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So, GTAIV
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whats with all these SB posters coming over and crapping up TGQ
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D-A-I-S wrote:
I rather liked the city in Vice City - even though I recognize that it lacks real wilderness or variety, I found it very easy to get a handle of while still frequently showing me places I'd never really explored before. Also I once modded a car to be super fast and I found that if I took the right jumps, it would essentially bounce between buildings like a giant pinball.

I know I'm biased because it was my first real entry into the series, but I agree.
It seemed to have less purposefully annoying and confusing street layout; just around the north bridge, the airport, and this weird way I'd always be heading west when I thought I was heading north near the east side of the south bridge.

I remember GTA:VC getting some design awards, and I generally agree with that, though I alaways turned off the "super glare and smear" visual effect.

Getting back to GTA4:
For a game with some hype about moral decisions, SPOILER FROM FIRST SEGMENT
it's kind of weird they added a "press RT to execute!" button along with the old standby "press Y to carjack!", and then don't give you much of a choice about using it even as your cousin is begging you not to
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaleNixon wrote:
Cycle wrote:
Scratchmonkey wrote:
Yeah, it's essentially GTA3 with a nicer, bigger city and with arguably worse missions. While I'm having a blast with it, it really is an incremental improvement along the same lines that the series has been heading as a whole rather than the revolution than it's being made out to be.


Yeah, this is pretty much the impression I've been getting from everywhere except SB where they're hyping it just as bad as the mainstream media. It's a bit dissapointing, but I'm sure I'll still have a grand time with it when my copy arrives. Glad I didn't pay full price, though!


It's not even GTA3. It's missing a ton of GTA elements. No military, no rampages, no ambulance/fire truck missions, no hidden packages, no car export side-missions. I ran around the town looking for stuff to get into and stuff to unlock and whatnot while avoiding the main game. When I realized there's really nothing at all to do it just felt so empty.


Um... it's got police missions, taxi missions, courier missions, export missions, hidden packages, etc, etc?

The only difference seems to be that you unlock most of these side-mission trees while doing the main game.

I haven't seen any rampages, though. I guess that ruins the game??
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Mr. Mechanical
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been reading message boards all over the place and one thing I've noticed consistently that people seem to complain about is the linearity inherent in the narrative structure of this game. Basically people are complaining that certain things like the side missions are effectively locked until you open them up during the story. I can see where they are coming from but I think they're looking at this the wrong way.

Rockstar New York spent a lot of time writing the story and creating the characters and Rockstar North spent a lot of time creating the world that those characters inhabit and all the myriad ways that players can eventually interact with it. I cannot fault them for wanting people to actually see the fruits of labor rather than just setting them loose from the start.

Kind of an example of what I'm talking about here: the vigilante misisons. I just opened these up and they're great. You access the crime database from inside a police cruiser and you can chose between hunting down current lawbreakers (timed events) or tackling the Most Wanted list (lengthier, non-timed events that involve tracking down criminals and their friends and sometimes chasing them if they manage to get away when you find them). Taking down the ten most wanted criminals from that list will net you the achievement but the current crimes list will always be continually updated for however long you decide to do this activity. I like that there is both purpose (the most wanted list) and an option to just chase down bad guys.

The thing about it is though is that you can't do any of this until you do a mission for someone that involves using the crime database. For some this seems like an artificial way of extending the things you have to do story-wise in order to do the extra side stuff. I can see that. However I think what most aren't seeing is that for better or for worse in GTA IV you ARE Niko Bellic and he's an immigrant fresh off the boat with no clue as to what's up in Liberty City. He has to rely on the people he meets to discover new things to do in the city, and you just happen to be along for the ride that is his story. I think that's pretty cool and this is kind of what I was talking about earlier when I mentioned that they had scaled the game back quite a bit from San Andreas. The game is structured such that there's practically nothing you can do that isn't "in character" for Niko Bellic (aside from killing random pedestrians and running from the police, that is).

So this is probably the most fundamental shift that they've taken with the series. The game is created around the story instead of the story being created around the game. This is a great direction to go if you happen to be on board with that story and that character (which I'm pretty engrossed in at the moment yet have no problem ignoring it while I do other things like the unlocked side missions and exploring and such), but it leaves many feeling ultimately restricted in this great big game where there is supposedly so much freedom. The game no longer offers ultimate freedom but rather selective liberties you can take within the context of the character and the story. It's this shift that people are taking contention with, I think.

It's no longer a game that's just about giving you a big city and a bunch of stuff to do in it (though the game still manages this in spades), rather it's now a game with the purpose of making you care about the guy you're playing as and what's happening to him. Though it's not like San Andreas where there was a bunch of extraneous fat that ultimately didn't matter at all (like working out, customizing your car, etc.), it's all boiled down to the essence of what it's like to be a newly arrived immigrant in a large American city. Basically everything you do in between the major story missions is like filling in the margins of a novel with your own details and events.
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
Rockstar New York spent a lot of time writing the story and creating the characters and Rockstar North spent a lot of time creating the world that those characters inhabit and all the myriad ways that players can eventually interact with it. I cannot fault them for wanting people to actually see the fruits of labor rather than just setting them loose from the start.

The funny thing is, they're also working to withhold some of the fruits of their labor; like I guess there' s tons of dialog you'd only hear if you, like, fail a mission, and retry it (without wussily reloading, a trait I tried to give up after GTA:VC -- especially when I learned that they have an anti-frustration "easy-fier" I was likely thwarting.)

Quote:
However I think what most aren't seeing is that for better or for worse in GTA IV you ARE Niko Bellic and he's an immigrant fresh off the boat with no clue as to what's up in Liberty City. He has to rely on the people he meets to discover new things to do in the city, and you just happen to be along for the ride that is his story

...

So this is probably the most fundamental shift that they've taken with the series. The game is created around the story instead of the story being created around the game. This is a great direction to go if you happen to be on board with that story and that character (which I'm pretty engrossed in at the moment yet have no problem ignoring it while I do other things like the unlocked side missions and exploring and such), but it leaves many feeling ultimately restricted in this great big game where there is supposedly so much freedom. The game no longer offers ultimate freedom but rather selective liberties you can take within the context of the character and the story. It's this shift that people are taking contention with, I think.

Yeah, and SAME SPOILER AS BEFORE BUT WHO CARES, IT'S EARLY IN THE GAME when you feel railroaded into killing Vlad. It's highlighted by not being a proper cutscene; the player has to pull the trigger, but I don't think declining is an actual option, and Vlad's last words are on a dumb tape loop. Again, it's this weird dissonance: maybe because I would probably listen to Roman pointing out killing Vlad will just make life tougher for us, it seems like what's her name is a bad girlfriend for Roman anyway, I'd choose not to kill Vlad then. But I recognize Niko is coming from a different worldview. Heh, weirdly, the whole player-controlling-character scheme is reversed -- I the player become Nikko's puppet -- and I'm truly compelled to roleplay Nikko. This would feel different if the whole thing were just a cutscene-- I'm used to accepting more railroading then, but interaction usually implies choice.

Quote:
it's all boiled down to the essence of what it's like to be a newly arrived immigrant in a large American city. Basically everything you do in between the major story missions is like filling in the margins of a novel with your own details and events.

The writing in this game is really hit or miss, a combination of situation and dialog. So the game is screaming at us "THIS WOMAN IS AN UNDERCOVER COP", and fine, I can live with the "audience" knowing something that the character doesn't (what's the artsy name for that? Dramatic Irony?) But then on Nikko's second try for Jermaine's mission, he makes sophisticated jokes and does a great deadpan impression of an undercover cop.

Overall I'm liking this game, but it feels...I dunno, transitional, in a grand way. I think they're reaching towards true flexibility, putting in enough prerecorded speech to handle a wider range of player-driven plot choices, but they aren't there yet.
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DaleNixon
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

purplechair wrote:
DaleNixon wrote:
Cycle wrote:
Scratchmonkey wrote:
Yeah, it's essentially GTA3 with a nicer, bigger city and with arguably worse missions. While I'm having a blast with it, it really is an incremental improvement along the same lines that the series has been heading as a whole rather than the revolution than it's being made out to be.


Yeah, this is pretty much the impression I've been getting from everywhere except SB where they're hyping it just as bad as the mainstream media. It's a bit dissapointing, but I'm sure I'll still have a grand time with it when my copy arrives. Glad I didn't pay full price, though!


It's not even GTA3. It's missing a ton of GTA elements. No military, no rampages, no ambulance/fire truck missions, no hidden packages, no car export side-missions. I ran around the town looking for stuff to get into and stuff to unlock and whatnot while avoiding the main game. When I realized there's really nothing at all to do it just felt so empty.


Um... it's got police missions, taxi missions, courier missions, export missions, hidden packages, etc, etc?

The only difference seems to be that you unlock most of these side-mission trees while doing the main game.

I haven't seen any rampages, though. I guess that ruins the game??


Oh hell apparently I jumped the gun here. So I'll get to this stuff eventually then? I usually like to use it as a way to get familiar with the city BEFORE I start working hard in the main game.
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dmauro
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of having to do missions to unlock stuff, that's nothing new to GTA. You always had to unlock new areas. The nice thing about GTAIV is that I don't actually have to unlock any of the other islands because I can go there with a six-star wanted rating instead of hitting an invisible wall.

I'm not surprised that some of you are having a lukewarm response to this because I'm pretty certain that much of the reason I am enjoying it so much is because I love playing a GTA that so closely mimics the city I live in. That, the cover system, and the lack of load times are what have got me playing this game when I've never been interested enough before.

Did San Andreas have load times or was it seamless like it is in IV?
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

god little jacobs car is SO HUGE i keep runnin over da clots and da innocents
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmauro wrote:
Did San Andreas have load times or was it seamless like it is in IV?


EDIT: I thought it was seamless, there were loading times on some of the bridges/country highways now that I think about it though.

And I'm definitely not having a lukewarm time with it, I love the game so far; I just think it's an incremental change rather than an exponential (or logarithimic) one.
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Pink Teddy Bear
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like how the world was hating GTA for how violent it was and how much it corrupts our kids, and now all of a sudden the whole world is celebrating GTAIV like it's this revolutionary title that will change gaming as we know it.

Kinda odd.
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Mr. Mechanical
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmauro wrote:
On the topic of having to do missions to unlock stuff, that's nothing new to GTA. You always had to unlock new areas. The nice thing about GTAIV is that I don't actually have to unlock any of the other islands because I can go there with a six-star wanted rating instead of hitting an invisible wall.


Well it's different in that in past GTAs you could hop into an ambualnce/taxi/firetruck/etc. right from the beginning and do that sort of thing before you even started the game proper.

Quote:
Did San Andreas have load times or was it seamless like it is in IV?


The only load times I ever saw in San Andreas were when entering buildings. Other than that it was totally seamless.
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
dmauro wrote:
Did San Andreas have load times or was it seamless like it is in IV?


The only load times I ever saw in San Andreas were when entering buildings. Other than that it was totally seamless.


I'm pretty sure there were loading screens on some of the bridges/crossing some of the landmarks that showed you postcards -- Welcome to Los Santos, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pink Teddy Bear wrote:
I like how the world was hating GTA for how violent it was and how much it corrupts our kids, and now all of a sudden the whole world is celebrating GTAIV like it's this revolutionary title that will change gaming as we know it.

Kinda odd.


You obviously didn't read the GRAND THEFT KNIFING headlines in the UK!
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Mr. Mechanical wrote:
dmauro wrote:
Did San Andreas have load times or was it seamless like it is in IV?


The only load times I ever saw in San Andreas were when entering buildings. Other than that it was totally seamless.


I'm pretty sure there were loading screens on some of the bridges/crossing some of the landmarks that showed you postcards -- Welcome to Los Santos, etc.


Trust me, there weren't. That was part of the big thing about it compared to Vice City and 3, the only load screens you saw were from entering buildings.

Not to say that you wouldn't see a loading screen if you were somehow moving from one area to another so fast that the game couldn't stream it quick enough, but that was just a "loading" in the corner of the screen, not a postcard.
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Cycle
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played GTA:SA the other day and there are no load screens. Vice City was the one with postcards.

Guys, Australia is the only country in the world to get the censored version of this game, and there are people who STILL want to ban it. Man, we're such a backwards country sometimes.
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
I played GTA:SA the other day and there are no load screens. Vice City was the one with postcards.

Guys, Australia is the only country in the world to get the censored version of this game, and there are people who STILL want to ban it. Man, we're such a backwards country sometimes.



Don't they understand that if they ban it, people will just order online?
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SO FOLLOWUP TO MY PREVIOUS MINOR SPOILER LADEN POST:
So I'm redoing some of the early missions, and just found out that I accidentally glossed over both some running jumping tutorial as well as a plot shifting "kill him or don't" point that railroaded me into being darker than i wanted later (i think)

So I dunno. If I was really "playing" the game, maybe I would've held off on killing him anyway, the game hinted at that. But it's the tension between morality and story driven gameiness that's getting me down now.

EDIT: i take it back. the game really wanted me to execute Vlad. And when I molotov'd him the cutscene still showed the pistiol shot.
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like this installment is doing for GTA what Double Dash did for Mario Kart: it removed obsolete abstractions. Everyone was used to the old way of doing things; the new way isn't necessarily better. It's just less abstract. That's arguably desirable in and of itself, I guess, but I'm not yet convinced either way.

dmauro wrote:
On the topic of having to do missions to unlock stuff, that's nothing new to GTA. You always had to unlock new areas. The nice thing about GTAIV is that I don't actually have to unlock any of the other islands because I can go there with a six-star wanted rating instead of hitting an invisible wall.


You could do that in San Andreas too, FYI.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting, how did Double Dash do that for Mario Kart.
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
That's interesting, how did Double Dash do that for Mario Kart.


1. No more bunny hops with the R button.
2. No more ring of spinning shells when you picked up 3 shells.

I was always surprised this didn't get more attention.
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah. Actually, I was disappointed at the removal of both of those things.
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I didn't hear about the GTA knifings! Was it anything like the Ninja Gaiden DS knifings?
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, it was just a piece in a right-wing British newspaper that said children all over the UK were stabbing each other to get their hands on Grand Theft Auto.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
I mentioned it earlier in the thread, it was just a piece in a right-wing British newspaper that said children all over the UK were stabbing each other to get their hands on Grand Theft Auto.


Oh you wacky guys! Whats the UK equivalent of "shiv"?

Wonder what the next setting for GTA will be, and if it will be 5 or just a place name.

I always thought a " blade runner" setting would be interesting, but that might just be my scifi bias showing, and flying cars might not really work with the franchise anyway.

Did that "swinging London" gaiden come out before Austin Powers movies?
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
EDIT: i take it back. the game really wanted me to execute Vlad. And when I molotov'd him the cutscene still showed the pistiol shot.

Was he on fire during the cutscene?
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isfet showed me this yesterday. it's very impressive in terms of how they amalgamated landmarks and the visual style of various neighborhoods here.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm. This summer's trip around Virtual New York is reminding me of last summer's trip around Actual New York. Right down to the bit where dess sniped a helicopter pilot out of the sky and then stole his ride.


Well, I guess that sounds really obvious, huh?

What I mean is, when I'm stumbling around Star Junction at night and trying not to get run over, it sends me right back to actually stumbling around Times Square and trying not to get run over, and feeling really fucking hot and humid.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, that doesn't sound much more insightful, does it?

I just think it does it really good, okay?!

I, A FOREIGNER WHO HAS SPENT A FEW DAYS IN NEW YORK, CONCUR WITH DHEX, WHO LIVES THERE, ON THE MATTER OF HOW WELL GTA IV CAPTURES THE APPEARANCE OF NEW YORK.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a strong testament to how well they've captured the essence of the city is not so much how I'm reminded of where I live when I play the game, but how much I'm reminded of the game as I walk about Brooklyn.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah it feels like New York to me, and I've only been there once like TEN YEARS AGO (maybe even fifteen). I want to go back sometime, though.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm wrote:
kirkjerk wrote:
EDIT: i take it back. the game really wanted me to execute Vlad. And when I molotov'd him the cutscene still showed the pistiol shot.

Was he on fire during the cutscene?

No it just skipped the execution and went right to the body dragging
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm feeling a little tired of the mission structures in terms of not having a lot of leeway for ad-libbing. I just feel that going on a hit and running inside and yelling "I'm here to fulfill a contract on you because this other guy doesn't like you!" involves suspension of disbelief to the point of hanging it from a tree until it is dead. Also, I'm fine with the game forcing me to have gun battles or car chases in some missions, I'd just like *some* chance to stretch my legs by choosing how to deal with a situation* rather than playing through 8 billion "cinematic-style" scripted sequences.

* - There were at least a couple missions like this in GTA3, although they seem to have moved away from it as the series has continued. I guess I should really just play Hitman games instead.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a lot of this game in a suit using the pistol. I pretend like I'm 47 walking around in New York. Really I should just play Blood Money more I think.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only times I've really noticed a great deal of choice comes from bits where you can choose whether or not to kill someone. There's been a few times where I was told to kill someone - usually by the briefing text, rather than the NPCs themselves - and I chose not to, and the NPCs have acknowledged this during their debriefing. And also, times where I've killed particular NPCs (like, characters that aren't significant enough to have a name, but have unique positions) that I wasn't told to kill, and it's had an impact on the mission.

And, once or twice, I've chosen not to kill someone, and failed the mission as a result. Which can seem a bit harsh, when you weigh it against all the times that you're allowed to do it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
I'm feeling a little tired of the mission structures in terms of not having a lot of leeway for ad-libbing. I just feel that going on a hit and running inside and yelling "I'm here to fulfill a contract on you because this other guy doesn't like you!" involves suspension of disbelief to the point of hanging it from a tree until it is dead. Also, I'm fine with the game forcing me to have gun battles or car chases in some missions, I'd just like *some* chance to stretch my legs by choosing how to deal with a situation* rather than playing through 8 billion "cinematic-style" scripted sequences.

* - There were at least a couple missions like this in GTA3, although they seem to have moved away from it as the series has continued. I guess I should really just play Hitman games instead.


Yeah, this is something I was worried about and I'm pretty dissapointed to hear it's the case. I loved the open ended structure of many missions in GTA3 (or the earlier GTAs!) and get frustrated that each got more and more restricting. This is supposed to be a sandbox game, damnit! Let me do things my way and stop making me listen to all your writing!
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I allude to it above, my moment of utter frustration with this was when I was given a side-mission to go off some guy and when I pull up to his house, it triggers a cutscene where Nico walks into the house, says "I'm going to kill you because so-and-so wants you dead and oh shit, you've jumped out the window" only not actually that last part, you just stand there like a dumbshit while the guy jumps out the window and then YOIKS time for a high-speed car chase.

It's not a thematically-important mission, or one that you have to do at all. The player has all of these tools and a fantastically-realized world to apply them to, so why the designers felt that it was better to railroad the player into yet-another car chase rather than allow the player the choice of:

a) triggering the car chase
b) throwing a molotov through the window when he's taking a piss
c) sniping him from the roof across the street when he goes out to walk his dog
d) running him down on the sidewalk on his way to work
e) starting a gun battle in his office after tailing him
f) any other piece of hilarious violence that the player can come with,

I have no idea!

It's not even that hard to implement considering that they force you to do these things in other missions. As Cycle says, it does seem like Rockstar has just fallen in love with their cinematics and characterizations to the point where you have a game with a sandbox engine that's bizarrely obsessed with constrained narrative.


Last edited by Scratchmonkey on Mon May 05, 2008 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how's the writing?
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty good*!

The main character is kind of a problem in that regard; that's really unavoidable in a game where you allow the player a relatively wide moral latitude though.

* - For videogame writing. While the various claims that this would be an Oscar-worthy script are insane, it's made me laugh out loud numerous times.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the railroading is frustrating, as is the irregularity of the "allowed" moral decisions.

Regarding that guy taking a piss mission... yeah. It's not just the cinematics then but also the scripted events during the car chase, barrels rolling off a truck.
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing I'd like to say is that I regularly take taxi rides with other NPCs to and from missions, using the cinematic camera while they discuss things with Niko.

Which basically turns it into a user-created cut-scene.

Fuck you, Valve.
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:


That's like a Herb and Jamaal reference. 'Hey, did you hear the latest about the celebrity millionaire heiress?'
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Urgh!

I'm on some mission where I have to kill this guy, and the game is like "RUN! RUN! HE'S GETTING AWAY! DON'T LET HIM ESCAPE!", and he's got loads of guards, and I'm just killing a few and running past so that he doesn't get too far away, except of course he's not ACTUALLY getting away, he's just scripted to make a break for it every time you complete a section, so you can actually stop and take your time and kill all the guards at your own pace, and it's not really all that urgent.

What's REALLY pissing me off about it is that he doesn't seem to spawn until you trigger him, so you can't just take him out with grenades before he sees you. And even then, I managed to unload my SMG into him from a few metres away, and he still just kept on running like nothing was going on. Chances are, I can only kill him after we've completed this ridiculous "chase", and he's made it to his vehicle.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like there's some kind of "uncanny valley for moral decisions."

Vlad sent me after that one guy who escapes to the construction site (and I suspect some of these car chases are somewhat rigged so you can't catch up, but I haven't tried it with a super duper car yet)

So the first time through I shot the guy as he was climbing up a crane... mission accomplished.

Then I started playing the game over at my gamebuddy's... this time I didn't have a good shot, and I realized that I had missed the "running and jumping roofs training" the first time through... and THEN I had missed the option to let the guy go, or, I dunno, stomp on his fingers and have him plunge to his death.

And now I'm hearing that there have been other times where I assumed I "had" to kill a guy, even though I'd be more interested in playing Niko more morally, but it turns out many times I could have progressed without the killing - but not everywhere.

So I dunno! I suppose I always have the option of treating the game as a "walking around town simulator", like that old My Trip to Liberty City video, just looking for stunts etc... but there's an incentive to play the game in such a way that triggers most of the interesting storyline and content.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I take it just letting the dude escape and not killing him is Mission Failed but actually following the mofo all the way to the top of a crane to not kill him is recognised by the game as acceptable.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
So I take it just letting the dude escape and not killing him is Mission Failed but actually following the mofo all the way to the top of a crane to not kill him is recognised by the game as acceptable.


well, it makes more sense in terms of narrative logic. letting some asshole get away from you and letting some asshole get away from you when you have him cornered are kind of different things.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, if this was a film, but it's not.

So basically you only get the choice to let him escape when the game says you have the choice to let him escape, even though for the entirity of the events leading up to that moment you actually do have the choice to let him escape. This game obviously works on a level I have no hope of understanding.

P.S. Dark Age Iron Saviour; that last bit was irony, in fact I think it sounds retarded.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could think of it as, like... if the guy outruns you, he just goes home and says "Phew!" and has a lie down and continues doing whatever he was doing to upset Vlad. But if you catch him and let him go, he's had it driven home that Vlad is out to kill him, and he stops doing what he's doing.

Or you could think of it as confused design, yes.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, yeah, I understand. Still, though, it's not exactly 'sandbox' gameplay. It's about as sandbox as Max Payne in that respect.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's a weird expectation to have for a console game, however.

or the gta series in general. it's never been that sandboxy within missions at all, for better or for worse. i'd lean towards worse myself, but i think sometimes people expect far too much from games that already do a lot.

no, we don't yet have a crime simulator that dispatches actual cops to your house, allowing you to experience a glorious standoff without having to join a fringe economic movement or religious cult. but we're getting there. maybe you can't go out in a blaze under proud cries of "rahowa!" just yet but you can shoot hipster girls and pile up on cops all you want until they send in the swat team, just like real life.
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