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Harveyjames
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 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: The 8 "Man Vs." Games (renamed) |
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Someone come up with a topic
Let's tackle the big issues! |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Why does physical combat seem to be the only way for a game to give a player "conflict" in the greater sense of the word?
GO!
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Dracko
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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It's the most blatant, most primal, and most directly representive form of conflict. It's run the current of literary works for centuries. It's the easiest to put in place and can be easily rewarding, not to mention the whole "indulge your fantasies" aspect.
I think honestly, we've reached a stage where it's relatively easy to create conflict away from that though, and that it's likely we're to see less violent forms of conflict enter mainstream gaming.
It's not a bad thing essentially, but I'd lie if I say I didn't wish to see it played around with in more interesting ways. To a certain regard, that's already happened with stealth gameplay becoming trendy.
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helicopterp
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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I would argue that a greater (in terms of quantity) source of videogame conflict is in the form of man (or whatever kind of avatar) versus his environment. But that may just be because I have played too much Mario 64 this week. Except that there is no such thing as too much Mario 64.
On the subject of stealth gameplay, I like the concept because it treats enemy characters more as part of the environment with which the player must negotiate than as individuals who should be defeated, when it works correctly.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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You still stomp stuff in Mario 64, and have to fight bosses. You can't dodge them.
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Lestrade
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Good suggestion, Shaper! I think it's be answered already, so let's work on constructive solutions!
I'd argue that Brain Age is the best example we have of "Man Versus Himself"—I mean, quite literally. The only one I'm trying to defeat is my stupid, math-averse brain.
In a similar vein, I think Silent Hill 2 is an example of "Man Versus Himself", though it's not apparent. But even in that title, you fight things.
Adventure games were and are good examples of gameplay without combat. They were combinations of "Man Versus Himself" and "Man Versus His Environment". I mean, Myst?
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, in Mario spikes are as much an "enemy" as the Koopas and Goombas, which may be part of why the mascotization of the Mushroom Kingdom has been such a failure.
And as for physical combat or conflict, it's relatively simple for the gamer and the game to understand and to use to "communicate" with each other. The spectrum of possible input is so restricted by the devices that we use to play videogames and by the ability of software to interpret input that more complex interactions are either impossible or extremely limited (and thus usually none too compelling). |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Lestrade wrote: | Good suggestion, Shaper! I think it's be answered already, so let's work on constructive solutions!
I'd argue that Brain Age is the best example we have of "Man Versus Himself"—I mean, quite literally. The only one I'm trying to defeat is my stupid, math-averse brain.
In a similar vein, I think Silent Hill 2 is an example of "Man Versus Himself", though it's not apparent. But even in that title, you fight things.
Adventure games were and are good examples of gameplay without combat. They were combinations of "Man Versus Himself" and "Man Versus His Environment". I mean, Myst?
I will contribute more later! |
Some adventure games include direct conflict. I'm not just talking about punch-ups in the Indiana Jones games, but you've got, say, knife dodging in The Last Express, or have a few games where you eventually have to perform a Use gun on guard type action.
Not really criticism, because I think these games do it well, but just saying.
I think the Metal Gear Solid series, particularly 2 and 3, have a good approach on combat, and not just because of the stealth option.
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helicopterp
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | You still stomp stuff in Mario 64, and have to fight bosses. You can't dodge them. |
That's very true, and I certainly appreciate that the source of conflict within the game varies. But I think that the essence of the game, and what it consists primarily of, is the platforming, which is as man vs. environment as you can get. The bonus stages particularly reflect this focus.
To Lestrade's post:
I think that the man vs. himself factor (which Brain Age effectively isolates) can almost be considered a gateway to all other sources of conflict. Before you can engage the environment, or engage an enemy, or engage house decorating (like in Animal Crossing!) you have to engage yourself and measure out how and how much you are prepared to interact. This may be so intrinsic a concept in the nature of games that it is mostly a non-issue, though.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | I think honestly, we've reached a stage where it's relatively easy to create conflict away from that though, and that it's likely we're to see less violent forms of conflict enter mainstream gaming. |
Ok, so going with this train of thought, what are the less violent forms going to be?
Also, another interesting thing. What are the 8 (iirc?) "Man Vs." and what are good examples of games for each of them?
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helicopterp
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure what "(iirc?)" means, but I'll take a stab at one we haven't mentioned.
Man vs. Time
Three Examples, all executed differently:
1. WarioWare: Twisted!
2. San Francisco Rush at an arcade
3. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
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Harveyjames
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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You know, the most fun I have in Mario 64 is when I'm just jumping about outside the castle. I only enter the castle when that gets boring. I could just as easily switch the console off, though. I don't need the conflict to enjoy Mario 64.
Man Vs. The Environment / Nature
Example: Ocarina of Time - you go from a bewildered little boy who can barely uproot a bush to a mighty warrior who can seemingly shape the landscape around him (can pick up massive rocks, knows every last nook and cranny of the land, knows how to slay every last beast and has plundered all its treasures- Hyrule is a big titted bitch and he has fucked it, mastered it and milked it dry). |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | Dracko wrote: | | I think honestly, we've reached a stage where it's relatively easy to create conflict away from that though, and that it's likely we're to see less violent forms of conflict enter mainstream gaming. |
Ok, so going with this train of thought, what are the less violent forms going to be?
Also, another interesting thing. What are the 8 (iirc?) "Man Vs." and what are good examples of games for each of them? |
Conflicts of interest. See Frontier Developments' The Outsider, where there is no plan for a storyline proper, simply different goals and ambitions between individuals and parties, and you as player have to tackle this political soup. Sure, gunplay will probably be an option, but the point remains, the greater picture isn't one of mass genocide (I'd rather games of that calibre be honest about it, actually).
We've had exploration games and such since the very start, so warfare isn't always a focus. Why it's an easy avenue of expression however, I can't really say. When was the last time you saw a movie or read a book without some form of violence, after all?
What I want to know is where do action-adventure games like Prince of Persia and Out of this World stand in all of this?
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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You guys have played Phoenix Wright, right?
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | Why does physical combat seem to be the only way for a game to give a player "conflict" in the greater sense of the word? |
Sports, Driving, Puzzle, Adventure, Sim-Games, and Pinball games would all like to disagree with you.
Action games, Fighters, Shooters, Platformers, and RTS games are really the genres that are based on combat, and I'm not that removing or abstracting that combat into something else would really add anything to their effectiveness as games.
Maybe what we really need are new genres.
-Wes
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Nana Komatsu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Or to all start playing bishoujo games! |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Man Vs. Society: Half-Life 2. Not only is this an exceptionally apparent aspect of the game, but it also does it spectacularly.
Man Vs. Supernatural: Fatal Frame. This takes the essence of the theme of literature and makes it even stronger by the use of Camera (a voyeuristic object) as your only tool in which to “combat” the supernatural.
Man Vs. Man: Street Fighter. While the epitomy of this theme, it spawned arcades sprawling with metaphorical and literal representations.
Man Vs. Machine: R-Type: To explain all this would take too long, just take my word on it.
Man Vs. Nature: Roguelikes and Metal Gear Solid 3: Metal Gear Solid three gets the nod for the food aspects (not only eating nature and the way it heals you, but also that if you don’t play the game in too long a time it spoils). Really the hunger systems of roguelikes gets the win on this. I wish I could site a better example of a wilderness survival games (Cabela’s Sport Hunting!) but I can’t really off the top of my head.
Man Vs. Time: Zelda: Majora’s Mask and Metroid: Ok, metroid is just for the after motherbrain literal reference. Majora’s Mask is much more consistant with the theme.
Man Vs. God: Final Fantasy XXX: Low blow, I know, but jRPGs are pretty much the summation of this theme.
Man Vs. Technology: Chrono Trigger: It has a good section on this, but isn’t a prominent theme.
These are just off the top of my head. I didn’t think too hard about it and they probably aren’t even the most suiting examples of these themes.
| SuperWes wrote: | | Sports, Driving, Puzzle, Adventure, Sim-Games, and Pinball games would all like to disagree with you. |
Ahh, but aren't most sports based around physical combat? Sim-games can be as well. One of the best selling car/racing games around is about the physical combat of a car with either other cars or the environment (burnout, not twisted metal, although that's another story). Pinball could be argued but I won't get into it because that gets into what I was saying about "conflict" not "gameplay". By that I mean for how the designer/programmer/developer/yourbrother/whoever wanted to express conflict within the narrative (not story, narrative is what unfolds as you interact with the game. The more unspoken aspect of the game, how it connects you into the world). So, that leaves puzzle games and pinball games out of the equation.
NOW! This isn't to say it IS the only way (physical combat) but that it is in 80%+ of the situations. On top of that I will just say that the exception proves the rule. But that's not what I'm getting at...
| SuperWes wrote: | | Maybe what we really need are new genres. |
Which is why I brought up Drako's quote about less violent forms of conflict entering mainstream gaming.
It's really not a huge issue. Physical combat has always been the great draw in popular culture, and in great drawings of man. But when it comes down to it the great forms of art and literature that seem to span the ages best are less to non-violent.
All this said and done, some of the best games at weaving a tale through narrative and story are violent in nature. Silent Hill 2 not only covers many of the "man vs" aspects, but it also covers one of the least recognized in games (as pointed out previously, man vs self and I mean this in story. Almost every game is a story onto itself of man vs himself to finish it. The game is also obviously man vs. supernatural on many levels.). I still feel that Silent Hill 2 is the best game at telling a story and its use of narrative, even if the game is clunky as hell and the voice acting isn't even on par with other mediums. It uses the strengths that games have (and even physical combat) to really say something. What it says isn't easy to say either.
| Mister Toups wrote: | | You guys have played Phoenix Wright, right? |
Do you know how many people die in that game? *nudge*
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Nana Komatsu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Man vs. The Man - Beyond Good and Evil. |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Nana Komatsu wrote: | | Man vs. The Man - Beyond Good and Evil. |
I think that's man vs. society (also partially man vs. machine).
Sonic The Hedgehog (the original) is pretty much Nature vs. Man
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Nana Komatsu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Man + Man ^______^ kekeke - Final Fantasy VIII |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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That's a whole other beast altogether.
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Nana Komatsu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Woman vs Woman -
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dessgeega
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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i'll fight you nana
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TheRumblefish
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | Man Vs. Machine: R-Type: To explain all this would take too long, just take my word on it. |
This reminds me of years long gone, especially those heated debates on the Shmups forum regarding R-Type Final and it's intertwining message with the rest of the series. Good stuff.
Any more games with this theme?
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Redeye
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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For a moment there I was thinking of Xenophobia, so I looked up R-Type.
neat.
Seems like man&his machine vs. aliens who are part machine.
Which is kind of an interesting distinction since we are already cyborgs to some extent.
"The humans living inside their technology in *dry* symbiosis" versus "the evil bad aliens who have physically merged with their technology in *wet* symbiosis."
Then there's Mechwarrior. (man&machine vs. man&machine)
Big Dicks for everyone!
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Nana Komatsu wrote: | | Man vs. The Man - Beyond Good and Evil. |
more like man vs. poorly thought out straw man.
The Man vs. Man - shaq fu?
man vs. manga - comix zone?
man vs. flan - cooking mama?
marvel vs. capcom - marvel vs. capcom?
...
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simplicio
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Man vs. Himself: Mr. Driller
Man vs. Time: Sands of Time series
Man vs. Nature: Notrium |
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Harveyjames
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | Man Vs. Society: Half-Life 2. Not only is this an exceptionally apparent aspect of the game, but it also does it spectacularly.
Man Vs. Supernatural: Fatal Frame. This takes the essence of the theme of literature and makes it even stronger by the use of Camera (a voyeuristic object) as your only tool in which to “combat” the supernatural.
Man Vs. Man: Street Fighter. While the epitomy of this theme, it spawned arcades sprawling with metaphorical and literal representations.
Man Vs. Machine: R-Type: To explain all this would take too long, just take my word on it.
Man Vs. Nature: Roguelikes and Metal Gear Solid 3: Metal Gear Solid three gets the nod for the food aspects (not only eating nature and the way it heals you, but also that if you don’t play the game in too long a time it spoils). Really the hunger systems of roguelikes gets the win on this. I wish I could site a better example of a wilderness survival games (Cabela’s Sport Hunting!) but I can’t really off the top of my head.
Man Vs. Time: Zelda: Majora’s Mask and Metroid: Ok, metroid is just for the after motherbrain literal reference. Majora’s Mask is much more consistant with the theme.
Man Vs. God: Final Fantasy XXX: Low blow, I know, but jRPGs are pretty much the summation of this theme.
Man Vs. Technology: Chrono Trigger: It has a good section on this, but isn’t a prominent theme.
These are just off the top of my head. I didn’t think too hard about it and they probably aren’t even the most suiting examples of these themes.
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The problem with this is you're mostly talking about game storylines rather than what you do in the game. Half-Life 2 wouldn't play very differently if you were told the Stormtroopers were zombies, or robots, or the ghosts of zombie robots, but it would warrant being put in a different one of your categories.
So far I think we've got
Man vs. Time
Man vs. Nature/Environment (e.g. the world the game throws you into, not OMG TEH WHOLE IN TEH OZONE LAYER)
Man vs. Man
Are there really 5 more of these? |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | | The problem with this is you're mostly talking about game storylines rather than what you do in the game. Half-Life 2 wouldn't play very differently if you were told the Stormtroopers were zombies, or robots, or the ghosts of zombie robots, but it would warrant being put in a different one of your categories. |
Yeah, I was going to ask for examples of this in gameplay rather than story.
Man Vs. Society: Toejam & Earl (while aliens they do go around running from humans who are crazy representations of society.)
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dhex
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: |
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chronicles of riddick manages to be a good combination of stealth and action, changing back and forth from environmental puzzles to killing puzzles to environmental puzzles again.
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dessgeega
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: |
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i think we need to recontextualize videogame conflict not in terms of theme but in terms of dynamic. (eliminating sexist language is just an added bonus!) hence:
player versus player - conflict is supplied by another human player (external to the game code) interacting with the same game. (a multiplayer deathmatch in doom.) this type of conflict is often symmetrical.
player versus enemy - conflict is supplied by "thinking" opponents (internal to the game code) who are controlled by the game. (pac-man.) this type of conflict is often asymmetrical.
player versus environment - conflict is with the rules that govern the game and gameworld. (in boulderdash, boulders do not seek the player out, but gravity may cause a boulder to fall onto her head). this type of conflict is always asymmetrical.
player versus time - a time limit or force of entropy (in tetris, falling tetrads speed up as the game persists.) this type of conflict is always asymmetrical.
whether the computer enemies are zombies or ghosts or mad monks is interchangable. the conflict is the same.
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Harveyjames
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: |
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That's pretty much what I was trying to say. I'm in favor of keeping 'man' though. Man man man!
I just like saying 'man'. |
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dessgeega
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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i like sticking it to the man.
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simplicio
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | i think we need to recontextualize videogame conflict not in terms of theme but in terms of dynamic. (eliminating sexist language is just an added bonus!) hence:
player versus player - conflict is supplied by another human player (external to the game code) interacting with the same game. (a multiplayer deathmatch in doom.) this type of conflict is often symmetrical.
player versus enemy - conflict is supplied by "thinking" opponents (internal to the game code) who are controlled by the game. (pac-man.) this type of conflict is often asymmetrical.
player versus environment - conflict is with the rules that govern the game and gameworld. (in boulderdash, boulders do not seek the player out, but gravity may cause a boulder to fall onto her head). this type of conflict is always asymmetrical.
player versus time - a time limit or force of entropy (in tetris, falling tetrads speed up as the game persists.) this type of conflict is always asymmetrical.
whether the computer enemies are zombies or ghosts or mad monks is interchangable. the conflict is the same. |
See, Mr. Driller and Every Extend make me want to add a "player versus self" category. Think that's valid or would you just file it under pvenvironment? |
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Redeye
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| simplicio wrote: |
"player versus self" category. |
Planescape: Torment ?
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, games can cross categories, just like literature/film. Really though the only games that would be Player VS Self would be ones that break the fourth wall down (like Brain Training) where there is no avatar.
Also Player VS. Supernatural is going to have a different dynamic than simple player vs. enemy. Look at Silent Hill 4 and the way the ghosts don’t die in that game, or how you need to photograph them in Fatal Frame. It is a different dynamic and worth noting.
Player VS. Society could easily be The Sims or something like Harvest Moon, but then again that’s also Player VS Nature.
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Harveyjames
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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If we're having Player vs. Supernatural then we should also have Player vs. Fungus because Super Mario Bros. has got little mushroom men.
Last edited by Harveyjames on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 2613
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Redeye wrote: | | simplicio wrote: |
"player versus self" category. |
Planescape: Torment ? |
Metal Gear Solid 2?
Shade?
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antitype
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Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Introversion's Defcon ("everybody dies") is a game that does a good job of obscuring physical conflict while still utilizing it on a massive scale, rendering it even more unnerving than the most intensely direct violence.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of, heard about their new game, Subversion?
And what about Uplink? That's a fairly "non-violent" form of interaction that is still utterly sinister.
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antitype
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Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I have not played Uplink, but I am really looking forward to Subversion. After Darwinia and Defcon, Introversion are definitely on my list of developers to watch.
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GSL
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 725
Location: Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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I call bullshit on R-Type as "Man vs. Machine." Machine might be the vehicle in which a fair amount of encountered enemies reside, but if you look into the series' grim backstory (most apparent in R-Type Final), it's really something more akin to man vs. man's legacy, human arrogance, folly, etc. etc. etc.
And really--I know Final Fantasy X got pretty strenuous in its man vs. God wanking, but will we ever get past the "I hate you dad and am will kill god LOLZ!!11" phase here? If people really think the series needs to be shoehorned into an archetype for the sake of this discussion (though I can't imagine why, as there are much better titles to cast this sort of critical eye on), couldn't we at least do something like Man vs. The Epic Quest or anything else slightly less ridiculous? |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Greatsaintlouis wrote: | | I call bullshit on R-Type as "Man vs. Machine." Machine might be the vehicle in which a fair amount of encountered enemies reside, but if you look into the series' grim backstory (most apparent in R-Type Final), it's really something more akin to man vs. man's legacy, human arrogance, folly, etc. etc. etc. |
Well, I mean it is the legacy of human arrogance Vs Machine. Which is what I was not willing to expand on because I don't have the firmest of grasps on it.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Man vs. The Epic Quest |
Now I'm thinking of a man alone trying to halt another man's doomed, fatalistic quest, before it reaches its gruesome and tragic end.
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: The 8 "Player vs." games. |
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| Is this as interesting as this thread's going to get? Presumably we can just look this shit up. If we know there's eight then someone must have already been through this, and we can ask them. |
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe I shouldn't have made my 666th post so arrogant :| |
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dhex
Breeder
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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well, what were you looking for?
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, this thread is just some guys trying to remember something. Surely this information is available somewhere? |
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, that is disappointing. I didn't know it was a set list. I thought we were inventing it and that eight was an arbitary number that Shaper came up with. I was more interested when I didn't know all of that.
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dhex
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, this thread is just some guys trying to remember something. Surely this information is available somewhere? |
well, it's in this thread now, so yes?
sometimes a game is just a game is just a game is just a game vs. man vs. game.
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