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daphaknee just enemies now
Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Posts: 892 Location: YAY AREA
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I never considered it a puzzle game, its just a game that focuses on puzzles
big difference (to me) |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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i feel comfortable calling it a puzzle game. _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Well, this is a good question. See, a Puzzle Game is generally something like Tetris (i.e. something that you play over and over again to solve puzzles as the arise). This is a game that is basically a giant puzzle. So, technically it is a Puzzle Game, but it's probably better labled as one really big Puzzle. Nothing like Tetris or the sort. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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fish .
Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 113 Location: montreal
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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in finished portal.
i now think its the best thing to happen to the medium in years.
no less. _________________ you cant spell selfish without fish |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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fish wrote: | in finished portal.
i now think its the best thing to happen to the medium in years.
no less. |
I agree! But... I also kind of wonder how much this has to do with the fact that it's only 2 hours long. If other games were whittled down to just their essence and polished to perfection, even if it shortened the experience immensely, would they all be this good?
-Wes _________________
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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they'd be better than they are now, at least. _________________
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Agreed. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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fish .
Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 113 Location: montreal
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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its the ideal game.
also, i nominate that voice, whatever her name is, as character of the year.
the game is brilliant.
and by that i mean smart.
and by that i mean funny. _________________ you cant spell selfish without fish |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I agree completely, but had Portal been a $60 game, $30 game, or possibly even a $20 standalone game we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Barely any of us would have bought it and no matter how much those of us that did buy it went on about it everyone else would have seen the "two hours" quantifier and waited for it to go down in price.
See Rez as an example. It's not quite the same thing, but how many of us paid $50 for that when it first came out? (I did, but I wouldn't have if I didn't see "discontinued" in the GameStop system a week after its release)
I admit to talking in theoreticals, but if games suddenly got really good and really short (and not in a way where there's incentive to play them again later for score), what would you be willing to pay for them? And do you think that paying this amount would be enough for the game developers/publishers/GameStop to make a profit?
-Wes _________________
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fish .
Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 113 Location: montreal
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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portal would have a been a wonderful downloadable game.
but i think its in a perfect position, being part of the orange box.
i think it adds tremendous value to an already impressive package, despite how short it is. it just rounds it up so nicely.
on the other hand, i payed a hundred dollars for my copy of Rez.
but i still consider that one hour the finnest ive ever spent in front of a TV set.
but you know, if it WAS a standalone game, and priced acordingly, they would have probably made it a lot longer, possibly diluding it in the process. making it a lesser game.
the fact that it only lasted 2 hours means that i actually finished it. which is something special to me nowadays as even the most polished and spectacular games out there almost always manage to bore me before the end.
always leave them wanting more. _________________ you cant spell selfish without fish |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Short games cost less to make, Wes. Honestly if they just sold Portal in a box for $30 I would own it already. If they made Portal 20 hours long or whatever and sold it standalone for $60 I wouldn't.
The trend that I see in game pricing is that companies are starting to occasionally release games for cheaper (Katamari Damacy, Cooking Mama), then when they sell really well, they release a sequel at a higher price. Which is irritating. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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on the other hand it means more chances for games like katamari, etc. _________________
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fish .
Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 113 Location: montreal
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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katamari was the previous best thing to happen to gaming in years.
i see a pattern. _________________ you cant spell selfish without fish |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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it was a fun game. so is portal. best thing ever? no. it was cute.
i don't have the indie mindset towards games so consider me the linda rondstadt fan of the crew here. _________________
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of whether it's "indie" or not I think it's a good sign for the future of episodic content*.
* - The Orange Box I think proving that bundling of episodic content will probably be a pretty important part of the process. |
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fish .
Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 113 Location: montreal
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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i didnt say it was the best game ever.
i said it was the best thing to happen to games in a while.
big diff. _________________ you cant spell selfish without fish |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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yeah either way it's a bit too belle and sebastian to go tossing about such words when half life 2 exists. but again, not a puzzle guy, uncouth lout, etc etc etc etc etc and so on.
clouds in my coffee...clouds in my coffee*
*i obviously meant carly simon before. i have no idea who linda rondstad is, apparently. _________________
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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ApM wrote: | Short games cost less to make, Wes. Honestly if they just sold Portal in a box for $30 I would own it already. If they made Portal 20 hours long or whatever and sold it standalone for $60 I wouldn't. |
Not sure if you own it yet, but I hear it's available on Steam for something like $20 or $30 by itself. If you haven't bought it yet, put your money where your mouth is!
Honestly, I don't think The Orange Box is indicative of Episodic Content doing well, I think it might even be the opposite. I think Valve must not have been super happy with Episode 1's sales/reception at $20 (I hear it became a $10 download fairly quickly) so they came up with this package deal idea and ran with it. I could see a Green box potentially coming out in the future that features Team Fortress 3, Half-Life Episode 3, and Portal 2 for $60 before I could see Episode 3 coming out as a standalone $20 game again. I think Valve really likes the idea of episodic content, but may have learned gamers would rather pay more for more content than pay less for less content. It's really fucked up, and I have no sales data to back it up, but this conclusion wouldn't surprise me one bit.
I want to make it clear that I'm playing devil's advocate here and I personally think Portal is pretty much perfect the way it is, part of a bigger package or by itself. I'm just not sure what the best way to sell something like that is with the state of the industry being what it is.
-Wes _________________
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | Honestly, I don't think The Orange Box is indicative of Episodic Content doing well, I think it might even be the opposite. I think Valve must not have been super happy with Episode 1's sales/reception at $20 so they came up with this package deal idea and ran with it. I can see a Green box potentially coming out in the future that features Team Fortress 3, Half-Life Episode 3, and Portal 2 for $60 before I saw Episode 3 coming out as a standalone $20 game again. I think Valve really likes the idea of episodic content, but may have learned gamers would rather pay more for more content than pay less for less content. It's really fucked up, and I have no sales data to back it up, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit. |
My comment regarding it doing well is that it seems that both people who would prefer the bundle and those people who would prefer to just buy the games individually are happy and I don't think it necessarily means more money lost for Valve because the digital distribution model prevents multiple SKUs from digging into profits too harshly.
I'm pretty much agreeing with you that bundles are going to have to be a major part of offering games as episodic content; however, the Orange Box is still a compilation of episodic content rather than a single game.
I fully expect Valve to continue to offer both the bundle for online and retail sale and digital distribution for individual episodic games. It'll be a nice transitional state until we get to the point where the market is mostly digital distribution. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | ApM wrote: | Short games cost less to make, Wes. Honestly if they just sold Portal in a box for $30 I would own it already. If they made Portal 20 hours long or whatever and sold it standalone for $60 I wouldn't. |
Not sure if you own it yet, but I hear it's available on Steam for something like $20 or $30 by itself. If you haven't bought it yet, put your money where your mouth is!
Honestly, I don't think The Orange Box is indicative of Episodic Content doing well, I think it might even be the opposite. I think Valve must not have been super happy with Episode 1's sales/reception at $20 (I hear it became a $10 download fairly quickly) so they came up with this package deal idea and ran with it. I could see a Green box potentially coming out in the future that features Team Fortress 3, Half-Life Episode 3, and Portal 2 for $60 before I could see Episode 3 coming out as a standalone $20 game again. I think Valve really likes the idea of episodic content, but may have learned gamers would rather pay more for more content than pay less for less content. It's really fucked up, and I have no sales data to back it up, but this conclusion wouldn't surprise me one bit.
I want to make it clear that I'm playing devil's advocate here and I personally think Portal is pretty much perfect the way it is, part of a bigger package or by itself. I'm just not sure what the best way to sell something like that is with the state of the industry being what it is.
-Wes |
I think the problem is mainly that they take longer on these 'episodes' than they would like, and they've got a publisher who's like 'yo, give us something to release now please', so to placate them they have to bundle all their little game modules up and it all ends up being closer to the standard release model than they wanted. |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I honestly don't see how the bundle is somehow opposed to the episodic gaming model. |
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | the linda rondstadt fan of the crew |
Sounds like somebody is jockeying for a new custom title. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Scratchmonkey wrote: | I honestly don't see how the bundle is somehow opposed to the episodic gaming model. |
Yeah, I guess it's not! Good point! |
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ryan .
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to see the numbers for how well the new Orange Box content sells outside of the bundle. It seems very much like a MS Office situation to me in that very few people will actually buy the material separately because of the basic savings - inflated so for previous owners of older goods - buying it in a package. _________________ Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart. |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'm guessing that it's gonna be that way, yeah, although I would be interested to see what the Orange Box vs. individual sales would be on the PC only, since the episodic content isn't available individually on 360/PS3. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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man looking at ep2 screenshots (now that i finished the game) i realized the sky isn't supposed to be yellow!
i will update my drivers and try again on thursday probably. _________________
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The Great Unwashed .
Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 359 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Still, that doesn't look bad as yellow. Very eerie and atmospheric for sure. _________________
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | Not sure if you own it yet, but I hear it's available on Steam for something like $20 or $30 by itself. If you haven't bought it yet, put your money where your mouth is! |
As soon as Steam comes out on the Xbox 360 or my PC stops sucking cocks in hell, I totally will.
Also, when your "episodes" are released more than a year apart, that's not episodic gaming. That's jerking around the expectations of your customer. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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the answer was that color correction doesn't actually do anything but suck.
apm: no that's called serving up tasty slices of greatness in a package that is pleasing to the eye and ear. _________________
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The Great Unwashed .
Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 359 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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The time between episodes is fairly irrelevant as long as they are all part of a continuing saga, I'd think. It's more about consistency of experience rather than promptness of delivery, especially if that promptness interferes with that consistency. _________________
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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They're releasing full-length stories a couple of years apart. That sounds episodic to me. I mean, I guess they could release a chapter every two months, but the quality wouldn't be as good. Gaming isn't TV, guys. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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fish .
Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 113 Location: montreal
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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i think its a wonderful coincidence that HL2 is one of the very very few doing episodes like they do because HL2 has one of the very very few stories i actually give a fuck about.
wait, no, scratch that, its not the story, its the characters.
i was geniunely happy to see Eli last night. it had been a while. _________________ you cant spell selfish without fish |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | The Orange Box [...] Episodic Content [...] Money |
I think that Valve is very smart here and knew exactly what they were doing with The Orange Box, and it has more to do with the Customer than cost. I.E. if you keep the customer happy you get more sales and more sales at lower prices is better than less sales at higher prices.
Valve has been working with package deals for a while at Steam and they've aparently been doing quite well. Packaging three games worth $60 into a $30 package was somehow getting them more money than selling the games seperatly, while also keeping people happy only want one small slice. The Orange Box breaks down like this:
Team Fortress 2: $30
Portal: $20
Ep. 2: $30
Ep. 1: $10 (On sale currently, normally it's $20)
HL2: $30
They're selling a $120 package for $50 (those are all PC prices). Not only are they making it look like an amazing deal, but they're also double selling copies of games (people who already have HL2 and Ep. 1 for example are still saving money).
Though, that's not as good of a deal as some of their other packs. The Sam & Max episodes, iD Software, Valve packs (multiplayer packs, source pack, HL1 pack, Valve Complete). They've been marketing like this for a while and it's been getting people to play games they don't normally play and at prices they're more than willing to pay. I know that "the bottom line" is what they're working towards, but they've aparently realized that more customers is better than higher profits for less sales. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Ethoscapade .
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 276
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I have a hard time believing more than $20 for HL2 proper or more than $20 for Ep2, but hey, the point stands. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Ethoscapade wrote: | I have a hard time believing more than $20 for HL2 proper or more than $20 for Ep2, but hey, the point stands. |
For people like you (and me) they package this stuff together! See how that works? _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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ryan .
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: |
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It seems like an easy way to pad the deal. Sure, they can charge $30 for TF2 by itself, but is anyone buying it like that?
And when is episodic content no longer episodic? If it's simply by a character continuing on, then there have been oodles of successful episodic titles; if it's based on a time frame, as Valve seems to have suggested in the past, then I think they are sneaking up on Expansion Territory. Sam & Max would seem to be the standard model, with new portions of a story coming out at regular intervals, but the Disciples series did something similar years ago and simply labeled the new releases as expansion packs. _________________ Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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ryan wrote: | And when is episodic content no longer episodic? |
Well, episodic content seems to be: a scheduled release of one story over time. When it becomes sequels is when they break up the story. Also, an important part is probably the release schedule itself. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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ryan .
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, that's what I'm saying, if all that is the case then these are like focused expansion packs, which has been done for years now. I look at Sam & Max as the standard, and Valve isn't anywhere near that. Their work seems to be a weird mesh of the two. _________________ Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart. |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well, Valve takes a really long time to do their games, so it would make sense to view content as "episodic" when it's taken relative to the release schedule of a "full" game.
Given the vague definitions of "episodic", "full release", "upgrade" and "expansion pack", there's going to be a certain amount of semantic overlap.
The important thing is that something very different from the HL1 -> HL2 progression is going on. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
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More weighted companion cube desktops
One involves cake. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Portal is totally gay. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Huh. That's interesting. I'm ok with the symbology of the gun shooting orifices, but it's this idea of non-violence being feminine and violence being masculine that bugs me. These people have obviously never head of Queen Boudicea, or Margaret Thatcher. |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Or sex or childbirth. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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fish .
Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 113 Location: montreal
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: |
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vagina gun. _________________ you cant spell selfish without fish |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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i dunno about you guys but when i go in a vagina i generally don't come out the other end because i'm pretty sure that's a) impossible and b) murder _________________
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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and c) a total turn-off _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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i figured that was implied. _________________
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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guys you are gross don't be gross _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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When I go in a vagina my dick comes out a hole in the wall and knocks over a robot. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | guys you are gross don't be gross |
yo i'm not the one who's all "now you're playing with portable vaginas" like a japanese vending machine on repeat. _________________
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