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YOU'RE THAT CREEP, NOIMAN CASCADE (midboss thread)

 
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: YOU'RE THAT CREEP, NOIMAN CASCADE (midboss thread) Reply with quote



his name is noiman cascade. he's the best hacker on the net.

noiman cascade is the lynchpin of contra: hard corps. his appearance resolves the first plot thread of the game ("our security system has been breached by an unknown hacker") and his defeat reveals the true villian's identity. he is the boss of stage three, one of only two stages that appear in every possible path through the game, and the midpoint of a game of six stages. he is the first true challenge that players must overcome.

noiman, a gibsonian net mercenary, is holed up under a garbage dump, guarded by androids, automated turrets, a biker gang and a giant robot made of junk. the real challenge lies within noiman's underground computer lab: noiman transports the player into the "virtual zone" to battle the first of the game's grand boss parades. noiman has six forms; the first three take the form of constellations, the latter three are made of an army of polygons which noiman rearranges into a collection of intimidating forms - a tank, a helicopter, a square that angrily pounds the ground attempting to mash the player.

surviving this gauntlet is no small task. getting through alive means coming to grips with the hard corps's slide move, not essential prior to stage three but crucial afterward. it means giving serious thought, perhaps for the first time, to the selection of weapons available to the player. a beginning player might use bombs to squeak through - she's found at least two by this point. bombs are hard corps's "get out of boss free" cards.

when noiman is defeated his polygon army scatters, the virtual zone fades to his computer lab, and he raises his hands. in virtual space, noiman is a force to be reckoned with - in flesh space, he is powerless. he gives up the name of his shadowy employer and the final act begins.

this is a thread for bosses - for minor villians. while the endbosses may put up spectacular fights with fanfare and fireworks on burning ships, it's the midbosses who test our mettle. who let us know if we're ready to step onto that stage of destiny. who point the way for us. seven force in gunstar heroes. the battleship in r-type. the villians might get the curtain, but it's these foes who light up the stage.

tell me all about the minor bosses who define their games to you.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have suffered a great many defeats at the hands of mr. cascade.

it took about five seconds of thought on the topic for one of my favorite bosses to come to mind: guardian's knight of thunder force v. unfortunately, the game is a shooter so none of the review or screenshot site got further than ten seconds into stage two when taking their pictures. i did however find a bitchin' model someone made, so maybe you can just imagine it in motion. making peew peew and fwooosh noises is optional.



guardian's knight is the point where thunder force v gets serious and introduces you to the tempo and tone of the endgame. while the first three stages can be played in any order, you can only reach the fourth after clearing the three before it. from here on out, you can no longer easily skip back to practice on an enemy or attack that gave you difficulty.

the location, babel, is a massive research facility built to house the game's antagonist, an ai known as the guardian. upon reaching its end, you find the villain has departed to command its war against humanity from an orbiting interplanetary battleship. in its place is guardian's knight, a transforming humanoid mech / high-speed fighter under the direct control of the guardian itself. this is where bosses go from fights to duels, and the game does its damnedest to convey the difference between mindless automatons and the calculating shrewdness of an intelligent entity that wants you to die.

guardian's knight is difficult to power through with brute force, which serves as a valid tactic for the easier bosses. the fight must go through three phases no matter what, which means it will always have time to use at least some of its attacks before going down. this isn't the first multi-stage boss, but while earlier enemies had one powerful, fast-acting attack, guardian's knight has a whole movelist full of them. there's very little warning to show it's about to go barrel-rolling across the screen with rear-firing energy beams on, or fill the tunnel you fight in with spam shots, or blast you with a souped-up version of your own laser weapon. sharp reflexes can win the day, but it's far more likely that you'll simply have to learn its moves and the body language that signals them. death means not only loosing any special weapons you were using, such as the free-range that serves as the silver bullet for every fight in the game, but you'll also have to return through the initial three stages again should you get a game over. there's a frantic dread here that doesn't really come through by watching skilled players blast through the encounter on youtube.

best of all is that you don't actually destroy guardian's knight. once it takes enough damage that death is inevitable, it instead chooses to go out in a blaze of glory by charging its laser up until it outputs a roaring, screen filling blast that whites out the tunnel, incinerating itself in the process. if there's one thing i love, it's an enemy that can die with some freakin' style.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh man Guardian's Knight is awesome. Isn't singling him out as having 3 forms unfair considering that the 3rd stage boss (ARMAMENT ARMED ARM is a name that is difficult to forget) also has 3 forms? I mean dude, that thing was destroyed three times and rebuilt twice. Consider its feelings in all of this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll choose Final Fantasy VI.

The thing is, looking back for the sake of this thread, I realize how so many of the bosses I had in mind weren't, in retrospect, that difficult. But I remember the context that surrounded them as a child, and they seemed a lot worse, and well. That's when I played it the first time. That's why I have nostalgia for the game. What follows is an overly nostalgic, overly embellished, highly unnecessary piece of something.

I'll start with Vargas.

When the player gets to Vargas, it's still relatively early in the game. He's getting used tothings; he's getting used to the varied enemies--he's getting used to status effects (being poisoned). He still hasn't experienced a real 'dungeon,' but he's getting a taste of what the word might mean.

Confident that his adventurers are mighty but still not quite comfortable in their clothes, he braves through the beasts of Mt. Kolts, chasing a mysterious shadowed figure through its caverns.

Not far in, the player makes his may through a tiny little winding passage only to see a man standing in front of the cave opening, blocking his path. Only one thing to do, then, right? And he jumps in.

The Final Fantasy VI player learns early on to get used to the feeling of being dwarfed by his enemies. Vargas is the first human "boss" character that the players encounter, and it is indeed terrifying to see this kung fu master suddenly towering over you, and with two bears to boot! Plus, think of all this through the inexperienced eyes of a four year old. It was epic! And the game had barely started.

But the bears aren't so bad, and actually, neither is Vargas. You keep pounding away until it triggers an event, and on comes Sabin to the scene. Your savior? Maybe. Vargas blows all your characters off screen with ease, again nudging your comfort zone. Now you have control of Sabin. And you have a timer above your head.

Oh god.

Vargas's figure standing there stoically was enough, but then it gives me a time limit?

My attacks seem fruitless. What? Blitz? It's asking me to input this command? In the middle of battle? Madness!

My furious attempt to input it failed so many times--so, so many times, and he sparkled, but he didn't do anything, and with each successive failure I panicked even more, seeing Vargas waiting there, patiently, gleefully, to do me in.

The command is stupidly easy to execute. The whole battle is really only there to introduce Sabin's character and what he entails--Blitzing. But my little 5 year old heart could barely take it.

After much huffing and puffing, when I could finally grip the controller properly, drenched in sweat (a weird quirk of mine...my hands get hot when i hold controllers, okay?), I execute the command and...yes. Pummel that sucker, Guile. I mean, Sabin.

It's all over as quickly as it began. Vargas fades to nothing. But the clothes I referred to earlier--they're suddenly a bit more comfortable. I feel like I've done something, and not with Magitek armor, or what have you, but with my own--Sabin's--bare hands. I'm still jilted by the encounter, but now, with a new party member on my side, I can be that much more confident. Onward I push, or at least, until I hear the ding of the microwave and I know my macaroni and cheese is done.

~~~

Well, anyway. I don't think that was the best one to choose in the game; there are tons. But, well. Too late anyway. I'm not good at the ESOTERIC DISCOVERY thing so Sad i tried.


Last edited by parkbench on Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't worry, these are exactly the sort of stories i'm looking for.

sharc wrote:
guardian's knight


FOR WHOM IS THE SWORD DRAWN?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Dead Rising's boss encounters! I'm not sure there's anything more postmodern than playing a Japanese game based on an American movie where you have a wild west-style shootout in a wild west-themed food court.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonMoses wrote:
Isn't singling him out as having 3 forms unfair considering that the 3rd stage boss (ARMAMENT ARMED ARM is a name that is difficult to forget) also has 3 forms?

sharc wrote:
this isn't the first multi-stage boss, but while earlier enemies had one powerful, fast-acting attack, guardian's knight has a whole movelist full of them.


don't mean to be a smartass! but yeah, i am well acquainted with armament armed arm. thunder force v is a game i don't even play thunder force v unless i'm alone in the house because the stage and boss music for human road must. be. LOUD.

ps: vargas made me choke and panic too. was that first blitz one with a quarter circle movement? i never used those in the entire game because i couldn't pull off the motion. although learning the suplex so sabin can backdrop a whole train = 100% worth it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah no problem sharc. I just wanted to write "ARMAMENT ARMED ARM" in a thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dess, I'm trying to think up arguments against you calling Cascade the lynchpin of HC - I've always hated that boss fight for some reason - but I just can't think of anything.

The other characters all have their own roles: Dead Eye Joe is your doomed yet honorable adversary no matter what, The Professor is the vile betrayer and more of a 3/4 boss than anything, and Bahamut is the end boss.

I would really like to say that Dead Eye is the real lynchpin of HC, since his role determines a lot of the emotion of the game (it's interesting how his various appearances change our view of him from an annoying henchman to a principled fighter committed to fair battle). Though his roel changes throughout each playthrough, yet Cascade always remains the same.

Then, I guess, can you think of any other famous Dead Eye Joe characters?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soldier Blade has that purple robot who promises to kill you but never really manages to get around to it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is any level boss a midboss?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

potentially!

i think deadeye joe is a more important character in the game but i don't think he tests the player in quite the same way as noiman does. just by virtue of the noiman fight's position - and length - it's a crucial trial-by-fire for the player. deadeye joe gets some good scenes but he's not a benchmark for the player's progress in the same way noiman is.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is amazing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a very cool thread but i'm having a real hard time thinking of any game i've played recently that had a midboss of any real kind.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always feel sorry for that artillery-like miniboss that comes crashing out of the wall in the first level of Contra III and explodes after about two seconds.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I just played Siren!

Siren doesn't have bosses per se. It has ridiculously strong shibito. Very often you can run away instead of fighting. What's interesting is that many of them are characters you've already played, and since the game is told nonlinearly, you might notice that you haven't seen the character in question die yet. So almost all the boss fights are a good surprise and a good storytelling technique. Damn near everything's contextual in that game.

I'll think of more later.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terminator 2 on the Genesis opens with a boss battle that offers sort of a preview of things to come.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cubivore Toy
Cubivore. I was going to transcribe one of the little poems but haven't picked up the game in a while.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's kind of surprising how, immediately after an insect from the future warns you that the Earth is under attack by Starmen sent from the cosmic destroyer, you find one of your greatest adversaries buried underground.

After you see it in your neighbor's basement, the Statue turns up in the village of the cult of blue, where it gave the cult-leader power over lightning. Later, an agent of the cosmic destroyer tells you that the Statue's been moved to the city in a bid for power--and sure enough, you arrive to find that the mayor has succumbed to its lures, giving the starmen's minions control over everything. When you try to intercede, you find yourself in a world of shadows, for the statue clouds the minds of those who come into contact with it.

The evil in humanity's heart is caused by Mani Mani.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SATIRES!

Metal Sliug's got some amazing midbosses. The section where you're running along the top of a train when Harrier jump-jet starts hovering over you trying to kill you with its jet engines, while tanks roll off its wings trying to land on you as they smash on impact is a bit much to say the least. I don't know how they explained that one to the quartermaster. 'So to accompany the supply train you want a harrier jump jet and 50 tanks. What are the tanks for?'

'Um...'

They'd have the largest army in the world if they weren't rolling tanks off cliffs and off the top of planes and other hairbrained schemes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The electrocuting shadow sting-ray in Super Mario Sunshine is the strangest beast Mario has ever fought, and it might be the most compelling mid-boss I've ever encountered in a game. It probably also is the hardest. For this battle, Mario finds himself on a resort beach at dusk, but he doesn't search the boss out. Rather, the shadow-ray enters of its own accord. The beast is enormous, and it sweeps across the stage towards Mario with terrifying purpose. What makes this battle so crucial isn't just the silent ferocity of the shadow-ray, but that the creature represents a perfect antithesis to the particular iteration of Mario that Sunshine manifests. Eschewing (in all but the bonus stages) the more daring leaps characteristic of most Mario games, Sunshine equips the plumber with a device that allows for near-constant hovering, the use of which ultimately becomes the player's M.O. for the majority of the game. The ground, then, as anything more than a mere launchpad, becomes more foreign to Mario than it ever had before. The shadow-ray only exists, basically, as a constant, moving danger on the ground, but one that is finally so pervasive that Mario cannot just skirt it as he does with so many hazards in Sunshine. Nor should one think of the shadow-ray as hazard or obstacle, which is how most of Sunshine's enemies truly end up coming across. The battle against the shadow-ray is a kill-or-be-killed occasion; the tension and imbalance between air-and-ground in the player's maneuver's through the meat of Super Mario Sunshine erupts into immediate elemental conflict.

The beast splits when it comes into contact with water, which is, conveniently, Mario's only weapon. But when it splits it movements become less all-consuming and more frenzied, which introduces a whole new conflict. Mario must glide as smoothly and carefully as he can in the air while the ground beneath him seethes with teeming, skittish miniature shadow-rays, all of whom are just as dangerous as the original behemoth. Picking off each one of these smaller threats--who, meanwhile, attempt to re-fuse into the larger monster--is a true test of Mario's skill hovering accurately and aiming his ornery water-cannon stream. There is no gimmick, no weak spot in the battle against the shadow-ray, but only a war of attrition finely tuned to the game's design.

Finally, the idea that the monster is a shadow with no source strikes a distinctly grotesque note. Mario has been pursuing his shadow for the duration of the game--chasing his mischievous "double" across all the stages. But that Shadow Mario is nothing more than a sham, a trick played by a child, and its form nothing more than a costume, a parody of a shadow that has the substance of a real thing. The shadow-ray is a shadow cast by no one and nothing. Like all true shadows, it only exists in two-dimensions, and it claims no pretense to substance beyond it's own shade.

Sometimes I like to think of this two-dimensional foe as Mario's conflict with his own history, the shadow of his former self.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that was excellent, helicopterp. the shadow ray is probably the best moment in mario sunshine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm surprised the cyber-demon hasn't been mentioned. the spider mastermind is the final enemy of doom, but the cyber-demon is the most memorable - the rock star.

the bruiser brothers of episode 1 are also tremendous. when the gates in phobos anomaly open and the twin barons march out howling, with them come the full force of the infernal element of the game, which to this point has been merely hovering on the game's periphery. the fight with two barons of hell inside a giant pentagram sets the stage for shores of hell, inferno, and the demon bosses that come after them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dess; yeah, good call on DOOM, those 2 were the perfect cap to the freeware version, especially how THEY get dwarfed in later episodes, but are so much tougher than anything else you'd faced 'til then.

And then the cyber-demon...giving him a machine gun version of what was then the ultimate multiplayer weapon short of the BFG (which would've just not been cool, given the non-projectile nature of the BFG)... so very menacing. (I like the level in a later game where you then hae to set the giant spider guy against the cuber-demon)

helicopterp -- very good post, and enough to inspire me to give this a shot... it takes a lot of work, my mind isn't indexed on minibosses, but luckily I've been logging the books, movies, and games I've finished since 2000 or so and I have a good candidate... even more luckily, I wrote a [url="http://kisrael.com/vgames/faq/dk64_boss_strategy.txt"]faq for the bosses of the game[/url], the only one I've had rejected from GameFAQs.

DK64 was a glorious misfire, possibly the pinnacle of the collect-a-thon aeshetic of 3D platformers. It had some good points: very pretty for the time, a neat variety of playable characters with different abilities, a number of welldone minigames (including emulation of the original Donkey Kong and Jet Pack) and one of the strongest sets of Boss Fights on the system.

(And the game knew that Boss fights were a big attraction, allowing each to be selected from a menu screen once it was defeated... I long for Zelda to swallow its pride and allow that kind of interactive re-enactment of some of the best parts of the game (Wind Waker had a touch of that with a greyscale Boss Rush on the way to the end, but it's not the same))

King Kut Out was a crude parody of the villainous King K. Rool, assembled by his henchman. The introductory sequence, watching the Kremlings scurry and giggle and assemble a giant billboard like parody of their tyrannical master in the stormy weather (admission: I just found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2ULYMnaaQ0 and refreshed my memory. Also my FAQ is the #1 non-video hit for "King Kut Out") was just such a clever idea... dramatically, I don't know if they built it out of fear, or a sense of prankishness, or to win brownie points with their boss.

The Kong has to turn itself into a simian projectile, firing at the cut out as it pops up in sequence behind one of the 4 walls (odd castle.... the moat is on the inside) Firing where Kut Out isn't retires the Kong and another has to give it a shot. (I think this marks the first boss to involve multiple Kongs, a prelude of the multi-round boxing match finale. Prior to that, a single Kong was elected by an almost mystical force in the boss' antechamber to engage in one on one battle.)

The first 3 firings are straight forward, but even a succesful hit involves a swim back to the central island.

The second 3 involve not being fooled by a shimmering, ghostish duplicate... a copy of the copy, recursively decreasing in fidelity, though the danger increases with the laser beams. And the seeming enemy ghosts (apparently kremlings in sheets... echoing the theme of falsehood on this level) are actually a gift from the designers, a chance to regain health lost.

Eventually the strategy for observing Kut Out's pattern and predicting where he will be when the cannon is fired requires good pattern recognition and coordination of audio and visual clues.

So, not the world's greatest game, but a bit under-rated, and with a good variety of boss fights (Mad Jack was really clever and devious and annoying, and driving a motorboat to fight Puftoss was just plain fun... though 2 of the 8 bosses were duplicates) and the penultimate boss set up the finale really well.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other thoughts, looking over my gaming history:

The Operatic Singing Dungheap of Conker's Bad Fur Day. The lyrics were as uninspired as the dialog and voice acting in the game, but it was amusiing in an adolescent way.

Taking out that Star Destroyer in Rogue Squadron 2: the geek fanboy in me knew it shouldn't be "possible", the pure fanboy in me just didn't care. The sense of scale was astounding, twisting around to make another bombing or strafing run...

Star Fox 64: the Macbeth Train. this is one of the few levels where the boss isn't just waiting for you at the end, but you're travelling along side the whole way. (Well; it's arguable; there's a more traditional boss that can get released at the end, but it can be circumvented through skillful play.) Nice sense of railroady motion, and if you do flip the switches, the explosion was both visually satisfying and a terrific introduction to the power of the new rumble feature...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All three of the bosses you fight in Jet Force Gemini at the end of each character's path are really great. For those of you who haven't experienced the awesomeness that is Jet Force Gemini, there aren't really any bosses until the end of each character's path, which feels like kind of a gyp until you realize how much work Rare put into these fights and how awesome they are. In an age defined by a glut of 3D platformers, getting something truly amazing was worth only having one boss per character.

The most noteworthy thing about these fights is that they actually don't take place in the normal 3D playing field. You are instead restricted to a 2D plane, shooting the monster directly in front of you (kind of like the bonus stage with the moving platform in the Alien arcade game, if you remember that). These stages are also hard as all fucking hell; the hardest of the three, the twin mantises, took me two hours of trying to beat. To compensate for this, you have unlimited lives during the boss battle. It's rare (no pun intended) for a company to realize the difference between the feels of two parts of a game, and while having a limited number of tries works for the run and gun exploration part of the game, Rare really wanted to make these bosses nasty without sending you back to the beginning of the level.

And if it's one thing modern games need, it's levels where a dog with a rocket launcher strapped to his back is leaping over rockets fired from two cyborg mantises. You wouldn't expect it but for one shining second (or two hours I guess) Rareware was the master of twitch gameplay.

EDIT: Oh, and I should mention that depending on whether you found Floyd yet or not that these battles are the only time the co-op mode is actually useful and fun. After you find him, Floyd is a little robot buddy who flys a little bit above your shoulder whom a second player can control in a limited fashion. His view is limited to what's on the screen, and his lasers are weak, but he's invincible, he can sometimes hit enemies behind crates or pillars because of his position that the player is safe from and during the boss fights every little bit of damage to the enemy really counts. The only thing I can think of similar to it is the second character playing as Tails in Sonic 2. While it's mainly just a cute feature you use to shut up a younger sibling, it's still very nice to have.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So yeah-- in the late 90s/early 2000s, Rare really understood boss fights, that they flow from but are distinct from the rest of the game play, often of a grander physical scale, that they're something a player might want to come back to.

Here's another Rare game with great bosses, and a particularly notable penultimate boss: Diddy Kong Racing. (I consider this about the best Kart racer ever; solidly so for one player, more arguable for multiplayer, since its eschewing of rubberband play and "help from the item gods" means races between experienced players are decided rather quickly in the first lap. These are also supplemented by a better variety of "battle modes")

Few Kart racers (actually, how many are there? This, the Mario Karts, and Crash Bandicoot entries (which I never got) are what mostly come to mind) bother with bosses, but DKR did them very well. Unlike some other racing games, bosses weren't more-or-less normal racers on a normal course, but special: either filled with obstacles or structurally cool, like the one way hill run of the walrus slide, or the spiraling tower of the dinosaur's challenge.

But that Wizpig race... you might mistake it for the ending battle until you unlock the chibi-Star Wars parody space station... it's menacing. All the bosses 'til then were challenging, usually requiring repeated effort and careful use of the non-random stackable items. Wizpig was in the same mold, but more so.

The race's introduction is stirring, with powerful lightning strikes behind this menacing, laughing monster swine, taunting you with his *basso profundo*, brooklyn-tinged voice. And there was a thing where when you repeated the race...and chances are you would many times...you'd start mashing the start button, and the scene would likely be momentarily frozen exactly on one of the lightning strikes, looking up at this towering menace backlit by the explosive forces of nature.

The race itself, with its stormy weather and driving music was tough, requiring that almost every zipper be precisely hit, and every corner taken tightly. And I for one was a bit creeped out by Wizpig's gliding... usually he'd run, but over gaps he had a little upright flying move just a bit above the ground, a way of traveling that reflects a recurring image in my dreams, where I can go step, step, step, and then glide for a bit, still standing, just not touching the ground. That's the power Wizpig had.

When you finally win, it looks like the end. TickTock says "lets party!" and the characters do so, a sweet and innocent little bit of cavorting and dancing on the beach... but then Wizpig steps out from behind the lighthouse, menaces everyone with his bulk and the lasers of his ship, and promises to see you later, with the focus on the lighthouse being one of the few clues about how to finally bring his reign to an end, in an airplane race that made the last storm drive look like a walk in the park.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the first fight with agahnim in link to the past, the mad dash into hyrule castle's utterly bizarre dungeon tower to get to him before he sacrifices zelda (one of the few times you really feel like you have to HURRY in a videogame even though there's no time limit), the feeling of helplessness as he destroys her (or so i thought) anyway, and the realization that the master sword doesn't do SHIT to him (until you figure out reflecting).

and after you beat him, he drags you into hell.

god i love link to the past.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And don't forget the realization that you can beat him with the net!

I guess that's after you've beaten the game a few times and now you're playing around.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was replaying some fear last night - i have saves with some of the best setpieces in the game - and realized there are several places that have a kind of miniboss format, but rather than just being a special kind of enemy, the game uses larger scale battles to act in a similar way, to punctuate a level. while they do introduce the heavy armor type enemies with a cinematic effect (you go into slow motion mode automatically) at certain points as they're busting through walls or falling through the ceiling, it's more about the battle you're entering with the relatively awesome ai trying to fuck you over. (specifically on the hardest difficulties, which are generally pretty friggin hard.)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeff minter actually talks about this kind of design a lot: boss challenges rather than boss enemies. he feels as though boss enemies are like brick walls: you hit this tough enemy you've never seen before, and the pacing of the game is broken as you scramble to figure out what its weakpoint is, how to hurt it, etc. as an alternative, he advocates more-challenging-than-usual setpieces using elements the player already knows what to do with.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
i was replaying some fear last night - i have saves with some of the best setpieces in the game - and realized there are several places that have a kind of miniboss format, but rather than just being a special kind of enemy, the game uses larger scale battles to act in a similar way, to punctuate a level. while they do introduce the heavy armor type enemies with a cinematic effect (you go into slow motion mode automatically) at certain points as they're busting through walls or falling through the ceiling, it's more about the battle you're entering with the relatively awesome ai trying to fuck you over. (specifically on the hardest difficulties, which are generally pretty friggin hard.)


The original Halo did this a lot, actually, especially in the second half of the game. Those were really the best parts of the game, where you stumbled across massive battles taking place between the Flood and the Covenant and you could join in. One reminder from Dead Rising is that computing power really is needed in order to create impressive mass-events like these (in 3D) and I hope more games pick up on this rather than making everything look really impressive.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:

The original Halo did this a lot, actually, especially in the second half of the game. Those were really the best parts of the game, where you stumbled across massive battles taking place between the Flood and the Covenant and you could join in. One reminder from Dead Rising is that computing power really is needed in order to create impressive mass-events like these (in 3D) and I hope more games pick up on this rather than making everything look really impressive.

Like Stalin said, quantity is its own quality.

Hence the staying power of games like Robotron. (now with dozens of clones in XBLA)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
The original Halo did this a lot, actually, especially in the second half of the game. Those were really the best parts of the game, where you stumbled across massive battles taking place between the Flood and the Covenant and you could join in.


Yeah these were the best moments of any Halo. You started out feeling like just a dude there with a gun and suddenly you are kinda changing the tide of things a little bit. It was the best when both sides were antagonistic towards you, though, as it made you prioritize who was going to be fought when. Halo 2 had a bit of it as well, and I am hopeful for three in this regard, as those particular moments were quite wonderful.

dhex, you make me want to play fear. did you ever get around to trying out Black? It is a fairly primitive game compared to most modern FPS's, but it was really good at setting up boss challenges in specific rooms, where the sheer number of guys and bullets was the challenge, not any individual person, though those shotgun dudes with the masks just to stop your headshots were awesome assholes. Actually the whole game is pretty much getting from one of these huge fights to the next, and making as much blow up as you can.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
dhex, you make me want to play fear. did you ever get around to trying out Black?


1) everyone should play fear.
2) i really enjoyed the cutscenes in black. everything else was not to my liking.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Taking out that Star Destroyer in Rogue Squadron 2: the geek fanboy in me knew it shouldn't be "possible", the pure fanboy in me just didn't care. The sense of scale was astounding, twisting around to make another bombing or strafing run...

While not so much mid-bosses as end bosses, I remember feeling like this in the Battle of Mon Calamari level at the end of the N64 Rogue Squadron, where you have to take on the World Devastators. For one thing, you have to be really fucking geeky to appreciate the mission itself, and even though it's on the blurry ol' N64, the level still manages to bring a shit-eating grin to my face each time I play it. Though I wish it had been remade on Rogue Leader just as the Hoth level was--there's just no comparison between the N64 and Gamecube versions of that.

And as far as mid-bosses go, how about any number of the downright goofy battles from Gunstar Heroes? The two that stick in my mind both occur in Black's Dice Maze: Curry and Rice, and the Minion Soldier. The Curry and Rice battle is not only frustrating for the only time in the game in which you lose your gun and have to fight hand-to-hand against an annoyingly cheap boss, but it's memorable on account of how much Curry and Rice just looks like a blob of poop. And the Minion Soldier battle is just hilarious--that the player can be thrown around the screen by a tiny enemy a quarter his size takes away the sting of getting one's ass kicked by said enemy.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm quite fond of the black robot that comes back later in the game to help you in Hyper Duel but that might not fit the criteria of the thread. M.U.S.H.A. also has a returning black robot but he'd rather hinder you than help you and again it probably doesn't fit with the thread since he's not really difficult to beat.

How about Jaguarandi from Virtual On, it's like three brick walls placed right behind each other. Probably should be thankful that you need to fill a certain condition to meet it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greatsaintlouis wrote:
While not so much mid-bosses as end bosses, I remember feeling like this in the Battle of Mon Calamari level at the end of the N64 Rogue Squadron, where you have to take on the World Devastators. For one thing, you have to be really fucking geeky to appreciate the mission itself, and even though it's on the blurry ol' N64, the level still manages to bring a shit-eating grin to my face each time I play it. Though I wish it had been remade on Rogue Leader just as the Hoth level was--there's just no comparison between the N64 and Gamecube versions of that.

Heh, geeky enough to get it. And also the ship you're flying (heh, thought it was "E-wing" but I guess not... but "V-wing" seems to have been then later grabbed by some of the prequels...)

ObMidBoss: Bangai-O, Saburo. Kind of positioned as a parody or shadow version of the player, and the first to be able to unleash the same devastating waves of homing missiles. You could play this guy by getting up in his grill and hoping that the timing of strike and counterstrikes works in your favor, or you could get him to chase you and try to pick him off more slowly. In any event he was good practice for the final, really f-in unfair boss.

And as always, the silly dialog comes through:
Saburo:
Heh, my name is Riki! I am a pilot from Bangai-o!
Riki:
What! I am Riki! Just say that again!
Saburo:
If you disappear, I will be the real one! The Black Riki!
Riki:
Black Riki? But you're not Black at all.
Saburo:
No, but a part of me is jet black.
Saburo:
Compared with me you are almost snow-white! White! White Riki!
Riki:
Compared with you? What does that mean? Ha?
Mami:
But, if you kill my brother, will there there be anything good?
Saburo:
A new Bangai-o will begin in which I am the boss!
Riki:
After Game Over Won't there be a new game?
Saburo:
Once again, that is true.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Heh, geeky enough to get it. And also the ship you're flying (heh, thought it was "E-wing" but I guess not... but "V-wing" seems to have been then later grabbed by some of the prequels...)

Geek Alert: I have to play the game again, but I'm pretty sure you're flying the V-wing airspeeder in that particular mission. However, the E-wing and V-wing were both introduced in the Dark Empire graphic novel, from which as you know the World Devastator battle was taken.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greatsaintlouis wrote:
kirkjerk wrote:
Heh, geeky enough to get it. And also the ship you're flying (heh, thought it was "E-wing" but I guess not... but "V-wing" seems to have been then later grabbed by some of the prequels...)

Geek Alert: I have to play the game again, but I'm pretty sure you're flying the V-wing airspeeder in that particular mission. However, the E-wing and V-wing were both introduced in the Dark Empire graphic novel, from which as you know the World Devastator battle was taken.

Counter-Geek-Alert:
Right, I guess "V-wings" were the craft with the nifty hover feet looking things, and E-Wings were the ones with the big ol' cannons... but since the graphic novels, "V-wing" now refers to one of those Old Republic craft. Which is too bad, I kind of dig on the post-RotJ stuff more than the prequels.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The game? POW. The midboss? The (Fucking) Helicopter.


SNK built up the anticipation to your showdown with the helicopter by bringing it out a few times, in situations where you couldn't touch it, before finally letting you attack it at the end of the initial prison camp stage. First you hear that unmistakable sound, then it comes by a few times to drop guys for you to fight, and only after a tough slog and ascent of a tall scaffold can you actually strike at it. You feel really good when you take that big ugly bastard down, too.

Also, nobody remembers what the final boss of POW was (actually just a dude, who was really cheap), but everybody remembers the helicopter.


Far Cry for Xbox actually did a similar thing with the helicopter in the earlier, better stages of the game. Homage? Probably not. But yeah.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hell, so did half-life 2.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slonie wrote:
Far Cry for Xbox actually did a similar thing with the helicopter in the earlier, better stages of the game. Homage? Probably not. But yeah.


i don't know, i feel like seemingly "artless" western (ok, french) videogames are trying unsuccessfully to ape nostalgia from late-80s japanese stuff more often than you'd think.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethoscapade wrote:
Slonie wrote:
Far Cry for Xbox actually did a similar thing with the helicopter in the earlier, better stages of the game. Homage? Probably not. But yeah.


i don't know, i feel like seemingly "artless" western (ok, french) videogames are trying unsuccessfully to ape nostalgia from late-80s japanese stuff more often than you'd think.


Crytek is a German company founded by a couple of Turks where the programmers are largely from Eastern Europe (mainly Croatia, from what I've heard).

Or are you referencing Infogrames becoming Atari?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fun fact: noiman cascade was going to be the name of my "character" in the series of online videos that I was going to star in for the Weekly World News. Till they got canceled of course.

Anyhow, hate to be the one that brings it up, but for me, my moment of "OMG, that's genius" is when you have to fight the spirts/ghosts/programs of the Mega Man 2 bosses in Mega Man 3.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a few.

Final Fantasy Tactics had a couple memorable ones (so did Tactics Ogre, but FFT is more mainstream and the encounters in question are more hyped ingame) but the one that really stuck with me was Wiegraf.

In the fight I speak of, you're locked in a room with Wiegraf and chances are he's a thousand times more hard-core than you'll be for quite a while. A common strategy is to have Ramza as a chemist and run like a screaming child while taking pot-shots at him with your gun, or to abuse the water tiles along the wall. Even so it's a difficult fight, because he can usually catch up to you and take you down about ten pegs with his specialty techniques at least once during. Also considering once you finally beat him you get a decent story montage that's less bogged-down with 'zomg the church is evole' than the rest of the game that really cements Wiegraf as a sympathetic villain, it's overall a good scene.

In God of War, the hydra at the very beginning is utterly insignificant to the story but it's your first and best introduction to the "holy shit" aspect to the bossfights of the game. They're painting Kratos as the baddest of the bad, and what better way to introduce that than by pitting him against one of the most difficult creatures in Greek mythos to kill? (especially considering, in crawl terms, he's wielding slashing weapons. Good idea there, Kratos!) I also like this encounter because you have to make good use of antiquated shipping cranes to kill the beast (since they do bashing rather than slashing damage!) and each sequence in which you pulverize a head is satisfyingly brutal. Sort of marks the trend for the entire game, since up to that point you'd been clobbering Minor Flunkies who don't really matter.

I don't know whether to count the Body of the Many in System Shock 2 as a full-fledged boss or miniboss, but I feel it really embodies the early approach to the boss encounter method. The Brain itself is just an object to be destroyed; you disable its three protectors and give it a couple whacks and it's over (though, using the life drain ability bypasses those floating stars altogether). It has no defenses of its own.
Except for the Many. Fighting through legions of psi reavers and rumblers and spiders - normally encountered and dealt with alone or in simple pairs or trios - really throws most or all of the tactics you've been using up til that point completely out the window. In my first solo playthrough, I died here more than a couple times to rumblers coming up behind me and making a messy end of my meager human existence. In a multiplayer playthrough with a friend of mine (who'd never played the game before) I intentionally snuck off and let him deal with the Many so he'd fully conceive of the gravity of our encounter (and then psychically siphoned off the Brain's health and told him to jump in its brain-butthole).
I personally count it more a mini-boss than a true boss, considering when you arrive at the encounter it can be over in about thirty seconds or less. Then again, SHODAN is the same way. (hmm...)

Oh, and every monster den in Crawl. You basically just stumbled onto the orcish or killer bee reading room, and they are very upset at being interrupted. Good luck, hero.
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