The Gamer's Quarter

dessgeega · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:25 am Post subject:

some of the items you acquire have fairly specific uses. i can't imagine using the item from the sixth dungeon outside of the sixth dungeon. (maybe they'll let me use it once or twice in the seventh to remind me i have it). that being said, i got immediately stuck after acquiring it. it seems like there should be a perfectly logical solution, but the logical solution doesn't work. now i can't even imagine what the solution might be. the fact that i've just got the item and don't really understand the extent of its uses compounds the problem.

maybe there's one of those spinny top lines i didn't see. i got hung up for a good while in an earlier room in the dungeon because of that.

some more thoughts: i like that the obligatory musical portion of our program is now limited to specific, one-time events. carrying around a reportoire of songs, and having to look them up whenever you need them, is annoying. it's like the spellbook in enchanter.
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helicopterp · . Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia

dessgeega · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject:

starting my game back up at the entrance to the sixth dungeon, i was able to reach the part where i'd been stuck and open it from the other side. i couldn't see any other solution to the room, and the warp-out-of-dungeon item greeted me at the door even though i hadn't used her, leading me to believe this actually was the intended solution. and if so, it's a dumb solution. it wasn't fair to ask me to replay the entire dungeon, especially when the game was about to do just that - again!

anyway, i got stuck again shortly after that because i hadn't figured out a property of my new item. a trip to gamefaqs (my third) revealed that pressing the "B" button makes my statue friend swing its hammer. i'd suspected it could do this, but - "it mirrors its master's actions" or whatever - i had tried swinging the remote to do it, like i do to swing the sword. this would have actually been a good opportunity for those annoying tooltips that every other item seems to have.

so i finally got the statue all the way to its place on the first floor, and triumphantly navigated the antechamber of the boss room (those rolling log traps are totally broken, by the way). and there, at my moment of victory, i discovered a big ol' locked door, with no idea where the key was.

allow me to take a moment to articulate my disdain for locked doors. normally in one of these zelda dungeons, you'll see a place that's hard to reach, struggle to work out how to reach it, and finally - perhaps after working out other solutions elsewhere - succeed in reaching it. having triumphed over this puzzle, your reward is passage to the unexplored chambers beyond.

not so when you reach that hard-to-find place and discover that the door is locked. then you sigh and get to work combing through all the areas you've already explored a thousand times trying to find that stupid key that you missed the first time. maybe by this point you've found a compass and are lucky enough to have fifteen icons dotting your map to indicate locations where a key could possibly be (but more likely it's just a red rupee that won't fit in your stuffed wallet - let's put it back!).

keys work just fine in the original zelda, because the way the dungeons are arranged means you can explore in a less linear fashion, and you usually have access to several keys at any one time, and also because of the perspective of the game you'll know that a door is locked as soon as you set foot in its room (at which point you're typically free to leave and find it).

but anyway, found the key, killed the too-easy boss, and onwards! to a fetch quest. that led to another fetch quest. that led to another fetch quest to the same location! (okay, fighting the enemies in the abandoned town was kind of nifty, though finding them all became tedious towards the end.) and then - the developers' solution to the clear unusability of the last dungeon's item outside of that dungeon was to implement a huge fetch quest based around it, with multiple locations all to be checked out, several of them in out-of-the-way locations, one of those the same out-of-the-way location i had just been forced to travel to, twice!

then, when i finally visited every location and finished the task, the game asked me for an exorbitant amount of money before i could proceed. i guess if the game was be going to such desperate lengths to slow me down, i must be near the end? (wind waker!) i was only ten rupees from the required amount, though, so i hacked a bunch of bushes until i had enough, constructed my metal gear, and was off to the seventh dungeon, which looks intriguing.

actually, let's talk about money for a second. in every dungeon i hit the limit of my wallet (you solved an elaborate puzzle to reach this chest! you can't carry the money inside, though - let's put it back!), but by the time i've reached the next dungeon i've usually spent enough to empty my wallet again. this isn't a bad cycle - it's certainly better than spending most of the game with a lot of money you can't do anything with. it's too bad, though, that it's mostly implemented by charging you for items that you need to proceed in the game - and if you run out, that means you need to stop what you're doing and trek to the other side of the world to buy some more.

what i do like about this game is that the world actually feels populated. unlike, say, ocarina of time, where i felt like i was saving the world for fifteen people, this game's castle town actually gives the impression of an uncountable number of people. i think this is mostly because it lets you talk to so few of them - most of the people who pass you (and the town is always bustling) have nothing to say to you (why would they?). since you can't name everyone, there's a feeling that there are more people in hyrule than you could ever know. it's a feeling the other 3D games have been lacking.

onward to dungeon(?) seven!
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dessgeega · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject:

also i like it when the kitties play with balls.

there are a lot of cats in this game.
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Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

I pick up a dog and carry it around everytime I see one. I wish I could do more with them!
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dessgeega · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject:

you could say hello!

also, have you tried speaking to epona?
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Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

Oh man, I keep forgetting I can talk to animals. Imagine all the nifty tips and hip advice I missed!

I'm kinda worried about finding out how Epona talks, though... I hope she is elegant, unlike the other animals I've chatted to!
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dessgeega · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject:

she doesn't say as much as i was expecting her to, but i gleaned some subtle insight on her character.
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Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

Yeah, she really misses Link when he's not riding her. Cute.

The moment I realised I might be able to talk to Epona I was like \(O0O)/

dessgeega · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:33 am Post subject:

i like that even the escape-dungeon item has her own story, even if it's a weak one.

dungeon seven isn't too bad, except that swinging from fan to fan is harder than it needs to be. and only zelda could make a fight with a dragon this boring. well, maybe final fantasy.

onwards into mystery.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Dess, I ... think that a lot of your complaints are compiled with the "rushing" through the game you're doing. While I noticed some of these things I don't think you're being quite fair.

The bomb thing in the house: you warp out to the front with the Ooccoo (the creepiest thing ever, esp. Jr.) then you warp to the village, run 100 feet, then go back to the dungeon, then go right back to the puzzle. It takes less than five minutes. I know because that exact same thing happen to me. I actually like that the game tricks you for being greedy when the new item becomes available.

The fetch quest for the "build" item to get to the 7th dungeon is a little irritating, and no where near as strong as any of the other things the game has you do inbetween dungeons. But money? I was always dumping money in the fund for the bridge just so that I could actually empty the dungeons of little yellow dots. I had more than enough to get that taken care of as soon as asked. The rest leading up to it though was the game being able to deliver "blue balls" for the next inevatable part.

dessgeega · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject:

that fight was too easy. the whole thing. i just want to frigging fight a boss with my sword.

and the real problem with the bomb thing was that i had no way of knowing that normal bombs would work where my shiny new ones didn't. and i'm not going to make a trip around the world (even if it only takes five minutes) when i havn't been led to believe bombs work in this particular instance at all.

but i am rushing through the game, and it is compounding every hitch that i hit, and that's not the game's fault. flaws are still flaws, though!
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

dessgeega · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject:

the darknut fight was admittedly awesome.

it's a shame that most combat doesn't measure up to wind waker, though. that game admittedly needed a "play hyrule castle again" button, but it was on the whole much more populated with engaging opponents. most swordfighting in twilight princess wii is just waggling the remote around while link executes a four-hit combo. i wonder if it's better on the gamecube.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Nana Komatsu · weak sauce Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293

GSL · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject:

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

All games are just input on a screen, except when they're not!
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Nana Komatsu · weak sauce Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293

Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

Yeah, I loved the boar riders bit! I was hoping I'd encounter more battles like that, and as with Nana, it's when I finally got more interested in the game and realised there might be some good times in this game after all.
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Mister Toups · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject:

there's definitely more of that to come.
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where were you when nana komatsu got a wii?

internisus · . Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 354

Announcement: I just bought this for GC. I am excited.

So I guess it will be awhile before I finish FFXII.

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

Announcement: I just bought it for GC also. After buying and finishing it for Wii. I hadn't planned to get both versions, but I was starting the game over anyway, and I thought, might as well see the game mirrored, both to see it as it was originally intended, and also to make it a bit fresher and less familiar.

I'm at the first visit to the Twilight Realm, and so far my impressions are mixed.

For one thing, I think the graphics are better on Wii! Maybe that "bloom" lighting is toned down on the Cube, or something. It doesn't look as vibrant somehow. Also, I miss the comfort of the remote/nunchuck, being able to recline however I want. On the other hand, pressing B to swing my sword feels like a novelty! Wow... so easy! Swinging the remote is okay, and adds some visceral excitement to the more intense fights, but it just feels a little unreliable, maybe because my arms gets into a rhythmic maraca-shaking motion when I'm doing some prolonged hacking, and somehow I start to do it wrong.

I like being able to rotate the camera, but I miss the "FREE" camera mode from Wind Waker! It's more like Super Mario Sunshine, for example, as C left and right judge nudge the camera, but don't fix it in place. Also you have a lot less freedom to zoom in an out. Basically there are three zoom levels, like Mario 64: First person view, normal, and far. The far view angles a bit more towards the ground, and narrows the angle of the lens so it doesn't take in as many objects in the distance. It's more for looking down at stuff in the immedaite area, not scanning the horizon as you run through a field.

The mirroring is affecting me kind of weirdly. There are a few cases where things look backwards to me, but most of the time I don't experience that so clearly. Instead, I just have a weird sense of disorientation, but not the kind you have in a new place. Things don't look fresh, as I had hoped; they just look vaguely wrong. I feel like I should know my surroundings, but somehow my judgment is off. It's a little unsettling.

Then there are miscellaneous tweaks, like when you aim your slingshot, you get an "in the head" view just like Ocarina of Time, not the Resident Evil 4 view in the Wii version.

I named my character "sorry." Only you can save Hyrule, sorry!
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Nana Komatsu · weak sauce Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293

The camera in the Gamecube version is driving me nuts.

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

How so?
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dessgeega · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject:

i just finished it.

so. i liked the first part of the eighth dungeon, but probably would have hated it if it went on for longer than it did. unfortunately, the rest of the dungeon was boring and repetitive. earlier i'd been impressed that the game avoided playing the "kill every enemy in the room to open the doors" card too often. well, that was pretty much all of this dungeon.

the boss could not have been more formulaic. it was aggressively formulaic. the very last phase was the only part bordering on interesting, though it was still too easy.

the final dungeon, on the other hand, is exactly what i wanted all game. lots of straightforward action and swordplay - let me actually use those skills i've been cultivating! - and fending off hordes of monsters at once. there were probably more "kill every enemy in the room" sequences than in any other dungeon, and yet i loved them because they all involved enemies who don't hinge on using a single item - you have options with these folks, you get to use skill. this dungeon was all this kind of enemy.

there was one really good puzzle and one totally inscrutable one (how was i supposed to figure out that the correct action to perform on the painting is "shoot with bomb-arrow" by anything other than trying everything?)

final boss: the first phase is a neat trick but a predictable fight, the second phase is the game hitting the pig ganon note on their zelda checklist. it's pretty inscrutable too, and it took me the longest time to figure out what the hell i was intended to do. the final half of the battle, though, was easily one of the game's best scenes. locking swords with ganondorf is spectacular.

the ending confirmed my suspicions that the game is a love story between link and midna. i approve wholeheartedly.

my final time was just over thirty-three hours. reflections later.
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Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

I actually really like the camera in the gamecube version. I can pan left to right at my hearts content, and anytime I get stuck on something (like in a room in a dungeon, for instance) I can just pop into first person view to scope things out before figuring out my next step. It really does a lot for the pacing of the game, and because you can't just swing it around at will like in Wind Waker there's a sense of directorial involvement that I get whenever I come into an area that has a fixed camera perspective or something like that.
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Mr. Mechanical

helicopterp · . Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

My favorite part of the Zelda games has always been the landscape. I love the scale, the interconnectedness, and the discovery of intimate, ancient places. I like seeing things that are far away, traveling to them, and then looking back at where I'd been.

Again, part of why I like SotC so much...

Wind Waker was such a tease about the Hyrule landscape. The ocean was a gutsy move by Aonuma, and could have been awesome... but I was happy to see screenshots of the new Hyrule as it appears in TP. And it is pretty great. The fields and forests are gorgeous, and it's great how you can see certain areas from several parts of the map. Sometimes you can spot a landmark half way across the entire overworld.

For the next Zelda, I hope they go even further with the landscape. It doesn't have to be realistic, or like SotC, but it would be really nice if it could feel even more open and organic and surprising. For example, it's very rare that you discover a path to an adjacent area that isn't clearly visible on the map. In general, wherever you go, you're immediately aware of the exits. You never climb up on a ledge, work your way up a mountain side, and find yourself in a whole new region of the map that wasn't obvious before. There are a few nice hidden areas, but these generally just lead to a treasure grotto or something. Throughout the game, you're walled in. Every environment, as lush as its foliage may be, is a little walled play pen. There are even a surprising number of corridor-like areas. In the forest this is particularly disheartening. It's got beautiful trees but the way you travel through it, it doesn't feel like a forest.

It's much less fun to revisit areas that are just direct paths from one place to another – and there are a lot of those in TP. The regions I go back to just to ride the horse or fight monsters or look at my surroundings are the areas with multiple exits, irregular shapes -- in short, something to negotiate. Not a rigid path that thwarts my impulse to wander and challenge the apparent boundaries.

I have to say, I am relieved that it's so much better than Ocarina of Time, though. I never understood the hub structure, especially on a cartridge format, where it's not like they were streaming in the next area or anything. (It worked for Majora's Mask, however, with that game's episodic structure, related to the four compass directions.)

You know?
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player 2 · . Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA

The hub format in OoT was because of RAM limitations. They probably could have gotten around that with really clever coding, but, hey, there's a point where you have to stop having clever coding and have a game.

One of the things that I really like in TP is riding Epona and pretty much being awesome about it. I wish there was more control, though. For example, why not let the gyroscope in the nunchuk control Epona while I ride around and aim my bow? It would've been really beautifully executed because it would be so natural to separate the two. A lot of my issues with the game actually stem from this - I wish it took advantage of the Wii remote even more. As is... it's just kinda fun.
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Nana Komatsu · weak sauce Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293

GSL · Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:12 am Post subject:

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Link is the great evil destroying Hyrule and the final boss fight is against Midna and Zelda.
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david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

player 2 · . Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA

Oh, well I thought you wanted free roaming, rock climbing, and parkour craziness ala GTA.

Designing exits and such shouldn't be much of a problem, but making them look good and not getting in the way of story design could be. Sad

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Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
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david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

No, I don't think I'm imagining anything unattainable with the N64.

I'd like a greater feeling of discovering the landscape, uncovering bits of it that feel really old and hidden away. That happens in TP, but only along the very specific story path that's laid out for you. For the most part, you know exactly the bounds of your environment, and the challenge is "activating" something in the environment, to proceed. There are few "hmm, can I get up there? Yes, I can! Now here I am, up here looking down at everything! I wonder where this path will lead..." moments. (If you'll allow me to characterize them as such.) To me, that would be a more exciting way to shortcut around, by learning the landscape and using hidden paths, or using the rivers.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

player 2 · . Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA

Is this TP or OoT that we're talking about?
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Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
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david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

I believe he's talking about TP, and yes, I know the part you're talking about and it was very cool. That's the kind of thing I'd love to see more of. But beyond that, it would just be super cool if those kinds of secrets didn't simply lead to a treasure cave, but took you somewhere else, so there would be more ways to traverse the landscape besides the obvious "doors" between areas. I mean, it doesn't feel right that there is ONE entrance to the forest.

Again, it's not a matter of realism or correctness, I just think it would add a lot to that feeling that the world holds lots of secrets... that the more you pay attention, the more you find. This is mostly achieved with hidden heart pieces and so on, but the most exciting kind of discovery for me is to actually work my way into a hidden spot, and maybe be afforded some unusual perspective on the landscape.

It's very "Epcot Center," in that every area is clearly delineated and laid out in a particular way for you to encounter. I mean, as chock full of great stuff as TP is, you are sheparded around most of the time, and just about everything is there to serve some particular part of the story. That area you mentioned is an exception, and I can think of a few others off-hand, but still it's rare.

There are a few secret caves that are pretty deep, but they feel like self-contained mini-dungeons, not really part of the landscape. If they had secondary exits to other zones of Hyrule field, that would give you an "aha" moment when you realize how things are interconnected.

I'm not being negative about TP, just talking about my own preferences and what would be a really cool direction to explore in a future Zelda, or other game.
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player 2 · . Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA

I think I know what you're getting at. I had the exact opposite feeling (although still positive) about Yakuza when I was playing it. There were tons of roads leading everywhere and there were lots of ways to get from place to place. If you needed to get health, you could detour to get health. If you wanted to avoid certain badguys you could take the long way. Or if you were feeling particularly badass (like the game encourages you to do) then you could confront the badguys head-on.

It's kind of a win win all around...
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Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp

SuperWes · Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:31 am Post subject:

Hey, I was reading the GameCube review of Twilight Princess over at 1up and I realized something that's missing from the Wii version. Check this out:

Link to the Past

Ocarina of Time

Twilight Princess
Map coming soon...

Doesn't Hyrule kinda look the same in each? The problem with the Wii version is that Hyrule doesn't have the locations in the same spot. The desert area's no longer in the West on the Wii, it's in the East! Zora's Domain is no longer in the NorthEast, it's in the Northwest! All of Hyrule's been flipped! With the Wii version I didn't catch on to the similarities to the past games present in the world, but looking at these maps it's apparent where they got their inspiration. The overview of Lake Hylia in the Wii version looks almost exactly like that picture of the OoT world.

The left-handed thing never bothered me, but seeing this I kinda wish I would have played it on GameCube now...
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david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

Yeah, I posted the same thing at selectbutton or insertcredit when I hit Hyrule Field in the Wii version. Frankly, I was annoyed that they'd messed up that sense of recognition that you're supposed to get.

The field outside Kakariko is what tipped me off. It's a lot like the same area in Ocarina, just much bigger in scale. The stream has become a gulch, but it still leads to the castle. And there's a bridge over it, as well as a promontory with a single tree overlooking the divide.

Also, the big tree on the island in Lake Hylia has become an enormous dead trunk in TP.

It's interesting to compare the LttP and OoT maps. There are some striking similarities (Zora's domain in the NE, but other things are flipped, like the Lost Woods, the desert and the lake. Ocarina was referencing LttP (in many ways besides the map), but most of all it was built to serve its own story and gameplay progression.

EDIT: But what about The Temple of Time? Anyone wonder why that is where it is in TP? I guess if bridges can move, a temple can move. Maybe someone hid it in the Lost Woods to keep it safe!
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GSL · Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject:

I'm sorry--after Ocarina and Wind Waker went to great pains to completely stomp out some of the conventions established in Legend of Zelda, Link to the Past, or even Link's Awakening, people are just complaining that the map doesn't line up?! After Ocarina completely raped Link to the Past's legacy, this is the sort of thing that screws up any sense of recognition?

SuperWes · Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject:

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

Yeah, I have no complaint about Hyrule's layout changing between games. It's just that TP is clearly meant to be a direct remake of OoT's Hyrule, so you feel like you're coming back to the same places, just bigger and splashier. So you could say Nintendo shot itself in the foot as far as achieving that impact. But they were making a trade-off in favor of right-handed controls, so...

But what do you mean about OoT and WW stomping things out? The only inconsistencies I can think of is that OoT appears to be about the Imprisoning War told about in the LttP backstory, complete with seven sages locking Ganon in the Dark World, except there's no war, it's just one kid running around tying things up while the rest of the populace mopes. And uh... the triforce was split at the end of that, whereas it's whole in LttP. As for WW... oh. I guess it does kind of mess up everything. But I just assumed there were hundreds of years between WW and LttP to get everything in place for the latter game. On the other haaaand...

No no no no no no no!

Excuse me please.
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internisus · . Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 354

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

dessgeega · Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject:

i think they actually need to retire some of the tropes ocarina established: specifically ganondorf as a villian and this ridiculous vague "ganon and link and zelda each have one piece of the triforce" thing.

the game has also been haunted by this "light world dark world" thing since 3 and would do well to drop it.
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