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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm ignoring all of this stuff about Man Vs. Themes because it assumes that the games were made with thematic intent. Instead I'll get back to the original question, and that was, "Why does physical combat seem to be the only way for a game to give a player "conflict" in the greater sense of the word?"
I originally went back to your response to my assertions about non-action based genres, but then I realized that you must have forgotten the topic when you responded because nearly all of the genres I mentioned provide "conflict" in the greater sense of the word without the pretense of physical violence.
Basically, we can extend this topic to movies and books and say, "Why do all action books contain guns, fistfights, chase-scenes, and/or blood?" and the answer is, "How does someone fit something into the action genre without including action?"
-Wes
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | IBasically, we can extend this topic to movies and books and say, "Why do all action books contain guns, fistfights, chase-scenes, and/or blood?" and the answer is, "How does someone fit something into the action genre without including action?" |
Not all these genres are action though. That's a silly question and going way too far in the other direction. You can have adventures and mystery without physical combat, yet in most cases not inside videogames.
So then on a flip side, why are 90% of games of the "action" genre? This is not reciprocal in movies books and tv.
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dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
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Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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because gaming involves doing *something* most of the time. otherwise you'd just go read a book, etc.
even a kind of extended interactive fiction like planescape still has combat. otherwise i'd go read pkd or whatever.
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | | because gaming involves doing *something* most of the time. otherwise you'd just go read a book, etc. |
Quoted for reinforcement. Also, because pushing a button, waving an arm, using a stylus, or whatever input method you're using needs to make some sort of verb happen.
Here's a list of verbs I found from looking up "List of Verbs" in Google.
advance
abate
appear
arrive
become
befall
begin
break
burn
cease
change
come
creep
cut
depart
design
disband
drown
emerge
end
enter
escape
expire
fall
flee
fly
freeze
get
go
grow
hang
happen
improve
increase
land
miscarry
mount
overset
part
pass
recover
retire
return
revolt
ride
run
raise
rise
set
settle
sink
sit
speed
spread
steal
step
stop
stumble
surrender
swell
turn
walk
wander
withdraw
wriggle
It's missing a few important ones such as "shoot," but you get the picture. Most of them aren't very interesting. I don't really want to play a game where I can push the A button to stumble and the B button to arrive. There's nothing inherently fun about that, and marketing the "arrive in a stumble" game would be really, really difficult. So designers take the more interesting route. They make games where what happens when you push a button is something that's at least ostensibly fun to do, which in turn leads to a lot of action games.
Of course, the real answer to your question is the same reason there aren't as many PC Adventure games as their once were, and it kind of goes along with my verb point. They're just not very fun.
-Wes
EDIT: See also: Sneak King sucks balls
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Counterpoint, kind of: I would totally play the Arrive in a Stumble game. Starring Cosmo Kramer.
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | I'm ignoring all of this stuff about Man Vs. Themes because it assumes that the games were made with thematic intent. |
No, it doesn't. It's a retrospective argument that looks at what has been made and then catalogs games based not on how developers intended their games to be perceived thematically, but on how different categories have formed and established themselves as working boundaries for game design. It is analagous to Jungian or Freudian analyses of pre-Jung and pre-Freud literature. Part of the point was that these themes or constant ideas existed regardless of their creators' recognition of that existence.
That doesn't keep this exercise from being potentially pointless, though.
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GSL
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 725
Location: Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | Here's a list of verbs I found from looking up "List of Verbs" in Google.
[verbs] |
Man vs. Verbs! |
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dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Part of the point was that these themes or constant ideas existed regardless of their creators' recognition of that existence. |
that's definitely one of the pitfalls of applying 19th century science to 21st century works.
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simplicio
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Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1091
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Greatsaintlouis wrote: | | SuperWes wrote: | Here's a list of verbs I found from looking up "List of Verbs" in Google.
[verbs] |
Man vs. Verbs! |
I think you just came up with my dream custom title. |
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | | Quote: | | Part of the point was that these themes or constant ideas existed regardless of their creators' recognition of that existence. |
that's definitely one of the pitfalls of applying 19th century science to 21st century works. |
For what it's worth, I hadn't been planning to try.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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i should hope not!
is this getting heated yet?
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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hey guys i'm late to the discussion and would probably throw Deus Ex in there somewhere because you can get through the game with only killing about three people in total, and a couple of them you don't even have to shoot to dispose of.
Also, Thief. Some missions require you not to kill anyone. But i guess knocking people on the back of the head counts of violence? I bet I could finish the second without hurting anyone.
so hey guys whats going on in this thread
apart from EXTREME SEXISM.
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dhex
Breeder
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Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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bonus round: which thief game should i try?
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antitype
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I've only played the first one. I'd imagine it's as good a place to start as any, unless the others have rendered it unnecessary.
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simplicio
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| The third, I think. I mean, I haven't played the first two, but I think technical limitations mean more here than they do to the Doom or Quake series, for instance. The level design is really pretty nice too. |
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Ketch
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 420
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | the topic when you responded because nearly all of the genres I mentioned provide "conflict" in the greater sense of the word without the pretense of physical violence.
-Wes |
Or maybe our question should be, what is it that is drawing us to focus our interest on the aforementioned titles (with combat) rather than the non-combat orientated games. Part of it seems to be that non-combat orientated games don't have the same sort of "puzzles" or "excitement". Or story-line. Story seems to be a strong point, because sports games don't have any story that involves the avatar. In fact what is the avatar in a sports game? the nearest player to the ball. So you are kind of playing a team one player at a time. Which is odd. Of course there is an emergent narrative, particularly when you raise the stakes by playing against your friends. Which is where (I think) sports games come into their own. So yeah, sports games aren't as good at providing puzzles (which is a lot of the draw for Zelda etc, well the satisfaction they provide is anyway) or a self-contained story. |
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Nana Komatsu
weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1293
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| Cycle wrote: | | hey guys i'm late to the discussion and would probably throw Deus Ex in there somewhere because you can get through the game with only killing about three people in total, and a couple of them you don't even have to shoot to dispose of. |
Man vs. Hooker Army. |
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: |
is this getting heated yet? |
| me wrote: | I just realised how the word 'heated' seems to imply I want you all to be screeching STFU!!! into your keyboards and falling out over why Treasure are over/underrated.
Actually It's a reference to a British chat show called The Mrs. Merton Show where once per show they'd say 'Let's have a heated debate!' The joke was that because the audience were all over 75, the debate was always rather civil and subdued, and about trivial topics.
So I guess if you're not au fait with that reference, a more accurate thread title would be 'Let's have a nice in-depth discussion about interesting things'. OK thanks. |
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Cycle wrote: | | so hey guys what's going on in this thread |
Harveyjames was bored with us, so he made us come up with things to talk about. Shaper threw some big shit out there, and then had us try to reconstruct a list, complete with examples. Dessgeega joined in but quickly left. Wes dropped the longest list of verbs ever assembled on the Gamer's Quarter forums. I have been marginal at best, as have some others. Oh, and dhex is still using that sweet picture of a squirrel-rider as his avatar.
All caught up now?
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| simplicio wrote: | | The third, I think. I mean, I haven't played the first two, but I think technical limitations mean more here than they do to the Doom or Quake series, for instance. The level design is really pretty nice too. |
How was that one on the Xbox? I bought it for $5 a few years back and it's still in the wrapper.
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-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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dhex
Breeder
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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harvey, i know. just being cute.
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simplicio
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Joined: 03 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | simplicio wrote: | | The third, I think. I mean, I haven't played the first two, but I think technical limitations mean more here than they do to the Doom or Quake series, for instance. The level design is really pretty nice too. |
How was that one on the Xbox? I bought it for $5 a few years back and it's still in the wrapper. |
I don't see why it wouldn't translate well enough. I mean, still better off with the PC version if you can run it. |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I probably could, but I haven't finished any PC game aside from Cave Story in the past... 7 years? Don't know why, probably because of using the PC so much for work, but I can't seriously play PC games.
EDIT: Sorry I finished Myst about a year and a half ago.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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antitype
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Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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And going by the quotation in your signature you at least came pretty close to finishing HL2!
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Nana Komatsu
weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1293
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | | me wrote: | | I just realised how the word 'heated' seems to imply I want you all to be screeching STFU!!! into your keyboards and falling out over why Treasure are over/underrated. |
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You really need to go to select button.
| Harveyjames wrote: | Actually It's a reference to a British chat show called The Mrs. Merton Show where once per show they'd say 'Let's have a heated debate!' The joke was that because the audience were all over 75, the debate was always rather civil and subdued, and about trivial topics.
So I guess if you're not au fait with that reference, a more accurate thread title would be 'Let's have a nice in-depth discussion about interesting things'. OK thanks. |
I really need to upload that video of the debate The Daily Show had between the two british commentators.
| helicopterp wrote: | | Summery summary and stuff |
I like to think I'm not helping the discussion at all! |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| antitype wrote: | | And going by the quotation in your signature you at least came pretty close to finishing HL2! |
Xboxen yo!
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| simplicio wrote: | | The third, I think. I mean, I haven't played the first two, but I think technical limitations mean more here than they do to the Doom or Quake series, for instance. The level design is really pretty nice too. |
The first games actually have aged pretty well, although that may be because they were never really technically impressive even when they were released. Also, the third game is almost ruined by the technical limitations of the xbox, with the stupid levels split in half, which they didn't bother changing for the PC release.
Anyway, the first game has the most interesting story and the most imaginative and atmospheric levels. Some of the levels are pretty crazy and bizzare but there is also too much combat and running from zombies in this game and not really enough stealing.
The second game addressed this and had far better thought out level design with much more thieving, but overall the levels were much less imaginative and fantastical. The story also isn't as interesting but adds as a kind of segway between the first and secomd game, like lots of movie trilogies do. A better game than the first, but not a better experience.
The third game I haven't really played enough of to judge (I plan to remedy that soon), but I understand the story is best if you played the first games before it, especially to truly appreciate the ending.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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dhex: How comfortable are you with first person stealth? If you like the idea, start with Thief II, as it focuses on stealth and thievery whereas the first one has moody action sequences, for fear that the audience wouldn't have liked the concept of a stealth heavy game.
The first one is an extremely taking experience, however, and totally worth it, especially if you're curious about Valve's inspirations for the Half-Life series.
| Marc Laidlaw wrote: | | Thief is the single most terrifying, immersive, and rewarding game I have played and the one single-player game I continue to replay. In addition to the overriding stealth gamestyle, it is loaded with unique elements that hold one in the world. I love the setting, a medieval tech fantasy world that owes less to D&D than to such literary lights as Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance and Michael Shea. It has a spare, but well-crafted storyline, eccentric NPCs, brilliant verse, and unparalleled sound design. Then there are the enormous, intricate levels: Sprawling towns (both populated and ruinous), haunted crypts, bizarre mansions, lost cities, and the finest subterranean sequences in any game the climactic level being a surreal descent that convinced me I had scrambled many miles towards the earth's core. There are countless books I wish I had written; Thief is one of the few games I wish I had worked on. |
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Redeye
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Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 986
Location: filth
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I loved the Thief games, too bad Looking Glass is dead.
One of the Thief makers (Emil Pagliarulo), designed the Dark Brotherhood quests for Oblivion and is now Lead Designer for Fallout 3.
Oh, goody.
"Socialize, get to know the guests... then bathe in their blood!"
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, that got me all excited for those Oblivion quests, and the fact that he was handling stealth in the game (since it sucked so much in Morrowind). I ended up pretty dissapointed.
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antitype
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Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 292
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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dhex, here's a problem I just ran into with Thief 1:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/archive/index.php/t-33846.html
| Quote: | If you're running an nVidia graphics card the latest drivers don't work properly with the Dark Engine. Apparently the 52.16 drivers work, and we know the 44.04 drivers work as well. The 53.03, 53.04, and 55.06 don't work with Thief 1/Gold.
If you aren't running an nVidia card, if you can get into the video options turn off hardware acceleration.
System Shock 2 and Thief 2 will work if you add safe_texture_manager to cam.cfg. |
I hadn't discovered this until just now because the last time I tried to play it I hadn't yet installed a graphics card! So it can still be played, but only at 800x600 and with hardware rendering turned off.
You may just want to go straight for Thief 2 or 3 after all.
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Odd, I just replayed Thief Gold on XP recently. I think I had to mess around with it, maybe download a patch, but I got it working fine with acceleration. I can't remember the resolution though, I'm pretty sure it wasn't 800x600 though.
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Persona-sama
Weltbeherrschen Mangaka
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 709
Location: acrylic polymer dismutation
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Wait, wait...
| Nana Komatsu wrote: |  |
Please explain what this is, Nana. ;_;
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Ha! I was just looking over an old review of mine about Gran Turismo 4:
| me wrote: | | Now, Man versus Percentage is not one of the great narrative struggles, but the developers built a game around it nonetheless. |
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Nana Komatsu wrote: |
You really need to go to select button.
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Select Button has got too many anime guys going d00d CAPCOM d00d
I like it here because everyone gets on and it's not too in-jokey. |
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