in any of its previous iterations, and if so, what did you think?

What I enjoy about Shiren isn't necessarily the dungeon crawl, but more so the process of learning the game and negotiating hostile random situations. Many of my favorite moments involve finding myself in the middle of a monster house and having to use all of the tools at my disposable in order to stay alive.

Does Baroque facilitate these sorts of situations, or is it a slog involving upgrading your equipment until you no longer have to try?

sediment · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject:

no clue. these art concepts are pretty sweet though, and i have observed lordgek's avatar is one of the downloadable ones from their site.

so he may know something!
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LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

daphaknee · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject:

isnt dessgeega trying to write an article about masocore games? games that actively hate the player?

like i wanna be the guy, castlevania 2, adom, shiren, mighty jill off, etc

games that have it out for you
games that WANT YOU TO LOSE

the masochistic gamer is on the rise!

dessgeega · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject:

SuperWes · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject:

dessgeega · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject:

actually, yes, only i wanna be the guy falls under that definition. mighty jill off was not actually designed as a masocore game, though some people associate it with "punishing platformers". (thematically, it certainly is!)
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simplicio · . Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091

The question: is it worth playing when I have access to Shiren?

I mean, my flash cart doesn't even get play anymore.
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daphaknee · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:08 am Post subject:

how can you not count castlevania 2?

there are platform holes where you fall and it sends you back to the beginning

and that paert where you have to jumpp

other examples

ninja gaiden nes serties
castlevania 1 and 3

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

This just in (well actually a few days ago)

Baroque HAS NOT EVEN BEEN REVIEWED BY EGM YET! The guy who started this rumor later said something to the effect of, "Oh, my bad, I guess it was some other game..."

So now we're only down to Nintendo Power's scathing 3/10 which is not clear they "get" how roguelikes are supposed to work.

This game may end up being fertilizer but, at this point we only have NP's word on that.

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

Castlevania 2 is not actually that hard. Considering that it's the single NES game that I ever managed to finish on my own (and one of two that I've finished period, the other being Aria of Sorrow), I can't see it being that difficult.

SuperWes · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:

So wait Baroque is a roguelike? I always thought it was more of a standard RPG with random dungeons ala Time Stalkers (or whatever that Dreamcast RPG was), but more difficult and with shittier art direction.

I've got to say... Most games with random level creation are horrible. The randomness is usually done under the guise of replayability, but it's really out of a desire to keep from having to actually design compelling levels. And if you're making random levels that aren't compelling, why would people want to replay your game anyways? Shiren is excused from this because the game is designed with such a small scale in mind that replayability is something that's going to happen on an half-hour basis rather than after a 40-hour drudge through hell.

So yes! I'm guessing Nintendo power's not too far off on their review, but I haven't played Baroque yet so it's just a guess!

-Wes
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daphaknee · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject:

scratchmonkey when you are a child you beat the hardest games because they are all you have

like i beat ninja gaiden, kid nikki radical ninja nad fuckign SOLSTICE when i was little

i play them now and im like what, what is happening

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

No really, I had access to a lot of NES games (although I didn't have a machine myself, my friend did and I spent a lot of time at his house) and Simon's Quest was the only one that was easy enough for me to beat. The only other one that I beat was Lifeforce; that was in co-op though.

(I also go back to it every couple of years or so and beat the hell out of it.)

ETA: It's hard in the sense that if you don't have a walkthrough/hints to get through the completely incoherent design in certain spots (bang your head on deborah cliff indeed); however, the game itself is pretty easy. Even Dracula goes down without much of a fight.

bleak · . Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 258

SuperWes · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject:

Hospital Zone · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:43 am Post subject:

parkbench · . Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Posts: 145

I think it's saying something less about stochastic processes in general and more specific algorithms. A game like Civ 4 always feels fresh because of the way it randomises--obviously, based on the blocks its given. Shiren, Dwarf Fortress...these are random but somehow maintain a freshness. The repetitiveness comes from un-cleverness; the good random designs know how to take good "chunks" and have them intermingle, resulting in something that (should) almost never feel tired or repetitive.
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LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

daphaknee · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject:

bleak · . Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 258

how much sense does the game make with a walkthrough
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Isfet · . Joined: 27 Oct 2006 Posts: 107 Location: A New York

so Baroque. i'm interested in it and i'll probably pick it up, but is there any real reason to get the Wii version over the PS2 version?

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

It's really awful. You can tell the people designing it have only seen dungeon crawl games through screenshots because of shit like your main weapon being stolen(not quite the same as being disarmed in ADOM, don't even draw the comparison), or because the game not attempting to draw anyone in. It is weird and hopes that weirdness is enough to motivate the common idiot to plumb for peanuts and corn kernels in this massive septic tank.

Ehrgeiz's dungeon mode is far superior. I know most of you are idiots and are going to try to disagree here, but Baroque really comes up short. It's like Monster Hunter without any direction or attempt to motivate the player. It's just a fucking void that will force you to play it because some dumb fuck (much like you, yeah you) is going to go on and on about it.

It's a game that relies on anyone who talks about it being completely full of shit.
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Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

What the hell is this shit

Keep it in the bedroom, ladies

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

I think he's entertaining himself on a forum where I got banned over Baroque so they can all sit around and insist I'm self aggrandizing without me doing anything unfortunate, like defending myself.

It's just a stale game that lacks any of the variety that normally makes these games interesting, and it's really sad that everyone thinks saying "don't like it, you must not be used to rogue likes" cuts it as a defense.
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Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

Actually I have a pretty long history on that site, and it's full of mincing mealymouthed shits, that ban had less to do with my posting and more to do with who I am.

The game just really misses it on some serious rogue shit, like don't en masse frustrating enemies(the snatcher guys, it's almost best to ignore them and keep more weapons on you than anything else), or accommodate varied play styles(why couldn't we have something more than a single type of weapon, why can't I cast magic?). The weapons really aren't interesting, I think the neatest things I ended up with were a super slow high damage sword, and one that levels up every floor you go down. Also a sword that said it had an extra attack but didn't.

With all this talk about rogue I really was expecting something more similar to it. The random generating matrix seems to involve pulling a few premade rooms out of memory and stringing them together with some corridors. The special boxes are kind of interesting, they're definitely not anything new. It just lacks so much when compared to the robust games in the genre it's being shoehorned into.

The pacing of the game makes it feel as if it should be turn based, but instead you have to grapple with horrible camera controls (when you press the snap to character heading button the screen actually blacks out), so when you run into some tough enemies you can't maneuver very well.

It's really annoying to assert that people don't like the game because it's a RL and too surly for everyone to see the heart of gold. Even as a RL it's lacking, I'm just kind of disappointed since I really loved Persona 3 and heard all this Roguelike talk. However, the game just doesn't have in it what makes Roguelikes good.

It's weird, and the dungeons have some of a charm, but ultimately when you get hung up on something that isn't just annoying, but annoying in that it represents a lack of effort it's pretty hard to get charmed again.
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Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT

bleak · . Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 258

Man from the way everyone is apologizing for this game it really makes me not want to play it ever. Plus it's real time? Fuuuuck that.
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LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

SuperWes · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:23 am Post subject:

Hey guys, I preordered Pokemon Mysterious Dungeon: Darkness edition this weekend. I'm not at all interested in Baroque. Just sayin'

-Wes
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getter77 · . Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 24

I dunno, in my experience, I can't say that I've ever come across a bad/unworkable Graphical Roguelike or variant of some sort thereof---and I'm pretty sure that this point that I either have or have played all that are available in English at least. (wonders about Windaria DS, the other Torneko games on PS/GBA, DC/N64/PC Shiren games, etc)

I figure the INTENT of Baroque wasn't some grand gesture to bring in new blood to the Roguelike ranks vai real-time good times, but rather just the spin/style they happened to put on the game to shake things up, with apparently mixed results, for the widely varying tastes of all the established enthusiasts out there.

All told, I can't help but view each new console or handheld graphical roguelike as a TREAT, even if a variant, considering how rarely we get more adventures of the sort in gaming compared to most other genres or sub-genres.

Good on ya SuperWes...I wish I could actually pre-order games online without there being mysterious (ha!) problems with my shipping info that always seem to never be an issue after the game has been out nigh a week among regular Amazon sellers and the like. Sad

I'm so getting both Time and Darkness to help me get through work as Shiren has and Izuna 2 will also eventually do the same.

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

daphaknee · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:44 am Post subject:

worm i keep seeing atlus on this game at the store and i dont know what to do!

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

Just gamefly it. Persona 3 FES should be on the shelf right next to it, and it's a game that is a culmination of much more effort than Baroque. Beyond that Baroque is a pretty crunchy dungeon type game, and you'd really enjoy something like Fate much more.
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Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT

squidlarkin · . Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 100

Guys, Baroque certainly isn't the best roguelike ever made, but I'm pretty sure it's the best realtime graphical roguelike ever made. As someone who finds this microscopic subgenre compelling, I'm pretty pleased with it!

getter77 · . Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 24

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

I'm never going to buy crap in hopes that they make a better sequel. People who esteem crap and fool other people into buying it should be fucking shot.

getter77 · . Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 24

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

You just can't look at taste that way, it makes no sense.
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Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

Worm · . Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142

Yeah, but there are games that are much more reasonably tense. "Will a bunch of shitty monsters swarm me and the bad controls doom me?" and "Will they steal an important item and run off at 1.2x my top speed?" aren't the kind of tension I'm looking for.

Just put cracked firmware on your 360, then every game is tense! "Will my account get banned?"
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Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT

LordGek · . Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 214

Seriously. Worm, those snatcher guys are the LEAST of your problems in that game. I swear it really sounds like in ONE of your runs one of those guys stole your main weapon and then it became, THIS GAME IS IMPOSSIBLE AS IT IS FILLED WITH MONSTERS THAT WILL ALWAYS STEAL YOUR MAIN WEAPON. It's not that it would be worth your or anyone's time to play a game you don't enjoy any further but I have issues with these generalizations that I just know came from very limited play.

I think I've made it one of my own little campaigns that MORE roguelikes bring in item stealers and transformers as it is so LAME, IMHO, in games like Fate that you'll NEVER need to worry about losing any important equipment.

Did you ever play Shire, Worm, they had a whole line of creatures that I KNOW would have had you throwing your DS against the wall in disgust if you couldn't handle the Snatchers of Baroque! In Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer there is a line of floating eyeballs who's nifty attack is to hypnotize your character. While you character is under hypnosis he'll use items in his pack at random, take off equipment, even throw his weapon at a random baddy (sometimes the eyeball itself). Throwing an item at a beasty in Shiren is just like it is in Baroque which means it gets absorbed by the monster when hit. Many a player has lost a weapon they'd been building up over dozens of runs when the eyeball made it toss his weapon at something (thankfully it is one of the rarer actions that the eyeball can induce, but it still hurts). I think, at least to me, it's made more painful since it is YOUR CHARACTER (true, not under your control at the moment) that tosses the weapon away...so it's not technically the eyeball that destroyed your weapon, YOU DID!

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

I want you guys to ring each other up and have this conversation mano-a-mano. Be sure to record it for us!

helicopterp · . Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia

Excerpts in a forthcoming TGQ issue? Dessgeega, make it happen.
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