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Ketch .
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: Why I am not a gamer. |
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Selected quotes from Amandeep Jutla's thoughts on Starcraft.
"then again, Starcraft doesn't make me think about anything important.
and they aren't about ideas anymore: they're about computer games
And yet it's true. I don't care about games. I care about what they suggest, sure. Or what they imply. Or what they have to say. But the games, they can go f*(k themselves"
"
End Quotes.
Aye, personally I'm still interested in games I want there to be really cool games that can keep my attention and be worth my time to play and share with my loved ones. But, I don't find that they relate to anything except my willingness to shut myself in at one end the room hogging the T.V / computer and pleasing myself.
At the same time games which have something to say, often let me down because they aren't as focused on making an enjoyable game as putting across their message. I don't want to play some badly made game just to experience some VERY heavy-handed moralising or allegory.
For me games are a form of entertainment, and I'm starting to find that they have a hard time competing with things like videos (2 hours long, can be shared with other people at the same time), or T.V series. Or good old fashioned naughtiness. Or going out somewhere. Sure I'll play some of the classic puzzle games but I'm finding that the story based action-adventure are starting to get a bit tired. I'd rather save my money for more important things ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Tetris is another example of a Game For Its Own Sake.
DISCUSS. |
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ajutla Moderator
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Joined: 25 Oct 2004 Posts: 264 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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But I like Tetris.
Execution has a lot to do with it. Nothing in Tetris feels arbitrary; the game is holistic and if you're playing it properly, it envelops your entire mind. It's a lot like Riven in both of those regards. They're almost the same game approached from two different ends.
Starcraft consists of a bunch of shiny pieces that you play around with - and you know you're playing around with them, the whole time you're doing it. _________________
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wourme .
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 362 Location: Maridia
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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This isn't exactly a response to anything in this thread. I just figured it's more orderly to add it here because it's about the same article. Anyway . . .
Other than homebrew games and a few other exceptions (such as Plaescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate 2), Starcraft is just about the only computer (that is, non-console) game I've really cared to play in years. In fact, were I to suddenly decide to play a commercial PC game right this minute, it would probably be Starcraft. I've never cared about becoming extremely proficient at the game with hotkeys, etc. I'm probably not actually very good. But I do really enjoy the game.
My primary reason for playing video games is for the artistic experience (a creative or immersive world, a good story, etc.). My secondary reason is for fun. These two may not always be entirely separable, but I get them both in Starcraft. (Note: I have to add that I disable character portraits, disable all voices other than acknowledgement, and skip the cutscenes in the single-player game. These things severely cheapen the experience for me.)
That said, I understand one of the general sentiments of the article. I always look out for people who play video games at my work, etc. The funny thing is, many people I encounter play video games. They play them more than I do, even. But they only play online PC games. Other than month or so that I played Ultima Online and an occasional Starcraft game, I don't really play online games. I don't even like them. Really, the people who play them might as well talk about professional sports for all we'd have to discuss. Now, these people are far from the annoying examples in the article--they are people I actually like talking with. I just can't talk with them about video games.
I also understand the feeling of nostalgia for the old shareware games. But games like these are actually still made. More of them, even. Many are a little rougher and less commercial (or more often, not commercial at all), but the heart is still there. Even the fun readme files are still there. |
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Lackey .
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Your post ends rather abruptly Wourme, but you've echoed the exact sentiment I feel towards Starcraft and PC games in general. I will elaborate on this perhaps when I feel more able. _________________ | Little bird fighting against a bat sect game | |
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Bai .
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Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 24
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think a good game makes you feel something beyond the act of just playing around. Note the word 'feel'. It doesn't have to 'say' something and to hope for this is perhaps to (unfairly?) expect that games should behave like films or novels and convey a similar aesthetic message.
Tetris is a great example. The moments of play, as ajutla observes, seem to 'envelope your entire mind', they take you to place beyond mere moments. And you feel different, the interaction gives something back. Good games do this, they have a wholistic feel, an aesthetic logic that seems to come alive when you play.
I'd like to see more games do this, not try so much to make a 'statement' but to create a feeling. Not try to 'tell' a story through words and cutscenes but to build ('grow' might be a better word) one through actions. To reject the dichotomy of ideas vs entertainment altogether (arguably an artifact of other cultural fields) and do something different, on the medium's own merits.
If designers experiment with this kind of thinking, perhaps we will get less of the 'heavy-handed moralising' that Ketch mentioned (ie. Metal Gear Solid 2) and something more subtle or experiential instead. |
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simplicio .
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Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:00 am Post subject: |
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I'm with wourme on the lack of draw online play provides to me. I tried dilligently to get through the whole Starcraft SP a couple times, all without ever finishing the Protoss campaign, but I've never once played it online. I think online play seems fundamentally flawed to me (except for those few instances of co-op) due to the desire of most of the population to "win". Inevitably, to effectively play an online game you have to devote not only dozens hours to practicing, but many more to research the best way to play the game. I look at that requirement and I can't find any reward on the investment. Seeing myself on top of the scoreboard wouldn't be worth suffering through an experience of lengthy repetition and memorization, and online games really deliver nothing artistically worthwhile. So I stick to single player.
And Bai, the quicker way to end that moralizing would be for designers to hire decent writers, rather than people who've never read much beyond trashy supermarket paperbacks. And I'm not sure MGS 2 is the best example either, being one of the more experimental, literate and subversive titles available in mainstream gaming. Better to point the finger at just about any RPG, Japanese or otherwise. But then again, maybe we have to recognize that the gaming public largely digs that bullshit, cause the gaming public on whole isn't well read or particularly cultured, and it seems to think that KotOR has fantastic writing, and I'd better stop with that line of thought before I become even more bitter. |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:51 am Post subject: |
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DISCLAIMER: I have never played Starcraft and generally dislike RTS games. I am totally making wild, grossly unverified claims in this post. I also wave my hands a lot.
The feeling of losing yourself in the game, that you say Tetris gives you?
I get the same thing from Minesweeper, Picross, and to a lesser extent, Solitaire.
It comes from the constant, subconscious recognizing of patterns. You see a pattern, immediately form a strategy (oh, this piece fits there, or, oh, that square is a mine) and put it into action. It's satisfying. Your action causes new patterns to be revealed. And so, your mind just kind of... loops.
Something like Tetris, which is perfectly constructed to relentlessly reveal new patterns, and to train you to take ever-faster action... I mean, hell yes, Tetris is about as artfully pure as that sequence can possibly get.
But I'd be very surprised if higher-level Starcraft players didn't work largely by this same process of recognizing patterns and acting quickly on them. Instead of "move that brick over there and rotate it", the mental reflex becomes "hit these hotkeys, drag these guys over there to attack, harvest some more spice and build some more space roaches or whatever." The shit that gets in your way is essentially there to keep the action up; keep your brain in that recognize-act loop.
Thus, people get addicted to these mindless, repetitive things.
(This has been an unreview of all MMORPGs ever?) |
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Ketch .
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I find that these games (Tetris, Dr.Mario, Bust-A-Move) allow you to feel that you can -get better- at them, working out new strategies and being able to react quickly to the unfolding events. Is this deep and meaningful? |
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dhex Breeder
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Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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not really. at least, it's not any different than absorption through repetition by other means, outside of the form. _________________
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Lackey .
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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ApM wrote: | But I'd be very surprised if higher-level Starcraft players didn't work largely by this same process of recognizing patterns and acting quickly on them. Instead of "move that brick over there and rotate it", the mental reflex becomes "hit these hotkeys, drag these guys over there to attack, harvest some more spice and build some more space roaches or whatever." The shit that gets in your way is essentially there to keep the action up; keep your brain in that recognize-act loop. |
I knew a few pretty intense StarCraft players, and they do. Its a lot like the move/counter-move strategy in fighting games. People who are good are the ones who can improvise and act unexpectedly. _________________ | Little bird fighting against a bat sect game | |
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Bai .
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Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 24
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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simplicio wrote: | And Bai, the quicker way to end that moralizing would be for designers to hire decent writers, rather than people who've never read much beyond trashy supermarket paperbacks. And I'm not sure MGS 2 is the best example either, being one of the more experimental, literate and subversive titles available in mainstream gaming. Better to point the finger at just about any RPG, Japanese or otherwise. But then again, maybe we have to recognize that the gaming public largely digs that bullshit, cause the gaming public on whole isn't well read or particularly cultured, and it seems to think that KotOR has fantastic writing, and I'd better stop with that line of thought before I become even more bitter. |
I'll admit that gaming could use some decent plotlines. Emphasising good writing, though, can easily produce games that could have expressed their ideas better as novels. My argument is not against bad writing, but writing itself. I'd like games to be more experiential and for designers to think wholistically about games and the gaming experience rather than trying to improve particular, isolated aspects (like writing or graphics or AI, etc.).
I think Metal Gear Solid 2 is a good example of how too much writing (no matter how good) can lead to a lot less game. It contains interesting ideas about American power politics and digital information but making the player read reams of dialogue and cutscenes is perhaps not the best way to be 'experimental, literate and subversive' about those issues in a videogame context. He might have considered writing a novel or a film instead. |
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Ketch .
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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(Hideo Kojima needs to work with Quentin Tarantino to re-write and edit his scripts). . |
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Scratchmonkey .
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Bai wrote: | It contains interesting ideas about American power politics and digital information but making the player read reams of dialogue and cutscenes is perhaps not the best way to be 'experimental, literate and subversive' about those issues in a videogame context. He might have considered writing a novel or a film instead. |
Unless conflict between the reams of dialogue and the nature of the text as a videogame was an intentional design decision.
Which would be pretty 'experimental, literate and subversive'. |
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kirkjerk .
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Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Ketch wrote: | I find that these games (Tetris, Dr.Mario, Bust-A-Move) allow you to feel that you can -get better- at them, working out new strategies and being able to react quickly to the unfolding events. Is this deep and meaningful? |
I know I'm dredging up an old post, and ain't even on the meatiest part of the topic, but the single best example of that kind of strategy development I've seen is in Panel de Pon / Tetris Attack / Pokemon Puzzle League.
The difference between a duffer and an expert at this game is ASTOUNDING. Other games where I see gurus play, well I dunno. I can see them move fast, and they consistently kick my ass, but at least i feel it's the same game. The patterns that an expert player sees in Tetris Attack....wow. I can't believe what they can extract from a pile of colored blocks, what absolutely poetic 3 and 4 chains they can arrange from a set where I'd be lucky to get a 4- and 5-combo.
Anecdote:
Historically I've been the best gamer in my family, but when my Mom or Aunt specialized in game that caught their interest (Tetris, 2600 Ms Pac Man + Burgertime, etc) they'd kick my butt. So Tetris Attack was one of those games... until I started playing "competitively" w/ my main gaming buddy Evil Bastard. After a few months of regular play, I went back to my family and where thye used to smoke me, now I would easily beat them, and take a 7 or 8 speed while theye were on 2 or 3.
So I went to Philly Classic and decided to try my luck at the Tourney there. After convincing the "moderator" that running games at speed 1 was going to take FOREVER, things got down to business.
I got totally killed in the first round, by a guy who had honed his skills in a dorm setting. He went on to get utterly demolished in the 2nd round.
I have no idea how the hell the great players at this game see what they see, how they can look so far ahead and pull order from the chaos. |
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Boss .
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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ApM wrote: | Tetris is another example of a Game For Its Own Sake.
DISCUSS. |
Yeah,very good,i agree with you. ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) _________________ Thank you for spamming! |
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kirkjerk .
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Boss wrote: | ApM wrote: | Tetris is another example of a Game For Its Own Sake.
DISCUSS. |
Yeah,very good,i agree with you. ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) |
Isn't every game for its own sake? At least ones that aren't trying to get a moral lesson across?
Maybe you mean "is abstract and fairly free of representation of the outside world". Which is kind of true, but it still has blocks, and it's probably not a coincidence that the blocks come down and stack up, a rough parody of gravity and building activities.
Core War... now there's Game For Its Own Sake ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ =/ \(<D)_/
==/\/ >_ kirkjerk.com |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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ApM wrote: | Tetris is another example of a Game For Its Own Sake.
DISCUSS. |
Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games is another example of a Sports Game.
DISCUS. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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That joke was so bad it killed the forum for a whole month. |
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kirkjerk .
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Harveyjames wrote: | That joke was so bad it killed the forum for a whole month. |
Yeah.
And my Core War reference was f'in brilliant. _________________ =/ \(<D)_/
==/\/ >_ kirkjerk.com |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Yeah well my James Pond reference is fin brilliant. |
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