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Law Thread

 
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Swimmy
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Joined: 16 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Law Thread Reply with quote

I want a place to complain about the law. I don't really know where else to do it, so I'm hoping folks here have enough of enough interest in such things to contribute their own.

As a general rule in the U.S., a police officer can arrest you and search your property based on probable cause. Usually this requires a combination of factors and is a higher standard than reasonable suspicion. However, it's pretty well established that if officers smell marijuana, that pretty much gives them license to look for it.

So story time: around the beginning of the year, my friends and I went ghost hunting at an abandoned rennaissance faire (which was totally sweet). Unfortunately at the end we got busted (but not charged woo!). A couple kids had their IDs in their backpacks, in the trunk of the car. As soon as the trunk popped open, one of the officers exclaimed, "I smell weed!"

Now, there was no weed in that trunk. That officer did not smell weed. That officer was fucking lying. It's true that he could have searched it without the announcement, us already having been busted for trespassing, but it's still pretty obvious what he was trying to do.

So really now--what in the hell is the point of that rule? A plain sight rule I can understand--an officer can't yell out "I see weed!" and then go searching as s/he pleases. But smell is pretty subjective. If s/he doesn't find anything, hey, it must have been something else. If s/he does find something, your ass is going to jail. Either way s/he's going to say something about the smell of weed. It's just a formality.

What a stupid law.
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Nana Komatsu
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think smell isn't as subjective, not with something like marijuana which has a distinct smell. I know this, because every concert I go to I end up standing two feet away from the guy who's toking up in the crowd.

I mean, you can easily lie and say "I think I see weed!" when it's just a plastic bag full of jars of silly putty".
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BalbanesBeoulve
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the solution is to not do or keep anything illegal in your car.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a pretty good nose for weed, but yeah, the po po will use any excuse to invade your space / search your possessions.



if you havn't already, you may want to watch this.
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Swimmy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, aside from the occasional tresspassing I'm a straight-shooter. I still don't want cops looking through my stuff. "You have nothing to hide so why worry?" is bullshit. I mean if we've already established that the people doing it are blatant liars. . .
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Nana Komatsu
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Who wouldn't trust the nose of a trained law enforcer?
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Swimmy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
if you havn't already, you may want to watch this.

I have. The house party segment is especially depressing, because the narrator reminds us that even though the girl denied entry, the one cop still mentioned smelling something funny, so they basically have free license. It's a hollow formality.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dess beat me to posting the vid. my work here is done!

those hollow formalities can help later in court.

hey, if you want to be really fucking depressed, check this shit out:

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/027260.php#027260

bookends nicely with the other stories following the johnson piece, where a 90 year old woman was toasted by a swat team serving a warrant at the wrong address. you can see the story unravel as it becomes more and more clear that the informant was lying and was told to lie by cops after the fact as well. etc.

radley balko's become a one man anti-no-knock-raid crew. his intervention in the cory mayes trial may have saved that guy's life. the next time people tell you libertarians are heartless, tell them to eat a dick for satan and check this motherfucker out.

oh, anyway, nyc's gun laws are fucking dumb. did you know howard stern has a concealed carry permit? how fucked is that?
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GcDiaz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Law Thread Reply with quote

Swimmy wrote:


So story time: around the beginning of the year, my friends and I went ghost hunting at an abandoned rennaissance faire (which was totally sweet). Unfortunately at the end we got busted (but not charged woo!). A couple kids had their IDs in their backpacks, in the trunk of the car. As soon as the trunk popped open, one of the officers exclaimed, "I smell weed!"


Hi, everybody. Devil's Advocate here.

So technically, you were trespassing? Abandoned or not, the property isn't public, and you were there without permission. Was that cop with the bloodhound nose full of it? Absolutely. But as far as he and his partners were concerned, you were all just a bunch of meddling troublemaking kids. No harm in arranging for a search that could very likely (again, from their POV) yield some illegal substances. In short, by being there and getting caught, you gave them an excuse. Know your enemy.

EDIT: dhex, Don Imus has a concealed carry permit too. Maybe someday he and Stern (they do still HATE each other, no?) can stage a face-off right on Times Square. Winner takes all.

EDIT part deux: My only run-ins with the Po, in all of my 27 years, have been from speeding. All the time I lived in NYC I never had to deal with them, even during the Giuliani/Bratton Street Crimes Unit years. Luck must've been on my side.
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sawtooth
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eh, trespassing.

a cop on the island where some of my cousins live planted weed in a car once. Same cop stalked one of my older sisters, too.
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showka
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just here to throw my support for tresspassing in abandoned places. Its fun and exciting. It's like playing an adventure video game in REAL LIFE! (fuck having to drive to hell and gone to go walking at some park or amist nature) That said, it's illigeal, and I support it being illigeal because it helps prosecute people who've gone were they shouldn't to do bad things. But I still feel for you Swimmy just not in any official sense because I wouldn't be able to justify it. I think the cop was a dick since he probably knew you guys weren't doing anything wrong, or maybe he wanted to send you and your buddies to anal rape land on a social technicality because you'd made him waste his time, or you hadn't but he was bored and mean.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guess he had to fill his quota.
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Lackey
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If urban exploration is a real life adventure game than you have to consider the police part of that... Don't get caught!
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GcDiaz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lackey wrote:
If urban exploration is a real life adventure game than you have to consider the police part of that... Don't get caught!


Back in the day we had this BIG 5 story building (167th and Walton in the Bx), totally abandoned, and populated by crackheads. Every Halloween we'd make the trek to the 5th floor, this apartment with a corner view. From up there, we'd start lobbying eggs at anything and anyone down below. No one ever tried to come up after us, mostly because they didn't know who they'd run into, nor the layout of the place (we had it mapped). Of course it was always hairy when we tried to come out, since they could easily be waiting for us, but they never did. Never ran into any cops either, but they had better things to do. That place is now a section 8 building with an elementary school in its backyard.
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showka
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GcDiaz wrote:
Lackey wrote:
If urban exploration is a real life adventure game than you have to consider the police part of that... Don't get caught!


Back in the day we had this BIG 5 story building (167th and Walton in the Bx), totally abandoned, and populated by crackheads. Every Halloween we'd make the trek to the 5th floor, this apartment with a corner view. From up there, we'd start lobbying eggs at anything and anyone down below. No one ever tried to come up after us, mostly because they didn't know who they'd run into, nor the layout of the place (we had it mapped). Of course it was always hairy when we tried to come out, since they could easily be waiting for us, but they never did. Never ran into any cops either, but they had better things to do. That place is now a section 8 building with an elementary school in its backyard.


That was mean to pick on crack heads and you're a bad man. But I think its an interesting story.

I'm 23 and a few months back went walking down these train tracks with a few of my buddies, as we had oft done in days of yore. The train tracks run by a creek and some drainage ditches. Right before one of the ditches, we stumbled onto a hobo outpost. There was furniture (a couch and a few lawn chairs), a tarp to provide shelter, and three shopping carts full of cans. It was awesome.

The next day we went back, only this time the hobbies were actually there. It probably made for better memories but it was kind of awkward having to walk by them at the time. I mean they were on hobo vacation or something, and just chillin' at home. I'd be pretty pissed if some one just walked through my house when I was watching TV at home or something.

We just walked forward. I was lead man but just started whistling as soon as I spotted them and looked straight ahead. My friend got a better look at them and said they looked more scared of us than we were of them. Personally, I don't think that was possible because I kept expecting them to start throwing shit at us or give chase like the crazy cat lady on the Simpsons and was grateful that they didn't.
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internisus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nana, your avatar works well itt. Might I call upon Judge Ito to make an appearance?
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GcDiaz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

showka wrote:

That was mean to pick on crack heads and you're a bad man. But I think its an interesting story.


Oh we never messed with the crackheads. We were throwing eggs at the people and cars on the street below.
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Swimmy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where the general and videogame boards meet! Here's Judge Richard Posner giving an interview in Second Life.

Seriously.
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FortNinety
Pheonix Wright
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
did you know howard stern has a concealed carry permit? how fucked is that?


Hey, he's the king of all media.

Not go off topic, but, and perhaps you might lose some respect for me dhex, but I actually listen to Howard Stern and consider myself a closet fan. I know he gets on people's nerves, and can understand why people hate him, but its those same qualities that makes me like him. I'm convince that most of my friends would love the guy if they gave him a fair shake. Not that bullet points is the best method to validate someone, but he's extremely vocal against the war inb Iraq, is an ardent animal rights activist, is sincerely for gay rights, and also an environmentalist.

Sorry, but I just had an argument literally five minutes ago about the guy...

Anyway, cops. The NYPD are a popular target among certain circles I swing with, mostly artists, so needless to say, most folks I know think they are scum. But cops are like people; some are awesome and some are pieces of shit. I'm happy to say that the pair of detectives I know are some of the best human beings walking on earth, so put their lives on the line everyday for you and me. And they more than anyone else are sick to their stomachs when they hear about cops abusing the system, and the bullshit laws that are in place to allow them to do so.

Oh, and they fucking hate traffic cops with a passion, and so do I nowadays. Perhaps other car driving NYCers can back this up, but there's been a lot of bullshitting ticketing going on these days. My gf was a victim last week, and even though she has an open and shut case for her, the fact she has to contest a bullshit $115 ticket is just a waste of her time and the system.

Also, it really says something that there's a law that says that if you assult a MTA worker, its 7 years in jail. They basically have more rights and more protection than school teachers, which are, you know, people that actually contribute to society. But more to the point, everyone wants to fucking punch out every subway worker they see (and I fall pretty dead center in that camp), and instead of addressing the cause, you again have stupid laws. My example might seem rather poor and trite, but trust me, live in the Big Apple and deal with the trains on a daily basis for a while and you'll know what I mean.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
NYC parking cops


Yes. Yes and yes and yes.

Actually, I've kinda got the worst of NYC cops near my work. All the FBI offices and detainment that used to be in the WTC got moved above the immigration offices at W. Houston and Varick, so if you're about to be shipped off to Guantanamo you'll be doing it through there. Suffice to say, I've seen guys walking down the sidewalk get stopped by cops and asked for papers, pretty much just for being latino. Multiple times.
And the parking cops there aren't any better.

I'll be spending tomorrow on John St., contesting a parking ticket given to me during alternate side parking while I was sitting in the driver's seat like everyone else that had reparked (which was the whole block- we all got them).

I think it helps to stop thinking of them as serving and protecting and start thinking of them as major revenue sources for the city. I mean, they make back their day's pay in what, 25 seconds?
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dhex
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iirc - and feel free to correct me - the mta felonious assault thing came up as part of a negotiation thing in the contract previous to this one. i don't have any data in front of me in terms of mta assaults, but i've never really had much of a problem with individual workers. i know all the dudes who work nights in my station, everyone's chill even when drunk old fucks are being stupid.

mta officials on the other hand, well, ass cancer for everyone.
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