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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: The princess is in another castle... |
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another facetious topic:
What is the role of Princesses in computer games? It seems to me that they (and girlfriends) are there to be kidnapped and thus give the protagonist a reason to go through the game. They also provide an easy ending point to the game. But why does the player play, is it to rescue the princess, or is it to enjoy the levels leading up to the end of the game?
Is Princess Peach real or merely the imagination of a sexually frustrated plumber?
Is Mario our Don Quixote, forever tilting at Windmills (giant turtles?).
What do these plots add to games? |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I thought Chris Crawford was our Don Quixote.
Also, this.
Seriously, to call recuing the princess the flimsiest and most cliched excuse for a plot in videogames is an understatement. Why was it so pervasive in its time? Well, SMB did it, and so clearly every game about jumping on platforms also needed a paper-thin plot about someone getting kidnapped. Creative laziness, nothing else.
Why was the kidnapping plot in Super Mario Bros? Because Pauline served a useful purpose in Donkey Kong, physically showing you your goal at the top of the screen. Similar purpose, but much less effective, and so it doesn't actually get a whole lot of weight put onto it. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:37 am Post subject: |
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tim boucher wrote a nice piece - now down - called "please rescue the pincess!" in which he argued that the stolen princess represents the player's anima, or feminine aspect, which must retrieved for the animus - masculine aspect - to achieve wholeness. like when the shekina was seperated from god, the land - the player's emotional landscape - has fallen into turmoil and balance can only be restored when the player's dual halves are reuinited.
that being said, i really hate playing games where men rescue women.
(and more joey comeau, please!) _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:44 am Post subject: |
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aren't princess rescues sort of 1980/90s? _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Resident Evil 4 is a postmodern take on the princess story. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: |
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I think this story is prominent because it's a fantasy convention that's well-known enough to give the player a reason to play the game without offering a lot of exposition.
Exposition sucks.
(Good call pointing out RE4. I guess Presidents' daughters are the new princesses!)
-Wes _________________
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friedchicken .
Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 496 Location: Port Land, OR
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: |
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player 2 wrote: | Resident Evil 4 is a postmodern take on the princess story. |
You mean the same old thing but with a whiney, irritating princess?
That was one of my biggest complaints about RE4. Ashley is little other than a load. My wife thinks they should have made her optionally controllable for the scenes that she's in. That way she wouldn't pull the old 1950's trick of standing there screaming while the bad guy throws her over his shoulder. Ugh. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:41 am Post subject: |
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just to continue my own windmill tilt exposition, half life 2 not only avoids that convention, it reverses it quite a bit in some cases. alyx is far smarter and better than gordon in a lot of ways. _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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friedchicken wrote: | player 2 wrote: | Resident Evil 4 is a postmodern take on the princess story. |
You mean the same old thing but with a whiney, irritating princess?
That was one of my biggest complaints about RE4. Ashley is little other than a load. My wife thinks they should have made her optionally controllable for the scenes that she's in. That way she wouldn't pull the old 1950's trick of standing there screaming while the bad guy throws her over his shoulder. Ugh. |
You obviously don't get it. Boys play videogames, not girls. We're action oriented. Leon kicks zombies in the face.
And. Resident Evil 4 really is a postmodern take on the princess story. It was intially going to deal with Leon and be this pompous pretentious "Resident Evil is literature" bullshit. And then it realized, holy shit, Leon is fighting zombies.
Meh. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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Mister Toups Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1693 Location: Lafayette, LA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Landstalker has the best princess to be rescued.
This topic cannot proceed without discussion of Super Princess Peach. _________________ where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
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Lackey .
Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking of the CD-i game(s?) where you play as Zelda. Where's Sce...panic? I'm really sorry.
All the screenshots of Super Princess Peach have the entire upper screen occupied by her face. This seems like it would be extremely disconcerting. But also, it's a little like if they made a DOOM port for DS. _________________ | Little bird fighting against a bat sect game | |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Lackey wrote: | All the screenshots of Super Princess Peach have the entire upper screen occupied by her face. This seems like it would be extremely disconcerting. But also, it's a little like if they made a DOOM port for DS. |
That's actually the bottom screen!
You play the game like a normal platormer, but princess Peach's emotions are needed to get through certain areas. You need to touch the emotion you want her to flip out with on the bottom screen and she flips out on the top screen. Imagine you need a river for some reason. You would press the "sad" icon on the bottom screen and have her cry a river on the top screen. It sounds delightfully sexist!
-Wes _________________
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Lackey .
Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada
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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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more like Super Princess P.M.T |
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Lackey .
Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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i don't think this thread and i are compatible anymore. _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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is the peach ds game supposed to be offensive or clever? _________________
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Hubz .
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Posts: 6 Location: Oklahoma, USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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It is an overused plot but really it's just an easy way to get the ball rolling if your story isn't going to be all that important, after all we enjoy Mario for it's gameplay and not it's simple plots
Yeah I'm not sure how I feel about Princess Peach but it looks kinda cool. I think it got decent ratings in Famitsu if that means much. _________________ - Dustin
www.spookytornado.com
www.dqshrine.com |
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Lackey .
Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Dessgeega wrote: | i don't think this thread and i are compatible anymore. |
You could still provide insightful critique, maybe.
Dhex wrote: | is the peach ds game supposed to be offensive or clever? |
I want to know who we can correctly ask questions like this. _________________ | Little bird fighting against a bat sect game | |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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To fully piece together the answer to that question you must learn that in Japan offensive=clever.
This is the country that gave a Seal (Tama-chan) citizenship, but refuses to give it to partial-Koreans that have been living in the country for thousands of years the same benefit.
-Wes _________________
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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To fully piece together the answer to that question you must learn that in Japan offensive=clever.
This is the country that gave a Seal (Tama-chan) citizenship, but refuses to give it to partial-Koreans that have been living in the country for thousands of years the same benefit.
God I love Japan.
-Wes _________________
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Persona-sama Weltbeherrschen Mangaka
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 709 Location: acrylic polymer dismutation
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 am Post subject: |
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What about Ico?
There's sort of a princess to rescue. It could also be survival horror though. _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | This is the country that gave a Seal (Tama-chan) citizenship, but refuses to give it to partial-Koreans that have been living in the country for thousands of years the same benefit. |
well, blacks are, like, exotic. they've been fighting koreans for, well, 1000s of years.
i mean, i think offensive things can be clever and all, but this is just plain stupid.
all of this gives me a great idea for a t-shirt though - a picture of mario with "sometimes bitches need rescuing" done in a nice pirate font. _________________
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:21 am Post subject: |
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No, not "Seal" the black musician. Seal the animal.
Read this story:
http://www.crazyjapan.com/CJT--May%2025_2003.html#tama
I'm honestly a little disappointed with the direction they took with Super Princess Peach. Mostly because now there's not a chance in hell it'll be released in the US.
-Wes _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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oh. well.
egg on my face, eh? _________________
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:54 am Post subject: |
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we can only hope. _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:17 am Post subject: |
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indeed!
Quote: | Mostly because now there's not a chance in hell it'll be released in the US. |
why? doesn't the stupidity sort of make it not worth playing in the first place? _________________
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | why? doesn't the stupidity sort of make it not worth playing in the first place? |
Never.
I mean, if you think about it, it's really not a bad idea. It's pretty cool that they're using your character's emotions as a gameplay element and I can see where they thought it was clever. I just think the choice of Princess Peach as a protagonist is a bit tacky despite how intuitive that choice of a character is.
They should have just created a new character and it would all be fine.
-Wes _________________
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: |
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I think maybe I would be remiss if I didn't bring up Eets at this point? |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:30 am Post subject: |
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huh. looks like they should have just licensed eets. _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Eets is gorgeous. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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what about James Sunderland? (SH2) |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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he's gorgeous too, i guess? _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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he talks too much like william shatner. _________________
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Mister Toups Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1693 Location: Lafayette, LA
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Silent Hill 2 is a pretty nice twist on the "rescue the princess" cliche, now that you mention it. _________________ where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | I'm honestly a little disappointed with the direction they took with Super Princess Peach. Mostly because now there's not a chance in hell it'll be released in the US. |
The hell it won't. it will get released right next to the pink DS. Why the hell not? Damnit. I guess I can import another game. Who designed the game? |
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friedchicken .
Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 496 Location: Port Land, OR
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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I'd love to see SPP released over here. There's been too little Super Mario Bros-ish platforming and way too much Super Mario Bros. brand dilution over the past few years (Mario Baseball, Mario Strikers, Mario appearances in NBA Street 3, DDR, SSX, etc., etc.). A new platformer along similar lines is sorely needed. Hell, I might even import it. |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:21 am Post subject: |
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friedchicken wrote: | I'd love to see SPP released over here. There's been too little Super Mario Bros-ish platforming and way too much Super Mario Bros. brand dilution over the past few years (Mario Baseball, Mario Strikers, Mario appearances in NBA Street 3, DDR, SSX, etc., etc.). A new platformer along similar lines is sorely needed. Hell, I might even import it. |
According to all of the information that I checked it's being developed by Nintendo. Which really doesn't mean a thing. But here's the Japanese site where you can watch movies. The game seriously looks awesome, which makes me change my assertion that it won't come out in the US. I'm pretty sure it will come out in the US now, but I'm not sure how they're going to get around the blatant stereotyping. Then again, maybe we're just blowing things out of proportion. I mean, nobody ever mentions the racism apparent in Street Fighter II.
-Wes _________________
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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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And what's up with Mario's moustache? is he hinting at a hidden side to his sexuality? |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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oh i get it because all moustachioed men are gay that was very clever _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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DonMarco .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 349 Location: 33903
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ketch wrote: | And what's up with Mario's moustache? is he hinting at a hidden side to his sexuality? :twisted: |
Only if he's from your wildest imagination! Teeheeheehee! _________________ Collector of over 1,538 strategy guides. That's weird, right?
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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what's...are you hinting that mario's a leather daddy? _________________
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Mister Toups Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1693 Location: Lafayette, LA
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:17 am Post subject: |
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No, sometimes have a mustache means you are a pedophile. _________________ where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
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aljones15 .
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 Posts: 5 Location: seosan, south korea
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:17 am Post subject: |
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as long as we're knocking japan may as well get all into their pedophilia
impulse
anyway, hoping to pick up super princess peach when it comes out what next week or so?
as for sexuality and all that. it seems to be that the princess in a far away castle was about as good as it got for stories with the original nintendo. Think about it, if you only got 8-bits and limited memory, the best thing to do is do something understandable and simple: hence Mario's ambigious kinda-sorta girlfriend gets kidnapped every once in awhile and a bunch of fairly simple textures are mapped into ever more elaborate patterns and designs, hence you get a lot of a cart with a minimal amount going in. Shaskespeare re-wrote ancient folklore, becuase everyone knew the story, he focused on word play and characterization, Miyamoto focused on platforming and a basic story that his predominately male audience could identify with. The problem I don't think is with the game, as much with the society behind the game although Super Princess Peach does seem a bit dainty for even Japanese feminity which is still what you might call pre-feminist by American standards, although the decourers running through Japan's reggae and indie underground do seem to be more in line with the American can do feminite mentality... |
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aljones15 .
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 Posts: 5 Location: seosan, south korea
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:32 am Post subject: |
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following up on my previous post, when super mario hit you couldn't compel a game by story alone (text based adventures aside), obvious context necessitated that story go to the way side, hence what makes SM so clever is that it managed to convey story simply by repeating several definied elements in increasingly complex puzzles. The puzzles were open ended though compared to traditional puzzles etc.
Miyamoto or whoever's choice to make the game about a guy rescuing a girl hardly seems sexist, in fact if anything Princess Peach seems remarkably unshaken by her ordeal etc. The point being, game design and technical limitations prohibted the creation of the fully fledged characters that defy stereotypes, even Mario could be constructed as a slight to Italians pretty easily (especially when porn stars portray you on children's shows). The problem with Princess Peach, which I do agree with, is that it continues to reinforce a stereotype when the technology is there to portray her as more than just a dianty princess, but let's take this as it: it's an ironic kid's game. The whole thing is nothing more than a wink and a grin for another good platformer. I don't think Nintendo intends to imply that woman actually work like Princess Peach if anything her new found action role seems to be a kitchy aside to who outdated her concept of feminity seems to be.
peace,
A |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Captain Lou Albano was a wrestler, dude.
Wikipedia wrote: | Mario's distinctive look is due to technology restrictions in the mid-'80s: with a limited number of pixels and colors, the programmers could not animate Mario's movement without making his arms "disappear" if his shirt was a solid color; they did not have the space to give him a mouth; and they could not animate hair, so Mario got overalls, a moustache, and a cap to bypass these problems. Mario's creator Shigeru Miyamoto has also stated when interviewed that Mario wears a cap because he finds it difficult to draw hair. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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to aljones15, everyone is a porn star. _________________
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