The Gamer's Quarter

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

If anyone knows me all I have been saying about the PS3 is that it all feels like a lie. Well it looks like I am not alone in feeling this way.

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

Yeah dude, Kojima clearly says that the PS3 "all feels like a lie".
Finally, you're not alone in feeling this way!

Not. And you are still alone in feeling that way.

The PS3 is clearly the most powerful (and simultaneously the most challenging) next-gen system. You can find confirmation of this fact from Itagaki, Kojima, Hino, Naka, Shibusawa--on and on--and this doesn't even touch western developer comments.

Xbox 360: Ultra-powerful, easier to program and ideal for current design.
PS3: Ultra-powerful, exotic, difficult to program; future-proof architecture.

Please apply technical research to your angst, to temper your opinion. Try to be more objective.

And please don't misquote or misconstrue (then project) someone as intelligent as Hideo Kojima to leverage your angst. Especially by linking to an article that provides absolutely zero credibility bolstering for your already fragile point. You have people click to a Games Industry article link where, if read thoroughly, one discovers Kojima is saying nothing even remotely similar to absolute disbelief. He is inferring that developers will have a lot to live up to after the shock value of those specially crafted and optimized real-time E3 demos. That does not imply he thinks, "it all feels like a lie". Besides, as the respected leader of a company, he would never be so callous as to say such things publicly. Perhaps you could learn from him.

Thanks.

-DL

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

In saying that it feels like a lie I get backed up by the fact that all videos shown at E3 were pre-rendered for the PS3. Sony also has a history of removing features from their systems when they come close to releases.

But yes, even many people I know don't agree with me on this topic. I must just be jaded.

aderack · . Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco

The Revolution is the only system of the three that shows any promise. It's also promised to be weaker than the other two. Right from the outset.

Different mode of thinking. We're past the stockpiling. It does no one any good. It's time to focus on what we're actually doing with the power we have.

And yes, Sony does have a history of outright lying about hardware. No reason to expect they've suddenly gone straight today.
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TOLLMASTER · nippon ichi PR man Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 187

When I was a kid, I remember seeing Samuari Shodown on the 3DO for the first time. I remember the first match I saw exactly, because an element I never had expected possible was present: the screen moved in and out. I stood there, staring at the TV screen, shattered. It felt like something reached out of the TV and physically shook me and my world, as I first saw something totally unexpected for the first time.

I had a similar feeling when I first turned on my Gamecube, and played Pikmin. The sheer mass of Pikmin you could have on one screen was, for me, amazing. I had seen Playstation 2 graphics before in the form of Kingdom Hearts, and had not been too amazed, but Pikmin did something that I didn't even concieve of.

I used to think like you guys. I saw the next generation of consoles as pointless endeavors. After all, not much had changed from the PSX to the PS2, and I do not expect much from the PS2 to the PS3. But I have some sort of belief--call it a gut feeling--that we're about to approach some magical limit, somewhere, sometime. Some genius is going to go, "with this much power, we can do x!" and it will rock my world even more thoroughly than a sliding camera once did.

I want to be scared of technology. I want to be afraid again that the next jump would make humanity obsolete. I want proof that these new game machines can do more than display pretty frilly graphics. And I get the feeling, ladies and gentlemen, that we may be getting it soon.

Besides, even if the next generation of games goes to hell, we still have Nippon Ichi.

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

Do you think IBM and Toshiba are "lying" about the Cell? Scheming with Sony to deceive millions of potential buyers? No. The Cell is a bitch to program and a pariah in development circles to all but the most curious (and resourceful) elite. For now. The PS3 architecture, despite having the most long term potential, is very much the underdog in terms of desirability. Leading us to...

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

How about you let us in on what's so amazing about the PS3 architecture that's going to completely revolutionize games or whatever, as you seem to suggest?

ajutla · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject:

nICO · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 120 Location: WVUSA

ajutla · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject:

aderack · . Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco

This guy is fun, isn't he.
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nICO · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 120 Location: WVUSA

But seriously, disneyland, it's not that people are saying there'll be no good games coming out for the next consoles. There certainly will be.

The problem is that, well, is it really necessary to upgrade so soon? Will increasing the processing power of the hardware really bring that much of an improvement over the gameplay experiences that the Xbox or GCN can do now?

The Xbox 360 and PS3, for gaming purposes, appear to be nothing more than a conservative upgrade of the Xbox and PS2. What Aderack is saying is that the Revolution is the only console that is even attempting to possibly open up possibilities for new gameplay experiences with whatever this mystery controller is. Sure, we don't know exactly what it is yet, and it could turn out to be a dissapointment, but at least it'll be something new. There'll (hopefully) be a reason to upgrade besides to see better looking and bouncing DoA girls and shinier GT cars.

(At least) $300.00 is a lot of money for most people to spend on a single game console, and many people are skeptical that it'll be worth it this time.

I personally have been taking a middle ground about the new consoles. I do think that the next generation will turn out okay, even if it is coming two years too early this time. I didn't find the -prerendered- PS3 demos to be that impressive graphically, all things considered, and I find the Xbox 360 to be even less so. Honestly, Halo 2 and RE 4 look as good as most of the demos to me.

However. I think (well, hope at least) that once we see the possibilities for immersion that games like Elder Scrolls 4 allow with their attention to a level of detail that simply wouldn't have been possible before, that it'll almost justify the transition. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for the Revolution to follow through on its hype, and if it appears to, I'll even be excited about upgrading. The PS3 and Xbox 360, though...I'm taking a wait and see approach.

The next, next generation of consoles is the transition I'm worried about, since despite my occasional anxiety, there really will be possiblitity for growth strictly on the basis of computing power for the next couple years. But it appears that in the following generation a technical wall is likely to be hit for practical purposes and the non-specialist eye. And no amount of stacked $ell processors will be able to break that.

This post can be summed up in one sentence. I'm not too excited about the PS3 or Xbox 360 and I'm holding out hope for the Revolution.
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Brauner: Damn you, humans... You selfishly start wars and despoil the earth. Perhaps justice wasn't on my side but I will never admit that it was on yours.

Mister Toups · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject:

I am posting to reiterate the internet's need for an emoticon that represents slapping yourself in the forehead and quietly muttering.

I'm going to play Touch! Kirby on my new DS and go to bed.
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where were you when nana komatsu got a wii?

ajutla · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject:

%*/!(-?
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disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

ajutla · Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject:

YOU SPELLED SUPERSEDE WRONG.

MAYBE.
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aderack · . Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco

Wow. It's an American!
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

disneyland... really, all I care about is that MGS4 will more than likely take money out of my bank account and put it into Sony's. Seriously. I really think that features are going to be dropped and many developers are going to be nervous about developing for the PS3 using old tried and true games to get in there with. Yes, MGS4 will sell it to me. But it is a game that has had many predecessors to it and is nothing really "fresh." If the Revolution really is going to make it so that independent developers are going to be able to develop for the system I think it will bring in the most for video games creatively. Also, I am almost positive that the stat list that Sony released for the PS3 will be changed for actual release. I don't think a Sony video game system yet has been released that has kept the same stat sheet from initial release to final release.

Also. TOLLMASTER! You got the internet? Nice.

EDIT: Toups got a DS, nice as well.

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

JasonMoses · . Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 407

I'm pretty confident that disneyland is leading you guys on.

aderack · . Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco

Yeah, I found that kind of gorgeous.

I think I like this guy.
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Mister Toups · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:35 am Post subject:

I keep mistaking the -DL for "LOL". I guess my mind is trying to find some indication that it's all a big joke.
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where were you when nana komatsu got a wii?

ApM · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:55 am Post subject:

Disneyland, you simultaneously seem to know a lot of raw hardware data and very little about how it actually translates into software.

If you honestly think loading screens are a limitation of the current hardware's fucking processor speed, A) you've clearly never touched a Gamecube, B) you're ignoring the fact that reading from optical media is the bottleneck here, and C) you're ignoring the fact that next-gen hi-definition games will need to load exponentially more polygons from the disc anyway to fill all of those extra pixels.

As for the comment that the Cell processor will somehow spur innovation due to being a pain in the ass to code for, look at how well that worked for the PS2. We are LONG past the point of taking advantage of quirky hardware to pull off strange tricks.

The designers whose visions are limited by technology are that way because they care too damn much about it.

Mister Toups · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:58 am Post subject:

ApM · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:20 am Post subject:

I find it far more fruitful to focus on what actually works, rather than what's dysfunctional.

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

ApM · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:31 am Post subject:

I mean internally quirky. Amiga copper effects and shit.

Skunk! · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6

dessgeega · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:03 am Post subject:

dhex · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:15 am Post subject:

the next generation?
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Skunk! · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6

Mods please change disneyland's name to Cassandra.

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

In response to ApM's B):

SuperWes · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject:

I'm really confused as to how a programmer's ability to do new things will spur a designer's ability to come up with innovative new game ideas. I'm also confused as to how Ninja Gaiden 2, Gotham 3, Halo 3, Tekken 5, God of War 2, Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo 5, Super Smash Bros., Metroid Prime R, Zelda, and Super Mario Revolution are proof that developers can do innovative new things with these new systems when every single one of them is a sequel that's presumably based on an existing design.

-Wes
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disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

SuperWes · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject:

Don't get me wrong, I think it's about time for new systems, I just think that the way you've been talking about these new systems makes you sound like... well, like you actually believe that having a couple more polygons in Law's jacket will somehow inherently make Tekken 6 a better game than its predecessor, and that having the jaggys taken out of the next Gran Turismo will somehow make the game more worth our time as gamers. If that's what you're saying, defending your point against this crowd is pretty pointless.

-Wes
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dhex · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject:

we are fanatics, by and large.

how's this for some wisdom:

a poor game tests patience
an average game frustrates
a good game breaks your will
a great game seems so close to your will that you don’t notice it breaking in the first place
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disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

If there's power for more beautiful backgrounds and gorgeous character models, and more motion-captured moves with zero clipping of arms, legs and clothing during animations -- all with the same competence of gameplay as the predecessor...yeah, the new Tekken becomes a better game.

If the vehicles and physics and tracks are stupendously detailed, free of artifacts, finally capturing (and thus rewarding) the untold hours of research conducted by the Digital Polyphony team, while preserving the standard-setting precision of gameplay...then sure, the developers will have made the next Gran Turismo a great experience for fans.

I don't think I need to defend facts.

If all the special effects, the huge symphonic score, massive sets and enormous location cinematography were removed from the Lord of the Rings films, yet the actors and story remained, would it still be the same epic? Or did the effects and soundtrack, sets and vistas, somehow inherently make it a better trilogy?

You have eyes and ears to go with your reflexes and emotions. There's nothing wrong with appreciating games as an art form driven by technology. Your interaction with the experience goes beyond manipulating objects and avatars.

JasonMoses · . Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 407

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

Wonderfully ironic that you linked to the box set plastered with photo assets from the films, simultaneously missing the point and reinforcing the point (artistic visualization). Thanks.

- Cassandra

aderack · . Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco

What a strange person you are. Why are you here?
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Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

This is a fun argument and all, but it still says nothing about what developers will actually do with all this extra power. You ask me, I'd say it looks like they're just getting ready to make prettier versions of the games we have right now. disneyland, you yourself listed a ton of sequels earlier in this thread as some sort of justification. To me, me being the average consumer and not a tech head, it looks like it'll simply be more of the same. Where are these amazing revolutionary new experiences you're promising? Yeah, I can see the potential and all, but in a day and age when developers would rather play it safe than try out new ideas it doesn't look very likely that they will be able to.

I'm tired of seeing so many established genres, I want something new. I want games built around fresh concepts that haven't really been explored before, like games that follow the players actions and adjust their stories and environments accordingly, not the same old take on the same old theme. I'm fucking sick of seeing so many war games. There's more aspects of war that could be explored in a game other than commanding an elite squad of soldiers into enemy territory and blowing shit up. I'm tired of seeing the racing genre, or the stealth genre, or the 3D action platform genre. If these new consoles are so damned impressive then give me some new genres to play with.

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

dessgeega · Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject:

disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

aderack · . Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco

You do know there's no such thing as objectivity? I mean. It doesn't exist.
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disneyland · . Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei

Hence the recommendation.

aderack · . Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: San Francisco

OK!

...

Nintendo Ice Hockey is a pretty good game. Got character to it.
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nICO · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 120 Location: WVUSA

I prefer NHL 94 too.

And I like this disneyland guy. Most people would have just said screw you guys and never bothered to show up to the site again. That would have been easiest.

It seems like he's in with the wrong crowd, but what fun is conversation if everyone agrees? He's been arguing his points cooly, rationally, and knowledgably despite being harassed, and even if I don't necessarily agree, at least people have a reason to talk. It's not like he's just going pS3 RaWkkkksSSS! or some crap.
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Brauner: Damn you, humans... You selfishly start wars and despoil the earth. Perhaps justice wasn't on my side but I will never admit that it was on yours.

dark steve · . Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110

The man has something of a point. More power doesn't necessarily help a playing experience, but who here would disagree that the feel of Ocarina of Time could be improved by increasing the draw distance? Or Perfect Dark's biggest gameplay flaw is it's framerate?

For that matter, who's seen the screenshots of the PS2 RE4? Look how easily a visually striking game becomes a muddy, bland looking one. The gameplay may (we'll see) remain intact, but which do you prefer?

The big objection to the new hardware, which doesn't get raised nearly enough, is "Is the upsurge in development cost going to fucking cripple an already conservative industry until it's as bland and lifeless as american studio filmmaking?" More power is only a boon if the developers have the tools, literal and figurative, to utilize it.

PS: Keep hockey in the mutant leagues where it belongs.