The Gamer's Quarter

Lestrade · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject:

Well all right!

I'll just be moving right along...

silentmatt · Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:54 am Post subject:

Hurray for bumping old threads!

I keep referencing this thread as I begin my search to replace my 17" SD TV with something that the PS3 will actually look nice upon. That really is my only stipulation (my PS2, Wii and VCR all plug-in to an S-Video switchbox, so I'm not really looking for upgrade the quality on that front).

I figure Sony PS3 so... Sony TV? I have my eye on this Bravia model which is currently on sale, which outputs at 720p.

Note: I am on a college budget so even though that is the cheapest I've seen the Bravia, that is still bloody expensive for me.

Do any of you have any experience with any of the other cheaper LCD TVs that might be of assistance? I will be ordering from Futureshop, so this is their list.

The Insignia is mega-cheap, but I don't really trust them... same with LG. But what about this Samsung model? It supposedly can handle 1080i signals and has both HDMI inputs (which I would use for the PS3) and S-Video. The set is actually on-sale (for $699.99) and the customer reviews look favourable.

Any help would definitely be appreciated!
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

ryan · . Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999

I don't have much experience with the 17" models, but I own a larger Bravia and my friend owns a larger Samsung and they are both fantastic. The Bravia line is a money maker for Sony because they've really changed things around and put out some great sets for the price. They teem to be the Toyota and Honda of TVs in that you get good deals for your money, so the rest is really preference - overall style of design, particular features you prefer over the other - because the basic quality is there. I looked up some reviews on the Samsung to make sure the smaller models were just as good as their larger and the majority of opinions are really positive.

I have an LG monitor that has been well worth the money, but I don't have any experience with their televisions.

From the looks of it, the Samsung has the features you prefer and a price you're more comfortable with, and so far reviews are saying it's a good set. I'd go with that one.
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Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

boojiboy7 · Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:51 am Post subject:

I have an LG LCD monitor that has worked just fine for me, but lord only knows about their televisions. I had an LG cell phone that was terrible, so yeah.

silentmatt · Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:03 am Post subject:

Yeah, I was pretty happy with the Samsung set... until I realized it wasn't in stock anywhere near where I am (and with work/school schedules, having things delivered is always a pain).

So, it turns out that the local store does have that Bravia set in-stock, which I could swing by and pick up at any point. I guess my main question in regards to that set is should I concerned about using 720p vs 1080i (as it doesn't support 1080)? I know the set isn't very large (although, it is quite a step up from what I am used to) and I think the general opinion is that you won't be able to tell much a different between 720 and 1080 at that size, correct?
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

ryan · . Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999

I went from 480p to 1080p, so I'm not really sure. But I hear the difference is minimal for most people. I took a quick look at some games next to me and both Heavenly Sword and DiRT are 720p with Warhawk being 720p and 1080i. It seems as though 720 should do you just fine.
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Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Go with 720p over 1080i anyday.

Also, my friend has an LG tv and has had good things to say about it, and I've looked at it and it seems decent enough.

The big thing to look at is contrast ratio. Anything over 7,000:1 is decent, 10,000:1 is getting good, but you really want the highest you can get and I know that small LCD TVs are pretty low in this area.

I would have highly recommended the Samsung because of my experiences with them and because of of the experiences of others who have listened to me on purchasing one.

Anyways, Your PS2 will look amazingly better on the TV when you start using your PS3 for upscaling. S-video is about as high quality as you can ever expect from VHS tapes.

The Wii will benefit greatly from getting component cables. They're not that expensive and I highly, very highly, recommend upgrading the quality of anything you can. You say you don't mind now, but It's worth it and you will see the folly of your ways when you do. I'm not saying jump right in and upgrade it all at once mind you. But the Wii component cables should be your next purchase.

NO I LIED, BUY THE COMPONENT CABLES FOR THE WII TODAY (one day only?)

The most important thing to remember about upgrading image quality on an HDTV is the cables that are going into the console and then to the TV. Not exactly the quality of those cables, but the type of cables. So, with that said, shop thrifty on cables and you'll be happier and save a lot of money. It's not that expensive to upgrade if you look around a bit. I use monoprice.com for all my cable buys now.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

silentmatt · Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject:

Wow, thanks for that shaper! I bought the Wii cables just because, shit... yeah they are cheap. I guess that one is an "anticipatory" purchase.

I am now almost sold (once I get rid of my SD TV, that is) on the Sharp 32" Aquos LCD HDTV (link). It is $849.99 after the $250 discount.

True Contrast ratio: 1200:1 <---- this is really bad then?
Display: 480i/480p, 720p/1080i
Resolution: 1366 x 768 at 720p
Response Time: 6ms
DVI Inputs 0
HDMI Inputs 2 - Back
PC VGA Inputs Yes
S-Video Inputs 1 - Input

So, even though it supports 1080i, would I set it to use 720p anyways? I imagine the cables to go from the PS3 to HDMI are pretty standard fare?

edit: from the official specs, they list the dynamic contrast ratio at 6000:1...
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

ryan · . Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999

My TV is 7000:1 and it's great, so I can't imagine 6000:1 disappointing you.
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Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

silentmatt · Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject:

That is really good to know. I didn't realize HD TVs cannot actually produce black. That is kind of baffling (but, the more I think about it, understandable).

I will look at the colours/blacks when I get to the store.

edit: just realized my additional questions were stupid. Sorry about that.
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

silentmatt · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:40 am Post subject:

So, after spending about an hour and a half last night at Futureshop, I walked out of the building with the 32" Aquos under my arm. It is a (monstrously huge) thing of beauty.

Seriously, the largest TV I have ever really used has been 20". The jump to 32" is astonishing - I pretty much don't even need my glasses to play anymore!

On top of the size difference, I picked up a HDMI-HDMI cable for the PS3, which now outputs in 720p and 1080i (depending on the game, the TV switches to the maximum supported resolution). The component cables for the Wii are en route too, so that'll be sweet.

Of course, I didn't even get to really play anything on it last night... as my girlfriend commandeered the set to watch the Matrix. But, then again, I didn't protest much. The level of detail in close-ups is absolutely staggering. I'm still pretty giddy to watch some other movies on it soon (hopefully something truly HD).

As far as colour goes, I don't mind the 6000:1 contrast ratio at all. The blacks look fine to my eye and, comparing the colour from this set to the others... I actually preferred the more subdued tones of the Aquos. They looked more natural (under the horrible Futureshop light conditions).

Plus, through haggling, I ended up getting a sweet deal on a 4 year warranty. All in all... I'm pretty damn happy.

Thanks again for all your help guys!
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

ryan · . Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999

If you can, try picking up Avia's calibration disc. If you can't, then try renting David Lynch's Inland Empire, because they have a few tests at the beginning and a brief explanation as to why you need to adjust your set. Basically, what happens is that - and you mentioned this - is that the TVs' settings are cranked up at the store so that the picture will stand out through all of the artificial light. It's surprising how far down the sharpness needs to be turned down to get a proper tone, and most other settings will need some sort of adjustment as well. There are a few free DVDs you can download and burn yourself to do some tests, but Avia's set includes slips of paper that are used to adjust the colors as well. It takes a few hours (or days) for your eyes to adjust to the new picture, but it really does look better. If you just don't care about that, and plenty don't, the other main reason is that such high settings will shorten the TV's useful life.

Also: Rent the Blu-ray versions of Planet Earth, Kingdom of Heaven, and pretty much anything 2005 and newer that you can get your hands on. I haven't seen anything pre 2005 Blu-ray really, but some trailers for movies re-released didn't wow me. Newer movies, like The Prestige, look fantastic.

And you're going to love how good Heavenly Sword looks. Sega Rally and Jericho demos should also get you giddy as well.
_________________
Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

silentmatt · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:02 am Post subject:

As far as calibrations go... the Aquos has this automatic "Dynamic" setting which detects how much light is in the room and adjusts the display accordingly. Most values set themselves to the mid-region or so (with contrast being the only one set a bit higher than middle).

It is actually pretty neat if you turn on the TV when lights are still on and then close the blinds/shut the lights and watch it adjust itself.

Of course, you can always do the "hands-on" manual tweaking but I found that the dynamic option actually does a better job than I do.

Yeah, the two games I've played so far have been Ninja Gaiden and Heavenly Sword. Both look spectacular! I love how the HUDs are so less intrusive on a larger/widescreen display. Even the Sony pop-ups about "soandso has come online", which used to appear enormous and annoying, aren't bad at all anymore.
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

silentmatt · Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:13 am Post subject:

So, my first (and hopefully only problem): I don't experience any lag - that I can consciously detect - when playing games on the PS3 (which is connected via HDMI).

But, last night, I decided I want to play some Guitar Hero 2. The thing is, the PS2 GH controllers won't plug-in to the PS3, so I have to still play it on the PS2, which is connected via S-Video to the TV. And there most certainly was lag.

In the GH2 options, you can calibrate for this (it ended up being offset by ~1ms), but the timing still felt a little "off". Even worse, if I recall correctly, GH1 doesn't have a calibration option at all!

So, this being the case, I am wondering... would upgrading the PS2 video output to component help minimize this lag? Is there anything I can do to be able to play GH1 on this TV? If my GH controllers were PS3 compatible, will I still be experiencing this problem playing via the PS3?

edit: if component cables (or VGA output?) from the PS2 to the TV will help... does MonoPrice sell them? I've spent the past 40 minutes looking through their "Cables" section (searching for 'PS2' isn't recommended) and cannot seem to find them.
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

SuperWes · Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:38 am Post subject:

silentmatt · Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:42 am Post subject:

I know there is a "game" mode on the TV... should this not be selected when playing games on the PS3?

edit: I think the "game mode" on this particular model only changes some of the display (brightness/contrast/etc) settings... nothing really substantial?

edit2: I tried out the "game mode"... which didn't help. I then went into the options and found something called 'I/P Setting' which can be set to either "Fast" (for fast-moving images) and "Slow". Of course, it defaults to "Slow"... so I changed it to Fast... which did help. GH2 lag off-set went from 1ms to about 0.4ms, which is definitely an improvement (one could almost play without calibration... almost, which still doesn't help for GH1).
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Actually I didn't know that MonoPrice sold any kind of propritary component cables (such as the Wii, that just happen to be a front page sale when I was looking for the site url).

Anyways, the PS2 component cables will help a little. You can get some third party ones for under $30, but if you care about your PS2, I recommend just going for the Sony brand ones.

Unfortunatly you have to spend a good amount of money and time looking to get a TV that has Zero lag. I don't know how much GH you play, but if it's only recreationally and you don't get upset if you score 200 points less than last time, you'll eventually get use to the minimal lag. If you had bought the Samsung, "Game Mode" actually turns off all kinds of processing and what not that creates lag from the TV receiving the image to it being displayed.

The reason that you don't notice the lag on the PS3 is because the TV just displays the image from the PS3 where with the PS2 it has to take the image and blow it up to fit and also process all these little effects that smooth it. Anyways, if you have ANY kind of TV processing things on try turning them off: like mine has Digital Noise Reduction and a few others, and if you turn those off then the image will be displayed just a hair quicker.

If you were in the US I'd be willing to chat with you over the phone about this but you're in Canadia right?
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

silentmatt · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:23 am Post subject:

Yup, Quebec (for the moment, probably Ontario in a year) representing. Its OK, your input via the forums has seriously been invaluable. Thanks - I really do appreciate it.

I ordered new component cables for the PS2 so I'm hoping that between the TV settings that I can adjust (the one I found the other night and, now that you mention things like Digital Noise Reduction, I'm sure I saw that one too hidden in there) and using the component cables, the lag will be minimal.

That being said, I don't mind (although I would prefer not having to, of course) calibrating GH2 (which also means GH2 Hacked Edition, which I love, or 80's Edition, which is meh) so that isn't too much of a big deal. It is just my girlfiend loves the songs on GH1 more than any of the other releases so, when she wants to play, its generally back to the original game.

Out of curiousity, since I will be using component cables as soon as they arrive, will this problem also plague the Wii?
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

silentmatt · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I was referring to the lag issue. Thats funny - I always felt that the Wii remote lagged a bit but I always just through I was crazy and never really looked into it.

And yeah, I see the benefits of the living in denial thing. I will definitely evolve to that state once I get all the right cables and tweak the TV settings to minimize this as much as humanly possible (luckily the TV remembers which settings I choose for each input so, once everything is plugged in and set-up, I should be able to just forget about it... which hopefully will aid in the denial).
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Lestrade · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject:

silentmatt · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject:

Lestrade · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject:

Sweet. We will have to game!

silentmatt · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:36 am Post subject:

Off-topic aside to Lestrade: Definitely. It will be weird, I haven't lived in Ontario for the past 4 years and I think pretty much all the people I used to know in Toronto have since vacated so it'll be sweet to get to know some new people off the bat. Our generation moves around way to frigging often.

But yeah, applying to grad school = hell. It is unreal.

On-topic: So, after some browsing around on the AVSforums, I found a thread dedicated to my TV! Scanning through the thread, it seems like they have some well informed folks over there and, thanks to whom, posted their settings for optimal picture quality. Remember when I said that the "dynamic auto-picture" was good enough?

Well, after actually using it for a while... I started to realize I couldn't see anything if there was any shadow (the darks were REALLY dark) so I used one of the AVSforums guys suggestions for settings and holy crap, do they look better. I have saved two suggestions (one uses the backlight more extensively than the other) and later today I plan on directly comparing them to see which I will plan on sticking with.

edit: regarding Guitar Hero 1, I just found a torrent for what is deemed "Guitar Hero 1.5" which, basically, is a hacked GH2 mod that features all the songs from the first game! Now, it isn't perfect (they didn't include a co-op mode, even faceoff is kind of sketchy in that the 2nd guitar isn't always audible, practice mode freezes the game, etc) but it is enough to play the songs with the lag calibration and still have a good time. So yeah, not quite the best solution but hey, while I wait for the component cables, it'll do the trick.
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Yeah, I don't like to throw around the whole AVSforums thing. It's kind of a mixed bag. Either people complain about something too much (because most people only go there to get help and hardly any stay afterwards so it seems like you're mostly reading complaints when many people are in fact very happy) or they're talking way over your head.

On the other hand, they DO know what they're doing and when I needed my TV calibrated because I had a factory part replaced, the guy in my area actually contacted me via AVSforums and said he'd hook up my TV so it's prett much perfect.

I'm debating on getting my TV calibrated every other year or so. I'm going to be moving this fall and when I get into a new house I may have mine calibrated again so that I don't have to worry about it for a few years. It will cost about $150-$200 or so for a tune up but these guys run it through nice and tight in the service menus. I won't say the difference is night and day, but I was really impressed with how my TV looked straight out of the box and then was shocked with how good it could look.

Anyways, i don't really recommend doing this unless you're really a fan of video quality. Which is werid since I find that DVDs look perfectly acceptable (mostly) on HDtvs, I just like my blacks to be black, my reds to be red, and my image as clear as the original source material.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

silentmatt · Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:25 am Post subject:

From another discussion board...

"Here is how I see it, because your 720p/1080i screen has a native res of 1366x768 and you are basically downscaling 1920x1080i to fit on the screen's native res, plus the fact it's interlaced (2 frames per screen) it works out that your getting an extra 86x40 pixels than if you were running in 720p which wont make the picture look much better.

For games and movies 720p > 1080i on a 720p/1080i set
For static images 1080i > 720p on a 720p/1080i set"

Is this true? Should I just disable 1080i on my PS3 since I never actually use it to view static images? What do you guys think?
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

silentmatt · Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the information, Shaper. I really appreciate it!

1080i is now disabled - although, I haven't really noticed much of a difference either way, honestly.
_________________
PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."