| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
 Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: Yakuza: Featuring Luke Skywalker as Kiryu Kazuma |
 |
|
I saw this last night and thought it was pretty good news. Sega's Yakuza is going to feature top tier voice talent, including Michael Rosenbaum, Michael Madsen, Eliza Dushku, Rachel Leigh Cook, and Mark Hamill. This was good news to me considering the fact that Shenmue's voice acting, well... it sucked. I told Shaper about it and he was all, "how is it good news that Mark Hamill's doing the voices?"
I was all like "wuh? He's an awesome voice actor! Did you know he voices the Joker?"
He was all, "I've never seen Batman." (this is another problem altogether, but it doesn't belong in the gaming forum)
So I was like, "Dude, he's an awesome voice actor."
And Matt says to me, he says, "Yeah, it doesn't matter because it should be subtitled instead."
So I say, "No way man. You do realize that Japanese games themselves are dubbed, and with enough care on the part of the localization team it can be even better than the original, right?"
So he says, "Are you serious? You're fooling yourself."
So I ask you young TGQ Forumites, which one of us is wrong? Can Luke Skywalker save the Yakuza universe, or are we totally screwed and destined to hear voices that don't capture the feeling and intent of the original games? This basic topic is one that is often discussed by Anime dorks, but we're talking aboug games here. But maybe it's not so different. Are games different from Anime when it comes to voice work? If a game has a lot of in-game voice work that would require you to read and play the game at the same time does that change whether or not the game should be dubbed vs subbed?
-Wes
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Tablesaw
.
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 303
Location: LACAUSA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Yakuza: Featuring Luke Skywalker as Kiryu Kazuma |
|
|
| SuperWes wrote: | And Matt says to me, he says, "Yeah, it doesn't matter because it should be subtitled instead."
So I say, "No way man. You do realize that Japanese games themselves are dubbed, and with enough care on the part of the localization team it can be even better than the original, right?" |
Shaper is wrong.
_________________
It's the saw of the table! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dark steve
.
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 1110
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Wes isn't wrong but Shaper is right to be wary. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
at this point, if a company isn't willing to invest a huge amount of time into voice acting and procuring good vocal talent, it's not worth it. it just makes things worse, immersion-wise, and just plain ole quality-wise.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Apol
.
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 157
Location: a curiously familiar pit
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You both have your reasons for thinking how you do.
It CAN be done well, see: Killer7.
It CAN also be done terribly, see: Symphony of the Night
_________________
LJ -- Profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr. Apol wrote: | | It CAN be done well, see: Killer7. |
....
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Case in point: Shenmue II (Euro version with subtitles is much better)
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | Case in point: Shenmue II (Euro version with subtitles is much better) |
Yeah, and if we sat around the office and dubbed a few episodes of Sailor Moon into English it probably wouldn't be better than the Japanese version either. But we're neither voice actors or actors, much like the people who Sega/Microsoft got to dub Shenmue/Shenmue 2.
Using Shenmue as an example of why dubbing is bad to have is like using Star Wars Episode 1 as an example of why acting in general is bad. Within the confines of the example given it's hard to argue against it, but as soon as you throw in some other examples it's easy to see that this is just one bad seed in a medium full of counterexamples. Just for kicks, lets take a game that has both the original Japanese dub and a new US dub included. Let's look at Disgaea. As an experiment, try playing the first half hour in English and then switch it over to Japanese and try it again. You'll notice that the jokes are actually funny with the timing that comes from watching them played out in English, but pretty terrible when you're forced to read along with the Japanese. It's an example of good voice acting that's done by competent voice actors and it actually makes the game better.
So yeah, I stand by my assertion that if you get competent people to do voice acting it can actually improve the experience.
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It CAN also be done terribly, see: Symphony of the Night |
yeah, but it's so classic that everything's ok.
the intro always makes me laugh. that's not a bad thing in this context.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Apol
.
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 157
Location: a curiously familiar pit
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperWes wrote: | | Mr. Apol wrote: | | It CAN be done well, see: Killer7. |
....
-Wes |
WELL I THOUGHT IT WAS GOOD AT LEAST. I really enjoyed the dialogue between Harmon and EVIL GUY (can't remember his name) at the end of the first level.
I knew that I was dating a winner when one day I said to her "DIE MONSTER, you don't belong in this world!" out of the blue, and she replied "It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by... humans... who wish to pay me tribute."
Then she showed me that she had both Suikoden 2 and Castlevania Chronicles, and confessed to me her favorite SNES game was Super Ghouls N' Ghosts.
...
_________________
LJ -- Profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
I should probably note that I am arguing this as a concept more than a pracitce. In a perfect world...
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seryogin
JRPG Kommissar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 886
Location: Occupied Stalingrad
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is horrible. This really makes me not want to play this game anymore.
I mean, the logic here is simple; the game is set in the underworld of Japan, yet everyone's going to be speaking hammy English. Great! That totally kills the immersion, it would be like seeing another American movie with a cheap actor playing the evil Russian badguy who speaks two words of Russian at one point to show that he REALLY is Russian you know.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. Apol
.
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 157
Location: a curiously familiar pit
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| seryogin wrote: | This is horrible. This really makes me not want to play this game anymore.
I mean, the logic here is simple; the game is set in the underworld of Japan, yet everyone's going to be speaking hammy English. Great! That totally kills the immersion, it would be like seeing another American movie with a cheap actor playing the evil Russian badguy who speaks two words of Russian at one point to show that he REALLY is Russian you know. |
What about Russian TV shows that have Russian actors playing American villians that speak one or two words of Russian, just to show he's REALLY American?
_________________
LJ -- Profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
that stuff is awesome.
next someone's going to tell me red dawn wasn't a documentary.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tablesaw
.
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 303
Location: LACAUSA
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| seryogin wrote: | This is horrible. This really makes me not want to play this game anymore.
I mean, the logic here is simple; the game is set in the underworld of Japan, yet everyone's going to be speaking hammy English. Great! That totally kills the immersion, it would be like seeing another American movie with a cheap actor playing the evil Russian badguy who speaks two words of Russian at one point to show that he REALLY is Russian you know. |
Whereas leaving it in Japanese totally kills comprehensibility for the majority of the audience who do not speak Japanese. I mean, if you do, that's great. For me and most, the Japanese-language track is no better than a track of Peanuts adults doing that wah-wah thing.
_________________
It's the saw of the table! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tablesaw wrote: | | Whereas leaving it in Japanese totally kills comprehensibility for the majority of the audience who do not speak Japanese. I mean, if you do, that's great. For me and most, the Japanese-language track is no better than a track of Peanuts adults doing that wah-wah thing. |
Subtitles. If you have a dreamcast play Shenmue II, you will see how good it can get.
Also, good voice actors which emote well will speak to you no matter what language it is in.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tablesaw
.
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 303
Location: LACAUSA
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | Tablesaw wrote: | | Whereas leaving it in Japanese totally kills comprehensibility for the majority of the audience who do not speak Japanese. I mean, if you do, that's great. For me and most, the Japanese-language track is no better than a track of Peanuts adults doing that wah-wah thing. |
Subtitles. If you have a dreamcast play Shenmue II, you will see how good it can get. |
If I'm going to be reading the story, it doesn't matter what incomprehensible track I'm listening to. Japanese is the same as Russian is the same as wah-wah is the same as whatever the King of All Cosmos is saying.
| Quote: | | Also, good voice actors which emote well will speak to you no matter what language it is in. |
This is not necessarily true, since not all voice roles are broad. Moreover, without understanding the language, one cannot be certain who is a good actor. Mostover, if you're reading subtitles along with a vocal track, you apply your own emotional perceptions to the meaningless sounds you're hearing, creating a perceived harmony between the two that may or may not actually exist.
_________________
It's the saw of the table! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | Subtitles. If you have a dreamcast play Shenmue II, you will see how good it can get.
Also, good voice actors which emote well will speak to you no matter what language it is in. |
But you need to realize that video games are different from movies in that your eyes need to focus on what the player and enemies are doing. Subtitles are fine for cutscenes, but what happens if the story is moved out of the cutscenes and into the game itself (which is what games should really be doing now)? Won't you get your ass kicked if you've got to read subtitles while fighting?
Also: Shenmue isn't a game with cutscenes. It's a movie with gamescenes.
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tablesaw wrote: | | shapermc wrote: | | Subtitles. If you have a dreamcast play Shenmue II, you will see how good it can get. |
If I'm going to be reading the story, it doesn't matter what incomprehensible track I'm listening to. Japanese is the same as Russian is the same as wah-wah is the same as whatever the King of All Cosmos is saying. |
I am going to end this line of thinking. These noises are not what the brain picks up as language, but noise. Much the same way that animals sound, or the examples you speak of above, you cannot say that the way they sound is similar at all.
| Tablesaw wrote: | | shaper wrote: | | Also, good voice actors which emote well will speak to you no matter what language it is in. |
This is not necessarily true, since not all voice roles are broad. Moreover, without understanding the language, one cannot be certain who is a good actor. Mostover, if you're reading subtitles along with a vocal track, you apply your own emotional perceptions to the meaningless sounds you're hearing, creating a perceived harmony between the two that may or may not actually exist. |
That's not the point. A person who is a "bad actor" in a high school play who can emote well and speak through tones and pitches will often bring an emotional response. Take another common example: Opera. Even more specifically, watch the movie Philidelphia, the scene where Tom Hanks (playing a character who has no understanding of the language the opera is being sung in) is moved to tears while explaining what is being sung about in the opera. Many people who do not understand Italian are moved to tears or show strong passion and affirmation with opera. Opera usues supertitles usually or a script in the program that you must follow. They don't usually translate the songs to english to preserve the inital integrity.
This is what I am talking about.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Also, good voice actors which emote well will speak to you no matter what language it is in. |
depends on the language. many of the asian languages sound pissed off no matter what they're talking about. polish is another one. dutch always sounds cute no matter how angry they are. irish? jesus. sounds like someone having a stroke.
at least to my tender ears, that is.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vf10a
.
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 25
Location: England
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tablesaw wrote: | | Whereas leaving it in Japanese totally kills comprehensibility for the majority of the audience who do not speak Japanese. I mean, if you do, that's great. For me and most, the Japanese-language track is no better than a track of Peanuts adults doing that wah-wah thing. |
Only when you hear someone speaking a language you can generally tell what language it is even if you don't understand it. Someone speaking Russian sounds completely different to someone speaking Japanese. I think keeping in the native language helps with immersion for this reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
immersion is another excellent point.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | immersion is another excellent point. |
Which side are you on with this comment? For me, immersion happens when I'm not taken out of the game and can fully concentrate on it. Having Yakuza in English may not be ideal, since it takes place in Japan and was originally in Japanese, but Shenmue II is a wonderful example of a game that's probably ok to be dubbed into English using competent voice actors. The original design for Shenmue II called for Hong Kong voice actors to be used in order to fully replicate the feeling of being in Hong Kong. Eventually - probably because of the reasons given by the pro-voice acting side in the above posts - those plans were scrapped and the voice acting was switched to Japanese people instead. This probably pissed off Yu Suzuki a bit, but hey what can you do.
If you think about it, what you get when playing Shenmue II Euro is people in Hong Kong speaking Mandarin Chinese that has then been dubbed into Japanese and subtitled into English. Contrary to popular belief, this is not the director's intent, and while the Japanese dub that you hear when playing the game might make it feel like you're actually in the orient, in reality you're listening to the wrong side of the ocean.
In conclusion, the dubbing in Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater should technically be done by an American dude with an Alaskan accent speaking bad Russian that has then been subtitled into Japanese and/or English. I mean, if you want to keep the director's intent that is...
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm sorry, you completly don't make sense to me. Guys running around in the grimy underbelly of Japan, who look like Japanese men, speaking like they are in Reservoir Dogs takes me out of the element more than getting use to subtitles.
I mean, do you people actually watch movies subtitled? It isn't hard, it is not very distracting. I also see that real comment, not my attached observation, was completly ignored by you.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | I'm sorry, you completly don't make sense to me. |
So, answer me this: Did Shenmue II's subtitles make you feel like you were in Japan?
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i only watch american movies.
| Quote: | If tomorrow all the things were gone I’d worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
I’d thank my lucky stars to be living here today,
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.
And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.
From the lakes of Minnesota, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the plains of Texas, from sea to shining sea,
From Detroit down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, there’s pride in every American heart,
and it’s time to stand and say:
I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free.
And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.
|
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperWes wrote: | | Shapermc wrote: | | I'm sorry, you completly don't make sense to me. |
So, answer me this: Did Shenmue II's subtitles make you feel like you were in Japan? |
You mean China? Also, it added a layer of immersion to it all. It added the feeling of being more foreign. It didn't suck. When you watch a foreign film you don't feel like you are in France or Germany. That's a stupid question to ask.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | SuperWes wrote: | | Shapermc wrote: | | I'm sorry, you completly don't make sense to me. |
So, answer me this: Did Shenmue II's subtitles make you feel like you were in Japan? |
You mean China? Also, it added a layer of immersion to it all. It added the feeling of being more foreign. It didn't suck. When you watch a foreign film you don't feel like you are in France or Germany. That's a stupid question to ask. |
So basically they should have released Shenmue II in English in Japan, so that way it would have come off as foreign to them and replicated the feeling of actually being in Hong Kong - having to read subtitles, just like if they actually were in Hong Kong.
I was pissed when they took away Mei Ling's accent from Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes. Man, it made me feel like she was Japanese. It immersed me.
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tablesaw
.
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 303
Location: LACAUSA
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | I'm sorry, you completly don't make sense to me. Guys running around in the grimy underbelly of Japan, who look like Japanese men, speaking like they are in Reservoir Dogs takes me out of the element more than getting use to subtitles. |
Also, I hear that Japanese men communicate by writing down shorthand versions in English of what they are saying in Japanese and then holding the message waist-high, so that if the Japanese man they are speaking to happens to actually be a puppet being possessed by an American, the American still will be able to understand.
_________________
It's the saw of the table! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperWes wrote: | So basically they should have released Shenmue II in English in Japan, so that way it would have come off as foreign to them and replicated the feeling of actually being in Hong Kong - having to read subtitles, just like if they actually were in Hong Kong.
I was pissed when they took away Mei Ling's accent from Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes. Man, it made me feel like she was Japanese. It immersed me.
-Wes |
Some of the Chinese characters in the Japanese version were subtitled in Japanese. And the main character spoke Japanese, he was from JAPAN. It was a Japanese game. This is also a much more involved process than most games. Lets look at some history of the game.
"The game is produced by Sega's Toshihiro Nagoshi, collaborating with Japanese author Seishu Hase as scenario director.
[…]
Sega General Manager Hideki Okamura explained: "We hope to promote the game as entertainment for adults and as a marquee title for Sega." Okamura also revealed that the game has been in development for three years and will deliver a lengthy gameplay experience along with new forms of expression.
[…]
To realize the adult world and storyline of Ryu Ga Gotoku, Sega has drafted some top talent. The game's voice acting staff includes, as the voice of Kazuma's mentor, one of Japan's most famous actors, Tetsuya Watari. Watari appeared at the event and explained that he studied alongside Sega Sammy president Hajime Satomi."
So, what do we have? We have a well know writer of Japanese liturature. We have a Voice Actor for the game who worked closely with the production so he knew exactly what they wanted. Then, on top of that we see that they want people to take this game very seriously and hope to get across new forms of expression. Sega obviously took this game seriously and it should be considered a contemporary work that should be handled as a cultural piece.
I also think your crazy and lazy for not liking subtitles. You forget you are reading subtitles completly after about 5 min. HELL most damn games in the US already HAVE subtitles and its in English anyways. 9/10 you can't turn them off and you usually have the read BEFORE the voice actor gets to speak the lines. What difference would it make if the game was in a different language?
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | When you watch a foreign film you don't feel like you are in France or Germany. |
i generally feel like i'm sitting on my couch.
but then again, i try not to eat a strip of blotter before settling down for a foreign film.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, at this point my joking is getting annoying to everyone, even myself. Subbing into a different language is an unavoidable form of abstraction. Being an abstraction, it is destined to break immersion on some level. Something is no longer authentic if it's a translation of the original. So what we're really arguing about is which abstraction is more effective.
My opinions lean on the dubbing side because the abstraction that bothers me least is the one that's closest to my daily routine. I'm used to watching TV in English, I'm used to speaking in English, and I'm used to listening to people speak to each other in English. In other words, I prefer to not know that what I'm watching is an abstraction.
Shaper's opinions lean toward the subtitling side because (correct me if I'm wrong) if he knows ahead of time that things are being abstracted he doesn't want to be bullshitted. He's fine with making compromises because he knows that there were compromises made in the first place.
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | Sega General Manager Hideki Okamura explained: "We hope to promote the game as entertainment for adults and as a marquee title for Sega." Okamura also revealed that the game has been in development for three years... |
This is precisely why the game had to be dubbed. A majority of Americans prefer quality dubbing to quality subtitling, and Sega had to make a compromise if they wanted to have big sales. In this rare case (a game that takes place in Japan and is deeply rooted in Japanese culture) I can see why subtitles may have been better, but most people don't know whether their games come from America or Japan, and if you want to appeal to these people your game can't rely on that knowledge.
So yeah English = stronger sales = a better idea for Sega.
To reiterate my first point, I'm really glad that Sega's taking the voice talent seriously, because otherwise they could have ruined a perfectly good game.
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | I should probably note that I am arguing this as a concept more than a pracitce. In a perfect world... |
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lockeownzj00
.
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 214
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
but then again, i try not to eat a strip of blotter before settling down for a foreign film. |
You are missing out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
anyone who wastes hoffman's divine elixer on a fucking movie is a gimp.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seryogin
JRPG Kommissar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 886
Location: Occupied Stalingrad
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr. Apol wrote: | | seryogin wrote: | This is horrible. This really makes me not want to play this game anymore.
I mean, the logic here is simple; the game is set in the underworld of Japan, yet everyone's going to be speaking hammy English. Great! That totally kills the immersion, it would be like seeing another American movie with a cheap actor playing the evil Russian badguy who speaks two words of Russian at one point to show that he REALLY is Russian you know. |
What about Russian TV shows that have Russian actors playing American villians that speak one or two words of Russian, just to show he's REALLY American? |
What?
Wouldn't they be speaking English?
And, no, that doesn't happen.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seryogin
JRPG Kommissar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 886
Location: Occupied Stalingrad
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh, fuck, you're telling me that they're replacing Tetsuya Watari, star of some of my favorite films (Tokyo Drifter and Graveyard of Honor), with Mark Hamill! Fuck, I'm importing this...
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tablesaw
.
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 303
Location: LACAUSA
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sorrry, I've been busy.
| Shapermc wrote: | | Shapermc wrote: | | I should probably note that I am arguing this as a concept more than a pracitce. In a perfect world... |
|
"A perfect world"? You seriously lack imagination.
In a perfect world, language would be no barrier to communication. I would be able to listen to Japanese actors and understand what they're saying without reading text in a different language. Subtitles would be necessary only for those who do not wish to listen (since clearly, the deaf could be made to hear in this perfect world).
| Shapermc wrote: | | Take another common example: Opera. Even more specifically, watch the movie Philidelphia, the scene where Tom Hanks (playing a character who has no understanding of the language the opera is being sung in) is moved to tears while explaining what is being sung about in the opera. Many people who do not understand Italian are moved to tears or show strong passion and affirmation with opera. Opera usues supertitles usually or a script in the program that you must follow. They don't usually translate the songs to english to preserve the inital integrity. |
Opera, like many forms of music, downplays the necessity of textual comprehension. This isn't just in opera or across languages; many popular songs are enjoyed with only partial comprehension of lyrics (and sometimes with none at all). In opera, where the vocal performers are instruments, not actors, no attempt to translate is made, because little attempt is made to contemplate the lyrics orginally. However, in American-style musicals and much light opera, the songs and the book are translated, because comprehension is important.
| Shapermc wrote: | | That's not the point. A person who is a "bad actor" in a high school play who can emote well and speak through tones and pitches will often bring an emotional response. |
You've changed your position. Originally, you were saying that the Japanese track should be retained because it is good. Now you're saying that it should be retained regardless of how good it is.
If you're arguing for the "integrity of the work" you're on a losing battle unless you retreat to the perfect world mentioned above. I mean, why should we protect the integrity of the vocal track when we're already compromising the integrity of the text?
| Shapermc wrote: | | Tablesaw wrote: | | If I'm going to be reading the story, it doesn't matter what incomprehensible track I'm listening to. Japanese is the same as Russian is the same as wah-wah is the same as whatever the King of All Cosmos is saying. |
I am going to end this line of thinking. These noises are not what the brain picks up as language, but noise. Much the same way that animals sound, or the examples you speak of above, you cannot say that the way they sound is similar at all. |
You're incorrect. The brain interprets "language" far more often then when we actually hear language. The wah-wah is a good example, as are, in fact, most animals. Yes, clearly I can distinguish that the teacher wah-wah sounds different than Snoopy's growls, but both get interpreted as language expressing no semantic content other than what can be inferred from visual and textual context.
| vf10a wrote: | | Only when you hear someone speaking a language you can generally tell what language it is even if you don't understand it. Someone speaking Russian sounds completely different to someone speaking Japanese. |
Unless I'm mistaken, the characters in this game are going to also look Japanese and be in Japan. I get the point. I've probably gotten that point before I put the disc in the console. Why spend so much space having them reaffirm that they are Japanese by having to listen to otherwise incomprehensible Japanese for the hours and hours that I will be playing the game?
| vf10a wrote: | | I think keeping in the native language helps with immersion for this reason. |
Appeals to authenticity and immersion are simply smokescreens. They appear to support your argument when you talk about Shenmue or Yakuza (or do you demand that it be called Ryū ga Gotoku?), but they fall down when we consider something like, oh, let's say Kingdom Hearts. I mean, should I have a problem with Japan for making the game with Japanese voices for clearly American talking animals, or should I have a problem with America for cruelly ripping those (obviously better-quality) voices out of the game and replacing them with American voices. What about Hades? How dare the Japanese opt for Kyusaku Shimada over James Woods, the originator of the role? But wait a minute, shouldn't I be upset at Disney for not having Mr. Woods speaking in Ancient Greek in the first place? What about Aladdin and Jasmine not speaking Arabic? Shouldn't Winnie the Pooh have an English accent?
Again, if you understand Japanese, good for you. If you're learning Japanese, good for you. Otherwise, you aren't getting as much out of listening to Japanese in a videogame as youwant to believe you are.
_________________
It's the saw of the table! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 6563
Location: bohan
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
a perfect world would be a featureless cube.
so let's not hypothecate too much.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Good responses dude.
| Tablesaw wrote: | | but they fall down when we consider something like, oh, let's say Kingdom Hearts. |
You stole my example here. I was going to bring this game up later. I actually played through Kingdom Hearts in its entirety in Japanese. It's amazing how close the Japanese voices are to the English counterparts. I got the same feeling watching these guys say their lines in a mostly non-intelligbable language that I do when I watch them in english. If you would close your eyes and listen to the voices you could easily pick out who was playing Donald Duck, Goofy, and Pooh, just by listening. I'll have to track down a video later and put it up to show you guys what it's like.
The point is, these characters are the essence of what good voice acting should be. Good voice acting should do the same thing that good translations should do, that is to say "capture the feeling and intent of the original."
Another important note about Kingdom Hearts is that it's one of the only games I know of where they actually reanimated the lips to match the US voice actors. Pretty hard core!
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well ho ho! Wes being an ass killed any real desire I have to continue this fight.
Also, Disney should have problems with the voice actors who played in Kingdom Hearts (1, I never saw, nor want to see, KH2). They were pretty terrible most of the time!
Side Point: I would rather read a game and listen to it in a different language where I don't know if they are a bad actor or not, than know that they are a bad actor. That takes me out of the element more than just about anything else.
Bonus Point: Silent Hill and Rule of Rose were spoken in english for the Japanese version.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dark steve
.
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 1110
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| seryogin wrote: | | Oh, fuck, you're telling me that they're replacing Tetsuya Watari, star of some of my favorite films (Tokyo Drifter and Graveyard of Honor), with Mark Hamill! Fuck, I'm importing this... |
Wait, really?
Fuck! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
I stand corrected.
God, Sega sucks.
-Wes
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lackey
.
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 1107
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, is this real? Because I didn't hear Mark Hamill, and they apparently really took down the trailer quality two or three notches with those cheesy text titles. Plus it sounds like people are popping into the mic and such. Crappy voice acting or not; I'd expect them to have half-professional production values at least.
_________________
| Little bird fighting against a bat sect game | |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scratchmonkey
.
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 1439
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tablesaw wrote: | | You're incorrect. The brain interprets "language" far more often then when we actually hear language. The wah-wah is a good example, as are, in fact, most animals. Yes, clearly I can distinguish that the teacher wah-wah sounds different than Snoopy's growls, but both get interpreted as language expressing no semantic content other than what can be inferred from visual and textual context. |
Actually, technically, you're incorrect. Yes, we and other animals communicate through many different means, including non-verbal. However, this is not technically "language", it's just communication.[/pedantic linguist]
And yes, that clip is horrificly awful, although not as good-bad as the announcer they have for the Maximum Impact games. That guy is on his own level. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
*BOOM*
"Blarghhhh!"
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dracko
.
Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 2613
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
But is it a good game? The review up on GameTrailers seems to boast better voice acting than this clip. It looks like a broken, uncomfortable game, like Shenmue, but the appeal is still there.
_________________
"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dracko wrote: | | But is it a good game? |
From what I saw of initial import reactions to the game is that you will either understand the combat system right away (or very quickly) and love the game, or you won't ever "get" the combat system and hate the game the whole time.
So, it is a love/hate game... just like a lot of Sega games.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr. Apol wrote: |
I knew that I was dating a winner when one day I said to her "DIE MONSTER, you don't belong in this world!" out of the blue, and she replied "It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by... humans... who wish to pay me tribute."
|
I know girls like that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
