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SuperWes
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 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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Some guy from a Nintendo fan site got ahold of the IGN Gamecube editor's IM address and had a debate about HD, the hollywoodization of gaming, and how Nintendo is handling the future. Here's a link.
It's an interesting read and Casamassina (the IGN guy) in my eyes really is the clear winner. What the fanboy doesn't seem to realize is that pretty much everything he is asking for in the next generation isn't mutually exclusive. If the option to present games in a higher resolution exists, why not let gamer's play in them if it doesn't prevent those without an HD TV from playing those games? If violence, sex, and drugs are allowed to be presented in games how does this prevent designers from creating games without them? How do higher production values and better technology inherently equate to a lack of innovation?
That last one is the biggest puzzler. Yes, I understand that higher production values mean higher costs and that higher costs equate to less willingness to innovate, but should technology really be held back specifically in order to appease those unwilling to risk money on innovation?
Well whatever, read the article and discuss. It's refreshingly devoid of discussions about how long it takes to take a piss, but not devoid of rabid fanboyism. Radical.
-Wes
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dhex
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:07 am Post subject: |
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nintendo is an abusive spouse; fanboys are certain that this time was the last time, and they're really changed.
the whole thing is weird. why do people identify with companies and products to the point of insanity?
well, i guess it's weird to identify with a mode of communication or art for that matter. meh.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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I hate to split hairs here, but please, someone tell me where Nintendo says there will be NO HD games for the Revolution? I was under the impression that it will just not be the focus or manditory. Look at the game cube, there are many HD/Progressive scan items out for it, more so than the PS2 or Xbox (iirc).
| SuperWes wrote: | | [1]If the option to present games in a higher resolution exists, why not let gamer's play in them if it doesn't prevent those without an HD TV from playing those games? [2] If violence, sex, and drugs are allowed to be presented in games how does this prevent designers from creating games without them? [3]How do higher production values and better technology inherently equate to a lack of innovation? |
1: There is no reason not to. Nintendo has been doing this for the entire generation, although they did cut the feature due to almost no one using it on later models to offer it at a cheaper price.
2: It does not. But with the kind of press that 25 to Life gets for free we are going to see more of them until they stop getting the free press. Completly unrelated, but I wanted to answer with more then three words.
3: Inherently? Well by nature higher budgets mean that the item will need to get more profit and higher sales. It is not safe business practice to do this. Look at the guy who worked at Fox and gave Fight Club the green light (along with another good movie which I fail to recall) and it bombed at the box office. He was fired to giving large budgets to movies that are off the beaten path. For trying something innovating.
The other side of the coin is that when someone with original enough ideas really wants them to happen they make a few safe games then get the go ahead to make their own side project with an amazing budget and no worries if it fails. So it is a means to an end.
~~
I think the NintendoNow guy had some points that were good, but just over shadowed and clouded by his inability to be anything but a fan boy.
Also, I will not have a HD TV before 2008, so I don't really give a fuck about it. I will probably have a HDTV before about 85% of the population too. Something are being made too much a do about nothing. |
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| shapermc wrote: | 1: There is no reason not to. Nintendo has been doing this for the entire generation, although they did cut the feature due to almost no one using it on later models to offer it at a cheaper price.
2: It does not. But with the kind of press that 25 to Life gets for free we are going to see more of them until they stop getting the free press. Completly unrelated, but I wanted to answer with more then three words.
3: Inherently? Well by nature higher budgets mean that the item will need to get more profit and higher sales. It is not safe business practice to do this. Look at the guy who worked at Fox and gave Fight Club the green light (along with another good movie which I fail to recall) and it bombed at the box office. He was fired to giving large budgets to movies that are off the beaten path. For trying something innovating. |
1. Nintendo hasn't said that there will be NO HD games for the revolution, but I'm not really criticising Nintendo's decision, none of it really affects me at all since, like you, I don't have an HD TV. It's more about the way that the Nintendo fans are saying that Sony and Microsoft are making the wrong decision. That's just absurd. The other companies are making a decision to offer a nicer experience to people who can afford it. This is admirable even if I'm not one of those people.
I was a big fan of the VGA Box for the Dreamcast.
2. And it irks me just as much that people are already referring to 25 to Life as shit based solely on its violent content and thug life theme. If the game uses these elements correctly, it might end up being pretty good. It's impossible to totally dismiss a game until you've played it. And if that theme doesn't appeal to you, well, the whole world doesn't revolve around your tastes. Quality games should be made that appeal to all walks of life.
3. But just because a game system CAN pump out stuff with higher production values does that mean that every game put out for the system has to have higher production values? Nippon Ichi makes games with recycled graphic engines and 16 to 32-bit production values on the Playstation 2. They know their market and I'm guessing that they are pretty profitable. Where's the harm in that?
I think my biggest problem is that when the specs for Nintendo's new system are finally announced I have a feeling they will be comparable to the Xbox 360 in power. At that time, Nintendo fanboys everywhere are going to be thankful that Nintendo put in enough power to compete technologically and they'll blank the, "less power = more innovation" rants from their memory.
Honestly, who would be disappointed if Nintendo said their system is just as powerful as the new Xbox?
-Wes
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| SuperWes wrote: | 2. And it irks me just as much that people are already referring to 25 to Life as shit based solely on its violent content and thug life theme. If the game uses these elements correctly, it might end up being pretty good. It's impossible to totally dismiss a game until you've played it. And if that theme doesn't appeal to you, well, the whole world doesn't revolve around your tastes. Quality games should be made that appeal to all walks of life.
3. But just because a game system CAN pump out stuff with higher production values does that mean that every game put out for the system has to have higher production values? Nippon Ichi makes games with recycled graphic engines and 16 to 32-bit production values on the Playstation 2. They know their market and I'm guessing that they are pretty profitable. Where's the harm in that? |
Ok, first, I never said that the game was shitty. All I said what that when people see what kind of press you can get based on content they are not going to even bother making the game playable or good they are just going to ride the wave and pump them out. Also, I would guess that it was shitty by the publishing/developing company and character models, not theme.
For #3 you turned your inital question around on me:
| Quote: | | How do higher production values and better technology [in games/systems] inherently equate to a lack of innovation? |
See that bit in the brackets? I assumed it was games, you were asking for systems. I would have had a different answer if I was talking about high production values and better graphics in systems. Something akin to what you said, but I would also point out that Sony is notorious for crippling the smaller companies and making them release budget games or make the game a double pack. Nintendo has said something about independent game maker friendly with the revolution. What ever that will mean. I could mean a lot of things. We could see the companies that are tired of getting cock blocked in the US just flat out develop for Nintendo. It could mean nothing. |
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dhex
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:45 am Post subject: |
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i am willing to bet 25 ta lif (4 life!) will suck. just based on the title alone.
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| shapermc wrote: | | Ok, first, I never said that the game was shitty. All I said what that when people see what kind of press you can get based on content they are not going to even bother making the game playable or good they are just going to ride the wave and pump them out. Also, I would guess that it was shitty by the publishing/developing company and character models, not theme. |
But it's been shown time and time again that lots of press does not automatically make a game successful. Look at The Guy Game. Look at BMXXX. Hell, look at Acclaim! Last I checked, bad games are always the biggest flops. Getting press might increase sales by a bit, but they can't make up for crappy games.
I realize you weren't originally saying 25 to Life was shitty, but there was an implication that lots of press and violent content equates to a shitty game getting higher sales. What if I told you 5 years ago that a company called Rockstar Games was publishing a game called Grand Theft Auto and it looks like this:
Would you have told me that it's going to be the highest selling game since Super Mario Bros?
| shapermc wrote: | | I assumed it was games, you were asking for systems. |
Well, the conversation is about how increased power in the next generation of systems will demand higher production values in games. I'm not convinced that this is the case. The most innovative games are rarely the ones that have the highest production values. If anything, the call for higher production values will hopefully convince companies to fully cut out the story sequences from games that don't need them instead of making us sit through needless 5 minute long talking-heads-style story sequences.
| shapermc wrote: | | I would also point out that Sony is notorious for crippling the smaller companies and making them release budget games or make the game a double pack. |
Well yeah, there's that, but it's usually for underdeveloped games that nobody should be asking full price for anyways.
-Wes
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disneyland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nintendo has said something about independent game maker friendly with the revolution. What ever that will mean. I could mean a lot of things. We could see the companies that are tired of getting cock blocked in the US just flat out develop for Nintendo. It could mean nothing. |
Same basic dev kit as GC, plus same API for the ATI GPU. People are very familiar with both environments.
IBM's software for the CPU also inexpensive, and with all systems having PowerPC cores, costs are driven down and shared resource knowledge goes up.
So it's almost certainly the most affordable next-gen console to develop for with the smoothest learning curve.
If you're independent, have humble funding and a great idea, Revolution is the attractive choice.
- I'm sure it'll be powerful enough to have competitive versions of the big cross-platform shit like the Prince of Persias and such. |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| SuperWes wrote: | Well yeah, there's that, but it's usually for underdeveloped games that nobody should be asking full price for anyways.
-Wes |
Like Katamarii and almost every SNK game? Or... Virtua Fighter Evolution.
You don't have to bring your hate of SNK into this thread... mmmkay?
| SuperWes wrote: | | But it's been shown time and time again that lots of press does not automatically make a game successful. Look at The Guy Game. Look at BMXXX. Hell, look at Acclaim! Last I checked, bad games are always the biggest flops. Getting press might increase sales by a bit, but they can't make up for crappy games. |
Good points. Although most of the press that The Guy Game got was it was a bad game, that tries to ride the wave of having boobies. |
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| shapermc wrote: | Like Katamarii and almost every SNK game? Or... Virtua Fighter Evolution.
You don't have to bring your hate of SNK into this thread... mmmkay? |
Katamari at $20 was Namco's Marketing decision, not a Sony mandate.
Virtua Fighter Evolution was two characters added to a $50 game that was released less than a year prior. And I also believe this was Sega's marketing decision.
And the SNK stuff I firmly agree with Sony's decision. SNK should not be releasing straight ports of 10 year old arcade games at $50 a piece. Did you buy Metal Slug 3 for the X-box? Would you have bought it for $20?
-Wes
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | And the SNK stuff I firmly agree with Sony's decision. SNK should not be releasing straight ports of 10 year old arcade games at $50 a piece. Did you buy Metal Slug 3 for the X-box? Would you have bought it for $20? |
Evo was Sony. KD was a decision by Namco to avoid any questions. Metal Slug 4/5 double pack is $40 ($20 each) and both are less then five years old. When released in Japan MS5 was only a little over a year old. What about SvC: Chaos? If they don't sell drop the price. Also the Evo additions are equally as important as the additions to MGS2: Substance which was released at full price. Also, I did not by MGS3 because I have the MVS cart. |
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| shapermc wrote: | | Metal Slug 4/5 double pack is $40 ($20 each) and both are less then five years old. |
Right, and if it had been up to SNK they would be selling each of them separately for $50 each. Thank you Sony. I also would have had to pay another $50 to play Virtua Fighter Evolution after paying $50 for basically the same game just a year earlier. Thanks there too Sony!
I get your point on Metal Slug 5, but not really. It may only be a few years old, but is that game really worth $50 to the average consumer? Why not just release it on the Playstation 1? Metal Slug X ran just fine.
I sincerely doubt that Katamari's budget price was because of pressure by Sony. 500,000 games sold at $20 makes Namco a lot more money than 50,000 at $50. Just ask the NFL 2K team, who sold ten times as many copies of their football game after lowering it to $20. Often it's a better idea to release games for cheaper.
I don't really want to go down a game-by-game list and check off what Sony has had a hand in, but I will say that I appreciate quality standard systems and I almost wish they would be higher instead of lower. Quality standards on console systems is nothing new. Remember Strider on the NES? Remember Bionic Commando? These games were longer and more complete games than their arcade counterparts because Nintendo required a more complete experience from their games, and (even though I'm sure someone will disagree with me on the Strider assertion) both games are better for it.
-Wes
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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Hey, I am all about cheap games, don't get me wrong. Mainly I am upset with the games that never came over to the US in the first place.
| SuperWes wrote: | | I don't really want to go down a game-by-game list and check off what Sony has had a hand in, but I will say that I appreciate quality standard systems and I almost wish they would be higher instead of lower. Quality standards on console systems is nothing new. Remember Strider on the NES? Remember Bionic Commando? These games were longer and more complete games than their arcade counterparts because Nintendo required a more complete experience from their games, and (even though I'm sure someone will disagree with me on the Strider assertion) both games are better for it. |
Also, that was mainly Capcom, not Nintendo. Section Z got this treatment too. I was one of those people who hated the NES port of Strider and thought the Arcade version vastly superior. |
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| shapermc wrote: | | Hey, I am all about cheap games, don't get me wrong. Mainly I am upset with the games that never came over to the US in the first place. |
Such as? I really want a list of this kind of thing because I'm more convinced that we're being protected against greedy publishers than being deprived of great games. Well, not totally, but I really do want a list of games that haven't come out here because of Sony's practices. It might make for a pretty good TGQ article.
| shapermc wrote: | | Also, that was mainly Capcom, not Nintendo. |
Damnit! I thought I might be a bit wrong there. I do think I'm partially right though. I know Capcom was limited to a certain number of games per year and they expanded their games in order to maximize sales.
-Wes
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JasonMoses
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| shapermc wrote: | | I was one of those people who hated the NES port of Strider and thought the Arcade version vastly superior. |
That's because the arcade version is vastly superior. |
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo Fanboy vs. IGN |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | shapermc wrote: | | Hey, I am all about cheap games, don't get me wrong. Mainly I am upset with the games that never came over to the US in the first place. |
Such as? I really want a list of this kind of thing because I'm more convinced that we're being protected against greedy publishers than being deprived of great games. Well, not totally, but I really do want a list of games that haven't come out here because of Sony's practices. It might make for a pretty good TGQ article. |
I had the list once (it was on the IC forums...). Mostly niche titles that I was interested in. DDP: DOJ was on it. I ended up importing most of them. Let me see if I can find the list. |
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I understand, Nintendo has announced that the Revolution won't have HD compability -- even if you're playing on an HD, you will see it in regular resolution. Developers won't be able to make games in HD. Unless I misread something somewhere.
I have a hard time believing the extra components needed are so expensive that Nintendo needs to leave them out; it seems more like they just don't care about it at all (and neither do I, for that matter). This Nintendo fan seems to interpret it as a sort of political statement from Nintendo about this whole "HD Era" thing: more or less thumbing their noses at the whole thing. The IGN guy, who is an admitted "tech whore" (he used some similar phrasing on the editorial he wrote), just gets a boner for flashy graphics so he's disappointed. Two trains passing in the night.
I don't know how good a decision this is on Nintendo's part; however, think about it: how big a selling point will HD support be for the next generation, given how few people currently own HD TV's anyway? Unless HDTV purchases skyrocket between now and March Nintendo doesn't have anything to worry about. No one's going to refuse buying a system because it doesn't support a format that they don't own.
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dark steve
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure they're that militant about it; as I remember reading it, Nintendo's simply the only one of the big three that isn't requiring developers to produce software that will run in at least 1080p resolution. Current systems (definitely the xbox and I'm pretty sure the other two) are all capable of exporting HD signals, though most games don't support it. |
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aderack
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | | i am willing to bet 25 ta lif (4 life!) will suck. just based on the title alone. |
Is this the game where you hit people with locker doors?
That looked pretty dumb, at E3.
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| dark steve wrote: | | I'm not sure they're that militant about it; as I remember reading it, Nintendo's simply the only one of the big three that isn't requiring developers to produce software that will run in at least 1080p resolution. Current systems (definitely the xbox and I'm pretty sure the other two) are all capable of exporting HD signals, though most games don't support it. |
See. If that's true, then I think it's pretty fucking ridiculous of Sony and Microsoft. Some games just don't NEED that extra resolution. Is Katamari Damacy a better game in 1080p resolution? Hell no. It will probably be just as fun on the DS (well, depending on how they handle interface)
Someone do some research. Which is it? Is Nintendo HD optional and Sony/Microsoft HD mandatory? Or vice versa?
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| dark steve wrote: | | I'm not sure they're that militant about it; as I remember reading it, Nintendo's simply the only one of the big three that isn't requiring developers to produce software that will run in at least 1080p resolution. |
I remember hearing something similiar as well. Also all current gen systems have HD games. The TV becomes HD at 720i, so all PS3 and Xbox2 will be at least at that resolution, if not higher. I am sure this will tie into the Nintendo being more friendly with independants. |
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| aderack wrote: | | dhex wrote: | | i am willing to bet 25 ta lif (4 life!) will suck. just based on the title alone. |
Is this the game where you hit people with locker doors? |
That was Codemned.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is this the game where you hit people with locker doors? |
locker doors hurt like hell, man.
a high school cruelty simulator would be an enjoyable game.
something which really captures the flavor of the whole green filing cabinet thing.
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | | a high school cruelty simulator would be an enjoyable game. |
Rockstar has you covered.
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disneyland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
Someone do some research. Which is it? Is Nintendo HD optional and Sony/Microsoft HD mandatory? Or vice versa? |
I believe X360 is a 720p support and 2X AA mandatory, though Microsoft is "encouraging" developers to go with 4x AA. The higher res you go, the greater the need for higher anti-aliasing.
Add: "There currently are no plans for Nintendo Revolution to support high-definition video output," said Perrin Kaplan, Nintendo of America's vice president of marketing and corporate affairs. "We have thoroughly considered the best means of video output for the system and are dedicated to delivering the best hardware possible to meet the demands of our consumers," she said.
Sony hasn't committed to any mandate thus far, although the system supports dual 1080p output - so that's a fairly large hint. For games, it'll end up being 720p probably. Most developers are saying they won't have enough video memory to have a full game in 1080p (for conventional genres, anyway). Although they have the media (23.3 GB Blu-ray) now for lovely uncompressed HD video.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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i heard a guy in a gamestop today say that HD makes playing games fun again.
bully might have potential. the riot from san andreas gives me some hope with these guys.
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Mister Toups
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| disneyland wrote: | | Add: "There currently are no plans for Nintendo Revolution to support high-definition video output," said Perrin Kaplan, Nintendo of America's vice president of marketing and corporate affairs. "We have thoroughly considered the best means of video output for the system and are dedicated to delivering the best hardware possible to meet the demands of our consumers," she said. |
Doesn't the Gamecube have some kind of HD output though? Or am I mixing that up with S-video?
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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We play Halo 2 on the HD screens at work and it looks better and make precision shooting a whole lot easier, but does it make the game more fun? Not quite... It just makes the game easier to play.
But then, I'm not really impressed by stuff I've seen done in the Unreal 3 engine.
I am impressed with the new pictures of Project Gotham 3:
But I'm not sure graphics this good will even be noticeable during gameplay. All driving games kinda blend together into a lump visually nowadays anyways.
-Wes
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mister Toups wrote: | | Doesn't the Gamecube have some kind of HD output though? Or am I mixing that up with S-video? |
The original Gamecube did, but they took it out of the more recent versions of the system to save money. The cable was only available directly from Nintendo anyways.
-Wes
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | The original Gamecube did, but they took it out of the more recent versions of the system to save money. The cable was only available directly from Nintendo anyways.
-Wes |
Well, not exactly. I saw them at third party retailers for a while. No one really buys the.
And... that project gothem 3 image is impressive, but all that is, is higher resolution skins on the same polygons. Stuff that allows the game to be more immersive is good. The less distracting the eye gouging polygons are the better. |
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disneyland
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 131
Location: Shinsei
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Good looking environments make for nice replays in racing games. |
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| disneyland wrote: | | Good looking environments make for nice replays in racing games. |
Which brings up a good point. Who actually watches replays in any game? I skip them after the first "whoopdedoo" moment.
-Wes
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disneyland
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 131
Location: Shinsei
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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The game's designers and artists are probably hoping that you don't skip them.
I'll usually watch the full replay once for every new background in a racing game.
Replays are more entertaining to watch in racing combat games, especially after a good online match.
The same applies to some FPS games. A recorded demo of an exceptionally good round can be fun to watch again later on. That's not really a "replay" though... |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | disneyland wrote: | | Good looking environments make for nice replays in racing games. |
Which brings up a good point. Who actually watches replays in any game? I skip them after the first "whoopdedoo" moment.
-Wes |
I have about 20 or so Ridge Racers replays saved. If anyone wants them I can upload them or something. |
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