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player 2
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 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: Mikami, oh Mikami, where art thou? |
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I just finished God Hand and I crave more Mikami. I also kinda crave an action RPG in the vein of God Hand, but with swords and dragons and leveling up that means the game is easier instead of harder.
Or God Hand 2.
Or Yakuza with God Hand's gameplay (but keeping Yakuza's HEAT moves. And adding a bunch of Mortal Kombat fatalities).
Or or or... a Killer 7 that plays like God Hand. If Heroes is Killer 7 crossed with God Hand with an emphasis on CRAZY/AWESOME and a de-emphasis on SILLY/HOKEY... holy fuck.
Anyways. I feel as though Mikami has been one of the most influencial game developers, ever. He's pioneered a method to integrate gameplay with the story. I don't mean the generic story/plot/scenario that every game has. I mean that every game has gameplay that is integral into the method that he's telling his story. That's why he's so fucking great.
And on top of that, you can see his influence on a ton of other developers. What really intrigues me, though, was his collaborations with NAKED, Grasshopper, and Clover. At the end of Godhand there was a credit frame with all of their logos on it. It made me smile, you know, because... Mikami was the glue that got them all to work together.
SO ANYWAYS. WHERE IS THAT CRAZY MOTHER FUCKER? AND WHAT THE FUCK IS HE DOING NOW?
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GSL
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Tell me about God Hand. I'm familiar with the name and not much else. |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I can jump on this band wagon. Just to clear some things up though, I don't really like his survival horror games (though I have yet to play Dino Crisis 2). Anyways, let's make this a list thread and list his games:
God Hand (2006) - director
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (2005) - executive producer
Killer 7 (2005) - story, executive producer
Resident Evil 4 (2005) - director
Viewtiful Joe 2 -executive producer
Gyakuten Saiban 3 (2004) - executive producer
Dino Crisis 3 (2003) - executive producer
Viewtiful Joe (2003) - executive producer
P.N. 03 (2003) - director
Gyakuten Saiban 2 - executive producer
Resident Evil 0 (2002) - executive advisor
Resident Evil (2002) - director
Gyakuten Saiban (2001) - executive producer
Devil May Cry (2001) - executive producer
Resident Evil Gaiden (2001) - advisor
Onimusha: Warlords (2001) - advisor
Dino Crisis 2 (2000) - executive producer
Resident Evil Code: Veronica (2000) - producer
Resident Evil 3: Nemesis (1999) - producer
Dino Crisis (1999) - producer, director
Resident Evil 2 (1998) - game producer
Resident Evil (1996) - director
Goof Troop (1994) - game design
Aladdin (1993) - planner (SNES version)
Untitled F1 game (1992, cancelled) - planner
Who Framed Roger Rabbit? (1991) - planner (Game Boy version)
Capcom Quiz: Hatena? no Daibôken (1990) - planner (Game Boy version)
PN03, Killer 7, RE4, and Viewtiful Joe are some of the best games of "this" generation. God Hand is up there with them too.
This list almost makes me want to play my copy of Dino Crisis 2...
| Greatsaintlouis wrote: | | Tell me about God Hand. I'm familiar with the name and not much else. |
Here is my unreview of God Hand.
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OtakupunkX
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| My local GameStop has Dino Crisis 2 on PC for $5. It's been there for a very long time. No, or go? |
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | I don't really like his survival horror games (though I have yet to play Dino Crisis 2). |
Huh? Dino Crisis 2 is an Action game, silly.
-Wes
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | Shapermc wrote: | | I don't really like his survival horror games (though I have yet to play Dino Crisis 2). |
Huh? Dino Crisis 2 is an Action game, silly.
-Wes |
qft
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player 2
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: |
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The thing that I really like about Mikami's games is that they're so goddamned deliberate, but lately they've given the player more and more liberties, especially given context. PN03 was panned because the controls were wonky, but in the narrow corridors that most levels were presented in, it didn' t matter that she moved funny. In fact, it helped make PN03 feel more like a dance - which is obviously what she's doing with that ass.
God Hand feels a lot like PN03 with a lot of the inadequacies of Vanessa fleshed out. You push the attack button a lot until you have to dodge or change up your attack. There are different sequences you have to look out for. And the camera is never something you don't have to fight if you're careful.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| player 2 wrote: | | God Hand feels a lot like PN03 with a lot of the inadequacies of Vanessa fleshed out. You push the attack button a lot until you have to dodge or change up your attack. There are different sequences you have to look out for. And the camera is never something you don't have to fight if you're careful. |
This is too basic a comparison for me so I am going to have to disagree. That’s like saying that Double Dragon is like Rush’n Attack. It’s just too basic a comparison. PN03 is 2D shmups/run’n’guns as God Hand is to 2D brawlers is a much better comparison. Both evolve their respective genre enough that it was just what they needed in the “new generation.” Not so much that it feels like a fully new genre (like what happen to platformers from 2D to 3D), and enough that they are no longer stagnant and constantly reinventing the wheel.
Also, I don’t think that God Hand would be as short as PN03 if you could beat it w/o dying. For a while I was attempting to speed run PN03 to get my time down to 45 min (which I am pretty sure is doable) I couldn’t break 58 min. I am pretty skeptical that God Hand could be completed in less than 2 hours. But again, this goes with the evolution from their respective genres: shooters have almost always been about half the length of brawlers.
As far as fleshed out inadequacies, well, again shooters have always been more minimalist: shoot and bomb (occasionally a third rapid or charge attack). Brawlers had usually a fairly adequate move list with special attacks and unique combos.
The only comparable improvement between PN03 and GH is that the camera was vastly improved for GH. Hear me out. The removal of walls/obstacles (which looks just like terrible clipping) makes it so that you always have maximum view of the fight field (much like Genes peripheral vision would be). It wasn’t very well implemented (because of … well shit just disappearing) but it makes it so that you can have the right view at all times regardless of the environment.
Also, I kind of un-reviewed God Hand recently.
| SuperWes wrote: | | Huh? Dino Crisis 2 is an Action game, silly. |
Uh? Really? I thought it was just, you know, RE4+Dinos … kinda.
Banned!
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dark steve
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dino Crisis 2 is like the missing link between Resident Evil and RE4 + Devil May Cry. |
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player 2
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Game length... doesnt' really matter. PN03 is a short game because the developers didn't think it was worth it to expand a demo. Godhand is a longer game because it came after both PN03 and Resident Evil 4.
The reason I compared the two games is because they're both very calculated. You have your left/right dodging manuevers, you have the backflips, and you have the basic attack. Everything Vanessa does, Gene does (except jump on a whim, but who jumped much in PN03 anyways?). The main difference is that Gene has more moves.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| player 2 wrote: | | Everything Vanessa does, Gene does (except jump on a whim, but who jumped much in PN03 anyways?). The main difference is that Gene has more moves. |
I jump quite a bit. It helps dodge a few patterns without breaking the attack flow as much.
Anyways, you're missing the largest thing: attack distance. God Hand is close/melee range; PN03 is long distance/gun range. What kind of combos do you really want with a long range gun attack? I think the bomb mechanic for PN03 was just the right amount of variation for the distance of attack. This difference separates the games immensely no matter how similar they are.
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-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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GSL
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Whoa, Gyakuten Saiban! I guess I knew in the back of my mind that Mikami was well involved with RE4 and Killer7, but I totally glossed over the Gyakuten/Phoenix Wright games! |
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player 2
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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There is much less movement in PN03 than in other shooting games, though. In a shooter you're constantly moving. In PN03 you can either choose to move or attack. Sure, there is distance, but what of it? Does it really change your thought processes that much? You pretty much shoot until you see a threat, handle the threat, and then shoot some more. It's much more similar to Godhand (though its threats are more imminent) than it is to Raiden.
Also, GodHand has its own "Bomb" Mechanics. In fact, it has 3 different bomb mechanics (why? I don't know). There are 3 different moves you can do to do lots of damage and have temporary invincibility. The roullettes in particular are very reminiscent of Vanessa's superdanceattackspecials.
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Last edited by player 2 on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mister Toups
Hates your favorite videogame
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| dark steve wrote: | | Dino Crisis 2 is like the missing link between Resident Evil and Onimusha. |
fixed
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| player 2 wrote: | | There is much less movement in PN03 than in other shooting games, though. In a shooter you're constantly moving. In PN03 you can either choose to move or attack. Sure, there is distance, but what of it? Does it really change your thought processes that much? You pretty much shoot until you see a threat, handle the threat, and then shoot some more. It's much more similar to Godhand (though its threats are more imminent) than it is to Raiden. |
Ok, I was comparing them to these games, not saying that they are exactly the same. Obviously one is forced scrolling the other is not. It has a lot more in common with Contra (run’n’gun, as stated in my initial statement) than it does with God Hand. The mechanics for Raiden are similar as well. You have Venessa either attacking an enemy or dodging them/their fire. In Raiden you are either attacking an enemy or dodging. The difference? You can’t hold the fire buttons while moving. I will also maintain that a combo system like GH in PN03 would be too cumbersome just because it would ultimately make little difference, and Venessa will change up her stance on her own anyways.
| player 2 wrote: | | Also, GodHand has its own "Bomb" Mechanics. In fact, it has 3 different bomb mechanics (why? I don't know). There are 3 different moves you can do to do lots of damage and have temporary invincibility. The roullettes in particular are very reminiscent of Vanessa's superdanceattackspecials. |
Brawlers have always had these “bombs.” Well not all brawlers, but for the genre they aren’t anything new. Also, PN03’s “bomb” has much more of a risk involved in it than either the roulette or god hand attack. You have to perform a combo, and while doing it you are completely vulnerable (actually, thinking about it, a bit of slowdown like GH for the roulette would have been nice for PN03. Combine that with a sort of tagging like feature from JSR … ohh! That would have been great!).
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. While both games are comparable (especially from modern viewpoints) I think they are quite different.
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DaleNixon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| In the last three non God Hand games I've started since beating God Hand, I'm still trying to use the right stick to dodge attacks. Maybe I should go give Death by Degrees another shot. |
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player 2
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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So, Suda 51's Heroes sounds like a Killer 7 lookalike playing like God Hand crossed with a "Beam Katana".
How the fuck is Mikami not involved with that one? Just what the fuck has he been doing recently?
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Dracko
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Is that to say more info has been released on that game?
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| player 2 wrote: | | So, Suda 51's Heroes sounds like a Killer 7 lookalike playing like God Hand crossed with a "Beam Katana". |
Did you notice that Gene's whistle is pretty much the exact same whistle as Travis Touchdown?
"*whistle* I like that!"
I have a feeling that HerOes is going to be amazing.
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player 2
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simplicio
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Santa Destroy? Santa Destroy!
awesome |
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player 2
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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On the East Coast, no doubt.
Suda 51 is like Mikami's Basquiat. I mean. What?
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dark steve
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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I do like how unabashedly ugly Heroes looks.
Also how the story reminds me of Branded to Kill. |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| dark steve wrote: | | I do like how unabashedly ugly Heroes looks. |
Huh?
I think it looks good.
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dark steve
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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I mean i'm pretty sure it's deliberate.
The fluorescent light sword? The hands that turn into guns? It's spectacularly horrible design. |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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He pulled stunts like that in killer7. It's definitely deliberate. As I understand it, they're supposed to be gaudy references to old-school gaming in general, with all the cheese you'd associate with them.
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player 2
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Videogames are silly affairs. It's all intentionally silly. I like it much more than the latest Tom Clancy games, that's for sure.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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They're better off that way, in a sense. I don't get the impression they've built enough of an identity to be genuinely taken all that credibly. There are a few exceptions of course. Comics understood this when they were in people's crosshairs, and managed to grow from there on.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| dark steve wrote: | | The fluorescent light sword? The hands that turn into guns? It's spectacularly horrible design. |
Well, I'll buy that you don't like the design, but it looks pretty, design atrocity or not.
Also, I just found my copy of Dino Crisis 2!
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dessgeega
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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i'm tired of games going "games lol".
cliche is cliche no matter how much irony you drown it in?
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player 2
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | i'm tired of games going "games lol".
cliche is cliche no matter how much irony you drown it in? |
I don't think it's games going "lol". In fact, I think a lot of it is merely natural. Resident Evil 4 has schlock because, well, it's a videogame about being scary. GodHand is "lol"-filled because, well, it's about big muscular men fighting other big muscular men. Killer is edgy because it wants to be edgy. And even if you don't think that the voice acting in Heroes is funny, you can't say it's clichy or ironic, it's really just terrible voice acting.
But I like the culture being developed here. Godhand (sorry, it's the latest game I've put time into), for example, gives you fruit to replenish your health. They're big, fat, and obtrusive. They do it because that helps the game flow better. If they were small, it'd be a major pain in the ass. But no, they're big because you need them to be big so you can see them. And they're fruits because, well, in videogames you collect fruits. Mr. Pacman would agree.
Metal Gear Solid did the same thing. Exclamation points to highlight enemy AI, nudy magazines to "create character", it's just funny little stuff that's hokey, but it's fitting. I think it is, at least.
I mean, if you're going to create an enemy - should he have guns concealed in his pockets? Or should his hands be guns? I think over the top is just something that comes with the concept of a videogame. Maybe once the technology is further developed and we've figured out how to use cameras to generate suspicion and higher levels of subtlety we can move away from this path. Maybe then..
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Cycle
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Dess, I'm really sick of games being praised because of all this self-reference crap. Guess what people, it's been around for years and if anything, it's slowing down the progress of the genre of the medium because instead of trying to do new and amazing things with the medium, they just go LOL ITS JUST A GAME RELAX. It feels so lazy to me.
End rant. |
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GSL
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | i'm tired of games going "games lol".
cliche is cliche no matter how much irony you drown it in? |
Point; ironic cliche is still cliche. However, isn't there something to be said about that kind of cliche that makes a statement? One example being games that revel in the cheese of yesteryear and remind players that gaming wasn't always--and still doesn't have to be--about the flashiest graphics or the most realistic simulation? Should that be dismissed as well simply because it relies on cliche to prove a point?
EDIT: Didn't see other posts behind Dess'. Cycle, what would you consider to be 'new and amazing things' for the medium? When I often hear developers talk about that sort of thing, it's usually the aforementioned 'better graphics & more realistic gameplay' that they really mean. Arguably, self-referential games walk a very fine line between intelligent and being the same old joke, but can't that sort of attempt ALSO be considered pushing the envelope, albeit in a slightly different way? |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | i'm tired of games going "games lol".
cliche is cliche no matter how much irony you drown it in? |
So, list some of these please. Anyone can really.
Also, this is the action movie of game genres here. As I have stated before, we're not exactly in high-brow country.
PN03 did an amazing job of being serious. Killer7... well, I can't tell. And I know that neither Cycle nor Dess have played God Hand (right?). If you want to talk about a game being cliched, aim your guns at Contact. In ten years the game will be unplayable if you weren't really heavy into the videogame/internet/blog community between '99-'07. God Hand will still be playable and have amazing control. It borrows as much from other mediums of entertainment as it does "lol games" for its jokes.
I don't know if I can defend Killer7 though. I don't know what's up with it.
Edit: Ok, after about 2 hours of Dino Crisis 2 I like it, but wish it was much more staight forward. All this running around and doing stupid RE-Style puzzles is pissing me off. I'm going back to god hand. It's much better than it should be, and at least ten times better than I had given it previous credit for.
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dessgeega
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | dessgeega wrote: | i'm tired of games going "games lol".
cliche is cliche no matter how much irony you drown it in? |
So, list some of these please. Anyone can really. |
i guess i was thinking mostly of heroes when i typed that. it just feels like i've heard a lot of people say "those voice actors are so bad it has to be intentional!" there's so much bad voice acting in games already. why not intentionally hire some good voice acting?
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | | i guess i was thinking mostly of heroes when i typed that. it just feels like i've heard a lot of people say "those voice actors are so bad it has to be intentional!" there's so much bad voice acting in games already. why not intentionally hire some good voice acting? |
HerOes is too ... ealry to say anything.
That said, the Travis Touchdown voice has grown on me for an unknown reason.
PS: I want the God Hand OST but it can't be bought... does anyone know where I can buy it? Seriously, I want to buy it. But also, I would take a digital copy if this isn't going to happen (aparently it was packed in with the JP release). Or, just a digital copy to hold me over, that's ok too.
It is aparently titled "God Tracks"
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player 2
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Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Madison, WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone else find it fanfuckingtastic that the music when you activate your "i'm-the-invincible-GodHand" ability is surf rock?
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"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| player 2 wrote: | | Does anyone else find it fanfuckingtastic that the music when you activate your "i'm-the-invincible-GodHand" ability is surf rock? |
Yes
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Nana Komatsu
weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1293
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | | Shapermc wrote: | | dessgeega wrote: | i'm tired of games going "games lol".
cliche is cliche no matter how much irony you drown it in? |
So, list some of these please. Anyone can really. |
i guess i was thinking mostly of heroes when i typed that. it just feels like i've heard a lot of people say "those voice actors are so bad it has to be intentional!" there's so much bad voice acting in games already. why not intentionally hire some good voice acting? |
I think most of this is fans impressing their will onto something they like. You see it in other fandoms too, fans saying "well it's [insert terrible quality here] because that's [ insert excuse here]!!!" At the end of the day, terrible is still terrible. |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I just fought and finally beat (finally) the midget elf power rangers.
This game is amazing
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | why not intentionally hire some good voice acting? |
because companies are determined to use it badly, it seems? even the good ones in many cases.
it's a fucking shame, cause nothing will snap someone out of an experience faster than that kind of ham.
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squidlarkin
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 100
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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God Hand is final, clinching proof for me that review sites are bullshit. I almost didn't even bother with this one because of a 3/10 review I read. And you know what? Every single one of the complaints the guy raised was perfectly valid. But he completely forgot to mention that this game is FUCKING AWESOME.
(activating my god hand at just the right moment to finish off the masked latex boss chick with a well-deserved spanking. priceless.) |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| squidlarkin wrote: | | I almost didn't even bother with this one because of a 3/10 review I read. And you know what? Every single one of the complaints the guy raised was perfectly valid. But he completely forgot to mention that this game is FUCKING AWESOME. |
IGN.
But like, even while some of his complaints are valid, most are only valid from a certain standpoint. Most aren't valid as part of the whole game.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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