The Gamer's Quarter

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2006/060610_mfe_July_06_Klosterman.html

Kotaku.com got all whiny and defensive about it, but Klosterman is right. He's not saying that literally no one is writing true, insightful video game criticism, but that there aren't any big critics whose voices make a difference. Most of the game media IS consumer information.

... and I expect all of you to AGREE!

Now, agree.
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GSL · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:33 am Post subject:

But... isn't that what we try to do HERE? The whole "explaining what playing a given game feels like" and "analyzing what specific games mean in any context outside the game itself" thing he's whining about?

Szczepaniak · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 770

His column was shit. Not because of what he said about "game critics", that secton wasn't even processed by my brain. And the reason is this:

Everything else he said was so diabolically stupid, as was everything said by the people he spoke, that frankly, I didn't even pay attention to his main point.

I've never heard of him before, but he, and those he spoke to, have no basic understanding of videogames. This makes any kind of serious point they're to put across, null and void.

I can say this as fact, because I'm paid to know my gaming history.

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

But Szczep, that was twenty some years ago. In most games today the story is an afterthought.

Haven't read the link myself. Might do that now.

edit-Okay, skimmed it. The guy says there aren't really an critics for videogames, and he's mostly right. Kotaku gets its panties in a bunch saying there are critics for videogames as he's describing, just that he wouldn't know about them because he hasn't read any of it.

Which is about the whole deal, right there. And he hasn't read any of it because none of the so called videogame criticism has a face in the mainstream media. It's all still independent underground type stuff. Maybe we should all start applying at Esquire to write about videogames, instead of just making our own magazines?

I'm kind of tempted to do that now, actually.

dessgeega · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:45 am Post subject:

Szczepaniak · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 770

I... don't know?

He just comes across as overly intellectual. Like on TV, when people talk about art and the Turner Art prize, or whatever it is. That's not art. I studied art, and I hate the way people feel the need over-complicate stuff.

As if, somehow, without doing that, they can't enjoy it.

Tablesaw · . Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 303 Location: LACAUSA

I think I'm going to order Klosterman a copy of TGQ when I get home. Wes, will you promise to send it out quickly?

Edit: The order is made! Send it with a note saying, "From the minor critics."
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david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

seryogin · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:05 am Post subject:

I'm surprised that now one has bothered to mention that Klosterman is probably one of the worst writers to emerge in the last few years.

Here's a link that should prove that he should never be listerned to about anything:

http://www.nypress.com/print.cfm?content_id=8768
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david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

I admit I hadn't heard of Klosterman before. But what difference does the rest of his work make to this particular piece? Dhex, where are you? What's that called, when you dismiss an argument by more broadly discrediting the author?

I also admit I didn't make it past the first few paragraphs of that essay you linked to. Ames spent more time comparing Klosterman's face to an asshole than explaining what's so offensive about his work, and I lost interest.
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Szczepaniak · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 770

Cool, another guy besides me thinks he's an idiot.

Anyway, David, in response to your responses to my first post. Yeah, my argument in criticising him was rough, and poorly thought out, and if I really tried, I could do a better job. But you're new here. So I'll level with you. I just like complaining about stuff, all the time. Everything in fact. Constantly. And Klosterman is the latest guy on my shit list. I'll moan, and throw cheap potshot insults at him, for a day or so. Then I'll get really drunk, forget about it, and move on to whoever or whatever else has ignited my rage, at that particular moment. So don't feel that my rants need to be engaged, it's more a case of ignore and tolerate them. Though you can engage them, if you like. I mean, I don't mind either way. I'm just a guy who complains about everything.

Having said all that though, Klosterman, as well as each and every single other person he spoke with in that column, are all fucking inept idiots, with utterly no true comprehension of videogames. They're like those people who find something, which they think might be cool, and then they jump on it and ride the wave. Or the bandwagon. Or the whiskey train. I don't know. Whatever, man.

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

GSL · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject:

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

I'm not viewing him as a voice of authority, rather a voice that can bring much needed attention to our own by raising the general awareness of these issues. He's got credential and people listen to someone who has credential. That's what matters here. Simpe as that.

ApM · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject:

david · . Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 170 Location: b, md

I agree with pretty much everything Mr. Mechanical has said.

And whoa, I'm not putting down TGQ, for God's sake. Hey, I had an article in the last issue, and drew the cover. And I was at E3 and hung out with Toups and Matt and everybody. I'm speaking as one of the group. But it doesn't offend me if someone doesn't consider TGQ in a survey of major trends in game journalism. Naturally the big publications that everyone is aware of are going to figure more prominently.

I do this comic, right? Yeah, some people know of it, I take pride in it, but it's not a major force in the world of comics. If a mainstream critic remarked that today's comics show a surprising lack of experimentation in page layout (something I focus on), I wouldn't fume and get indignant because the guy didn't mention me, or doesn't even know about me. No -- I'd probably think, "maybe he'd be interested in my stuff."

So please, this is not a difference of loyalty to TGQ. But it makes sense that the conversation would twist that way, since much of the negativity towards Klosterman's article seems rooted in a kind of defensive group mentality. People don't like what he represents, where he's coming from, that he's not a true gamer or something. That's the kind of group behavior I hate. It's fun to have clubs and so forth, but all this insider/outsider venom is unfortunate.

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

I get the feeling that Klosterman wouldn't have written this if he'd stumbled across Rogers.

That's not a value judgement of either individual in any particular direction, it just seems like that's the kind of thing that he's looking for and not seeing.

ryan · . Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

And TGQ is the only print magazine that really comes close to what he's talking about. I guess you could consider Edge to be somewhat-in-the-ballpark; however, they've made enough crappy editorial decisions that the reviews are uniformly always the worst thing in the magazine.

seryogin · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject:

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

Sergei, that article is awesome. And it sums up Klosterman pretty well.

(This doesn't mean that the basic premise of his article (that the gaming press sucks anus) isn't true, just that he got to it 2 years late.)

(Also, I'm wearing one of those Atari-logo shirts right now and when I do, I'm always afraid that Fort90 will appear out of nowhere and club me senseless.)

dhex · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject:

i've said it before, and i'll have to stencil it on a shirt now: chuck klosterman is a bottle of puke.

david: the term for the rhetorical error in question - like the above - is "the association fallacy" or even "poisoning the well."

however, we should still send that bottle of puke a copy of the issue. and send the magazine a letter and a copy of the last issue of the mag. expressing very polite interest in hearing the argument of our publication amplified in a major mainstream magazine. etc. david's response is not only reasonable, it is correct.

and then he should suck our collective fucking taint and die.
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ryan · . Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999

someone isn't being unhip enough to be hip.
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dessgeega · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:41 am Post subject:

GSL · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:26 am Post subject:

I really couldn't get 'sassy' out of Klosterman's pose. I get more of an 'erstwhile nerd-chic that tries too hard to be anything other than unfortunate' vibe. Not that there's anything terribly wrong with those thick-framed black glasses that seem to be all the rage these days, but for god's sake man, at least a size that fits your massive noggin!

I believe some of that may be the rum talking, but we all know rum speaks the truth.

And I meant my reply to be neither a "quick, the colony is under attack, defend ourselves!"-sort of group defense nor a "well, you didn't notice me so obviously you suck!" reaction. It was more of a... how to put this? Given his pedigree, I don't feel he is qualified to ask the question he did in the manner he did, and is merely riding his fame as an arguably poor 'pop culture critic' to try and be one of the first ones to stamp his name on a media frontier as of yet relatively unsoiled by critics of his ilk. It comes back to this: yes, maybe there is a lack of critical discourse and theory for videogames, especially considering the expansiveness of the medium as a whole. But I don't need to hear this from Chuck fucking Klosterman. The guy has no ties to the videogaming world whatsoever, and his coming off as an insightful pundit identifying a new frontier is just bullshit posturing of the most masturbatory, self-inflating sense.

I mean, Bad Day LA! Not even out yet, dammit! I'm supposed to take someone like this seriously?

Alc · . Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 109 Location: UK

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Ketch · . Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420

quote:

"That, I think, is where video-game criticism should be going: toward the significance of potentiality. Video games provide an opportunity to write about the cultural consequence of free will, a concept that has as much to do with the audience as it does with the art form. However, I can't see how such an evolution could happen, mostly because there's no one to develop into these "potentiality critics." Video-game criticism can't evolve because video-game criticism can't get started. "

Yes, free will vs. destiny, would be an interesting thing to look at more, for example in Shadow of the Colossus where played "right" it will always end the same way because there is little else in the way of game there. Likewise, in GTA where the main way to progress is to follow the story missions you can't just carve out an existence.

Likewise, it would be good to see some analyses of games which have multiple endings/middles depending on how you play and your choices at key moments. (Deus Ex? Fallout?). in fact it may be not so much a question of endings but of middles, ie. how playing as a slaver in Fallout 2 is different to playing as a Scientist/talker character. Why should you have to put all meaning in the end of a game?

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Legacy of Kain, the Soul Reaver storyline more accurately, dealt with those themes quite competently, even though there was little in the ways of alternate paths.
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Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

Lackey · . Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada

Didn't he just say the characters were nicely animated or something anyway?

EDIT:

nICO · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 120 Location: WVUSA

I think I'm siding with Mech here. I mean, it's not like this should become required reading or even that he says anything really insightful. It just...seems pretty harmless, you know? It might even be good all things considered. This guy isn't trying to pull an Ebert by saying there's little point to games, he's trying to inspire people to take games seriously. And I don't see how that can be a bad thing, even given his odd (okay, kinda dumb) way of going about it.

Oh hell. When it comes down to it, I can't disagree with Greatsaintlouis:

Szczepaniak · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 770

dessgeega · Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:42 am Post subject:

the gamer's quarter
the mainstream are lepers.
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Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

Szczepaniak · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 770

Hey, insular xenophobia worked for the island nation of Japan for centuries. Don't knock it until you're tried it, man.

As for the whole mainstream argument. What about David Sheff? That guy was a godamned genius. And years before people like Steven Poole et al tried to write proper books about games and failed.

(Steven L Kent by the way, comes a close second to Mr Sheff, in terms of "getting it", and explaining it well for the mainstream. His writing is great.).

Sheff wrote features for mainstream mags like Playboy, and did a whole bunch of high profile interviews with people. His book Game Over, I am shocked never encouraged other people to write intelligently about games.

He came across as understanding videogames as better than any other non-gaming mainstream writer, I think, mainly, because he didn't try to put some kind of fancy twist on things. He didn't waffle on about how Mario was popular because of "hypereal movement". I mean, seriously, what the fuck does hypereal movement even mean?! Not just to the mainstream, but to anyone.

I would cite Game Over as the first mainstream book that did everything right. It was perfect.

Steven L Kent's "Ultimate History of Videogames" is another great book.

Chuck... Well, old Chuck makes me want to cut my eyes out.

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

I always thought Poole should have been the breakout guy.

Oddly enough, it seems like the same things that held him back are the same reasons that Szczepaniak doesn't like Klosterman, which goes to show how important it is that you be perceived as "one of us" or not.

As for hyperreal, I actually have read a fair amount about it, mainly about hyperreal architecture, and it's pretty interesting (the main examples of this being amusement parks and Vegas). The basic idea when applied generally, if I can be allowed to murder it completely, is that you are attempting to create the illusion of something much greater or more complex than what is actually there by over-exagerrating. Or to put it another way, it's an attempt to make something "more real than real".

So, in that sense, the animation GTA is hyperreal because no human being actually runs like the main character does. I actually think that looking at hyperreal architecture and city planning would be more fruitful when looking at a game like GTA; as we've already covered, it's unlikely that Klosterman would be interested in something that actually involved analysis.

Lockeownzj00 · . Joined: 16 Aug 2005 Posts: 214

SuperWes · Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject:

dhex · Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:22 am Post subject:

john, games haven't been underground since before 1977. really. or else none of us would be having this conversation.

i don't like klosterman - he's holden caufield, but "cooler" - but shapes and wes need to send copies of tgq to esquire with a letter about the piece. really. like, right now!
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SuperWes · Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:25 am Post subject:

dhex · Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:39 am Post subject:

http://www.esquire.com/talk/

i mean, just write hey d00d there are people out there doing this thing, and here's one way he can catch up to what's actually going on with video game criticism. you know, address teh points and stuff. keep it very brief, no more than 300 words, and send in a few copies of the latest to boot to their offices. if nothing else, it'll get tossed to some intern who is part of the condenasty empire, and maybe the dorkwad tastemaker thing will work out once in a while.

scribner: (they published his last two books)

Chuck Klosterman
c/o
Simon & Schuster, Inc.
1230 Avenue of the Americas
New York, NY 10020

i haven't found any contact info for mr. klosterman directly, so going through his publisher is the unfortunately next best thing.

the letter can be longer, send a few copies as well, etc. see what happens.
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Tablesaw · . Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 303 Location: LACAUSA

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Whoa, this thread kinda got out of hand. And yes, one WILL be going to Esquire, do we have a write up?
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GSL · Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:17 am Post subject:

Courtesy of Wired News:
"Klosterman can't find a Lester Bangs because he's looking for a glossy-mag-anointed critic."

Szczepaniak · . Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 770

I just this opening paragraph.