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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: Japanese First Person Shooters: Kileak, Epidemic, Brahma. |
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I have tried many of times to write in article detailing the use of first person camera views in Eastern game philosophy, and have failed every single time. I can however document the games that I have played that implemented the use of first person incredibly well such as the Dungeon Crawling Mecha Trilogy: Kileak: The DNA Imperative, Epidemic!, and Brahma Force. All of which I am 110% sure are connected in some way or another. Similar mechanical designs, level designs and weapon designs. The stories all vaguely deal with some sort of virus as well, which further links the games.
The number one problem with further detailing all of the games is finding information on the games themselves. No listings on any websites except small reviews, no rock star game designers who got their start with the projects, poor sales, e.t.c. So what has been your experience if any with these FPS? Perhaps, what has been your experience with any FP game itself from Japan?
King's Field? Eternal Ring? Coded Arms? Deception? What stands above the rest? IS there a paramount to all of it, or has it remained a shallow and stale genre trying to imitate it's Western counter parts? Does it have an evolution? So many questions, and yet very few answers.
So for fun, is there any future with the use of First Person in Japan? _________________
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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x operations is a pretty swell doujin freeware fps that i have been playing.
it's a lot like goldeneye. _________________
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jumping Flash! is a pretty cool FPS/Platform game!
Well, apart from the FPS levels.
I hear Breakdown on the xbox is pretty swell... when it's not trying to be an FPS.
Hmm.
Deception isn't really a FPS at all. I don't remember shooting anything. |
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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Cycle wrote: | Deception isn't really a FPS at all. I don't remember shooting anything. |
Correct, I should have stated that I meant the use of First Person in general. Plus it carries that same graphical interface as Kileak and Epidemic in graphics and controls. _________________
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Mr. Mechanical Friendly Stranger
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Uh, how do you download this? Because I can't find the link for the life of me. |
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Sushi d Moderator
Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 239
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DaleNixon .
Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 179
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Breakdown is pretty amazing. It's the first FPS I've played where you have legs when you look down and items you pick up are consumed or equipped in real-time. Even putting on a jacket shows you slipping it over each arm in first person! It's absolutely the most immersing first person game I've ever played. |
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squidlarkin .
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 100
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Rumblefish, please tell us more about the three games you mentioned because they're obscure PSX games that I won't be able to download and I've never heard of them. |
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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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squidlarkin wrote: | Rumblefish, please tell us more about the three games you mentioned because they're obscure PSX games that I won't be able to download and I've never heard of them. |
Well to start off Kileak: The DNA Imperative for PSX could be considered a sequel to the rather primitive Roboticia for the Sega Saturn. Robotica as a stand alone game was a spiritual successor to games like Space Hulk, minus the squad based themes. It was rooted in basic 3d graphics, overshadowed by the dark mass of the Cyber Dungeon of the Deadlus, the supposed colony ship you were trying to take over.
After Robotica's brief stint on the Saturn, a very similar game was released for the PS1, detailing the same type of game play. In all three games the player uses nearly the same exact mech, in a style very similar to Gungriffon. Control wise, weapons wise, it all ran together as Kileak's sequel, Epidemic! was released state side. The dark corridors of each game are encapsulated in an almost dungeon crawling aspect. Since Robotica, each level has been time based on an auto destruct system, either directly linked to your mech suit, or the actual level itself.
But, time is the greatest enemy. Because obtaining power ups and shields, along with brand new weapons themselves completely revolved around taking precious time to memorize their locations, making the experience much more fearful. Each game has possessed amazingly vicious enemies that can even sometimes downgrade your weapon's power ups by hitting you. Think of it like losing a level in an RPG, hence these FPS took on an RPG atmosphere, without the grinding. Then the last game in the series was released as Brahma Force. Note that I do not believe that in all seriousness the games are linked, but they share nearly the same mecha, enemies, virus storyline, and weapon design. Hence the flow chart of the time lien for these games would be as follows:
Robotica- Sega Saturn, produced by Sega, published by Acclaim.
Kileak: The DNA Imperative (Kileak: THE BLOOD-JP) produced by and published by SCEA, developed by Genki.
Epidemic! (Kileak: THE BLOOD 2-Reason in Madness JP) produced and published by SCEA, developed by Genki.
Brahma Force: The Assualt On Beltlogger 9- Produced and Published by Jaleco, developed by Genki.
My guess is that the developers of Robotica, or part of Sega's design team left after the death of the Saturn and migrated over to the Playstation in hopes of concluding or at least continuing the saga they had started. The Kileak series ends after two games, but starts up again as Brahma Force through Jaleco. Brahma Force is the ultimate combination of the series incarnate at that point. For the first time jumping puzzles are introduced with a control setup that was brilliant compared to it's brethren. Shoulder buttons were used to control lateral movement, along with horizontal and vertical alignment of the mecha's corsair.
All of a sudden you have access to five different branches of weapons followed by three to four different types of weapons in each class. More armor points, shield types, items, and wepaon power ups. Night vision, speed enhancement, stability upgrades, Brahma Force promised and delivered, and has been a staple of my childhood gaming roots.
I hope this sums it all up. Good luck trying to uncover the mystery behind it all. _________________
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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so x ops online is pretty great, especially since each game is over in about a minute. _________________
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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I also like how you only have one life, and once it's gone, it's off to the next map. Encourages tactics and actually valuing the life given to you.
I also love that on some levels, one side is way under-powered than the other team. You hardly ever win, but I think it's more fun being on the under-powered side and when you do occasionaly win, it's very rewarding.
And yeah, levels that last for about a minute. Then it's off to the next one with no loading times.
I remember playing a prank on my friend, trying to convince him that nintendo were making a Mario FPS called "Mario Paintball". Xops is how I imagined a Nintendo FPS game.
Let's all start a clan! |
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calintz .
Joined: 07 Jun 2005 Posts: 17 Location: Nagoya
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: |
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FPS is generally a genre which the Japanese have kinda failed to really rise above mediocrity, something of a similar story in terms of the west trying to create fighting games or turn base RPGs.
Coded Arms is my hope for the Japanese market, but seriously, when looking for FPS, why look to the east? _________________ ...九龍で会いましょう...(*☼_☉*) |
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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HOLY FUCK.
Lost Planet, that mech game set on a snowy planet developed by Kenji Inafune who also made Megaman and Dead Rising, is, at least partially, INSPIRED BY HALO.
WHAT? _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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calintz wrote: | Coded Arms is my hope for the Japanese market, but seriously, when looking for FPS, why look to the east? |
It's a comparison and contrast between the two design ethics. Western Game Design is obviously going to yield a much different result then Eastern Game Design. Halo vs. Coded Arms. Halo is obviously a much different beast, it's not about finding new equipment or dungeon crawling, it's about approaching situations with a constant state of weaponry. Master Chief doesn't change as a character as a whole, he can steal vehicles and shoot every weapon he finds, because that's in his character.
With Coded Arms, it forces the player to earn those abilities. To become stronger the player must first work harder, then come to terms with their new abilities and learn how to apply them. It's similar to the whole JRPG/ WRPG struggle. Similar, not exactly the same however.
Take for instance the games I'm talking about, Brahma Force is very similar to Coded Arms in that sense, you are not the same character by the end of the game. You're near god like, an unstoppable killing machine. The Marine in Doom from the start is an unstoppable killing machine, which I have no qualms with at all. In fact, it presents a better atmosphere for a first person shooter. I'm just curious to see where they could be headed in terms of development in these type of games. Where these Japanese FPS's share more in common with King's Field then they do with say Doom or Halo. That leads to some interesting development ideas.
In fact, I'm writing an article on this whole situation, so I'm kind of forcing myself to think tank about it all and really study it.
On a side note, I need to play this X Operations game. _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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You guys, the FPS is totally in contrast to Eastern art in general.
In Eastern art, representing reality completely is almost sacreligious. It would be like taking the soul of the object. That's why there are so many generalizations in Eastern art. It's also probably why they accept cartoons a lot more over there. In Western art, representing reality is almost the end goal. Even abstract paintings are explained in terms of reality.
In a Western RPG you create your own character and that's you. It's all about you. In jRPGs your character is your character. You are a separate entity completely. Itoi makes you completely aware. In fact, in any Western game you'll find that your characters are generally more bland, more tabula rasa so you can feel comfortable putting your big feet into their digital shoes. Compare this to Japanese games where you'll find that your characters have superfluous details like Blood type and Favorite Sport in their character sheets. And these things matter -in-game-. So while in the West you are free to do whatever you want, in the East you're still doing whatever the character in the game wants.
Now, you can find exceptions, but this is just how it works in general.
How does this apply to FPSes? Well, it's just fucking weird to abstract sight. 90% of Japanese games are 3rd person because it still is a system, an abstraction of reality. There are other reasons, but this is probably the biggest overarching one. In fact, any differences between Western and Eastern games can be described by the differences in Western and Eastern art. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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calintz .
Joined: 07 Jun 2005 Posts: 17 Location: Nagoya
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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You make an intersting point in reference to the art, which also can be a reference to the state of mind between eastern and western people. Generally, by eastern (gaming wise) one refers to the Japanese, right?
ok, once it has been theorised that the Japanese mind is different to that of the western. The Japanese think with logic as opposed to the emotional thinking of the west.
Given this, and taking it to the FPS point of view, can't one see that a systematic and almost workman-like rigor is placed in Japanese made FPS games, where as the western FPS, it relies in the gamer's emotions, providing an atmosphere, and a persona embodying all aspect of masculinity.
Japanese FPS (and JRPG) provide a logic in how everything is attained, from your emotion and your skill. In a western FPS, I think generally, atmosphere is made for one to delve into, become engrossed and eventually become experienced enough to continue on, not thru skill points or level points.
err...umm...I don't know if that made sense -_-"
it's like 3:45am here...and I should be asleep, not theorising FPS games :p _________________ ...九龍で会いましょう...(*☼_☉*) |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | The Japanese think with logic as opposed to the emotional thinking of the west. |
my eyebrow is raised with bemusement, but i would be interesting in hearing you expand upon this. _________________
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calintz .
Joined: 07 Jun 2005 Posts: 17 Location: Nagoya
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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it's been awhile since I researched this, but in short, Tsunoda Tadanobu (角田忠信) theorised in 1978's The Japanese Brain (under the influence of nationalistic pride that is Nihonjinron) that the Japanese thought differently than those of the west. He believed that the Japanese utilized the logical side of the brain when speaking, intercting, thinking etc. as opposed to the west using the emotional side of their brain. This in turn allowed him to raise his nation and say that no one but the Japanese can speak, read or write Japanese, since it all has to do with the way our brains work.
Obviously, this is was all taken to be pseudo-science, as he had nothing to back up these claims, and wasn't really considered a scientist, but he wrote alot of books regarding this topic in Japan. _________________ ...九龍で会いましょう...(*☼_☉*) |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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gotcha. thanks. that's interesting. _________________
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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TheRumblefish wrote: | Halo is obviously a much different beast, it's not about finding new equipment or dungeon crawling, it's about approaching situations with a constant state of weaponry. Master Chief doesn't change as a character as a whole, he can steal vehicles and shoot every weapon he finds, because that's in his character. |
so halo's a lot like umihara kawase, then.
also: "scientists report our brains bigger than those of other nations." _________________
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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | TheRumblefish wrote: | Halo is obviously a much different beast, it's not about finding new equipment or dungeon crawling, it's about approaching situations with a constant state of weaponry. Master Chief doesn't change as a character as a whole, he can steal vehicles and shoot every weapon he finds, because that's in his character. |
so halo's a lot like umihara kawase, then.
also: "scientists report our brains bigger than those of other nations." |
If you wanted to think of it in that sense, yes very much so. Of course this is my perception, if you can at least see that in a figurative manner, then that makes me happy. This is all very complicated in reality, especially when you drop the art-bomb on top of it, but Player 2 I very much understand what you are tying to say. I have to really think this all over now, with this new idea in mind. _________________
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dark steve .
Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I bought Maken X new in a store |
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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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dark steve wrote: | I bought Maken X new in a store |
Why so sad? I adore Maken X. Kazuya Kaneko's art work really makes that game though, I mean Cozy Okada rocks but I love the designs of those characters. Try and enjoy it! _________________
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OtakupunkX .
Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 730
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Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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I've always wanted to play Maken X, but I've never been lucky enough to stumble upon it anywhere, and I don't check eBay as often as I should.
I do own GunGriffon, which was mentioned earlier in the thread. It's an FPS in the very basic sense of the term (as in it's presented in a first-person perspective and you can shoot things), but I've always thought of it as a mech sim more than anything. It's worth tracking down if you like that sort of thing. |
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Have you guys ever played the either of the games in the Phantom Crash series? They're pretty much Japanese FPSes with giant robots and 3rd person... I mean... well, they play like FPSes. And they have an FPS mode that is pretty rad. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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player 2 wrote: | Have you guys ever played the either of the games in the Phantom Crash series? They're pretty much Japanese FPSes with giant robots and 3rd person... I mean... well, they play like FPSes. And they have an FPS mode that is pretty rad. |
S.L.A.I is the only game I own in the Phantom Crash series, and it does play exactly like a FPS. It is bitching! Very fast, incredibly fast gameplay actually. The only different camera views available during the actual game play is third person. But the replays allow a rather varied amount of camera controls, including a very cool first person mode. _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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The original has the best soundtrack from any game I've ever played. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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TheRumblefish .
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 258 Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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player 2 wrote: | The original has the best soundtrack from any game I've ever played. |
Well good! Because S.L.A.I at times has an teeth grinding soundtrack that makes me want to shut the music off completely. Which I find myself doing more and more. Out of 50 songs or so, only four or five are worth listening to.
Three Pinks, an old school Japanese Punk band have some good tunes on the S.L.A.I soundtrack though. What's Phantom Crash's like? _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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japanese ska and punk for half of it, some techno and other stuff fill out the rest _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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