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The Nintendo Fanboy and "Every System an Island"
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:28 am    Post subject: The Nintendo Fanboy and "Every System an Island" Reply with quote

Quote:
The Nintendo 64 was, ultimately, unsuccessful because it was alone and unnecessary. It changed very little about videogames and wasn’t particularly good at anything. You could say the Nintendo 64 was an island. It connected to nothing and had no bridges.


It's almost tough to read this just a few articles after "Input as Metaphor", and its pointing out of the innovationn that game has.... innovation tied to the new hardware, that ungainly inverted trident. Hell, it's hard to reconcile that paragraph with the NEXT paragraph in the article.

So Super Mario 64 belies the claim that the N64 changed very little about videogames.

Not good at anything...it was a SUPERB multiplayer system.

And while I guess I see how backwards compatability will kind of isolate it, it was two other interesting metaphorical bridges; back to 4 ports in the system (actually maybe thats an innovation. Atari 8bit computers had it but gave it up) and analog sticks (Apple II and/or Vectrex for that)

Anyway, just a reaction.
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Wilkes
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The Nintendo Fanboy and "Every System an Island&quo Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Quote:
The Nintendo 64 was, ultimately, unsuccessful because it was alone and unnecessary. It changed very little about videogames and wasn’t particularly good at anything. You could say the Nintendo 64 was an island. It connected to nothing and had no bridges.


It's almost tough to read this just a few articles after "Input as Metaphor", and its pointing out of the innovationn that game has.... innovation tied to the new hardware, that ungainly inverted trident. Hell, it's hard to reconcile that paragraph with the NEXT paragraph in the article.

So Super Mario 64 belies the claim that the N64 changed very little about videogames.

Not good at anything...it was a SUPERB multiplayer system.

And while I guess I see how backwards compatability will kind of isolate it, it was two other interesting metaphorical bridges; back to 4 ports in the system (actually maybe thats an innovation. Atari 8bit computers had it but gave it up) and analog sticks (Apple II and/or Vectrex for that)

Anyway, just a reac

I'm at a friend house, drinking with girls I already know I'm not going to hook up with. So: I don't have time to understand what you are saying. Anyway; the article is bad, sure. I'm not a fanboy; no. You're wrong; probably. I still like you, though.
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: The Nintendo Fanboy and "Every System an Island& Reply with quote

Wilkes wrote:
I'm at a friend house, drinking with girls I already know I'm not going to hook up with. So: I don't have time to understand what you are saying. Anyway; the article is bad, sure. I'm not a fanboy; no. You're wrong; probably. I still like you, though.

Oddly enough the article I'm trying to write for an upcoming TGQ involves my lesbian drinking buddy in college. Who was then my wife. And then my exwife. So it just goes to show you, you never can tell in terms of the drinking and hooking up.

If you feel like it later we can discus the merits of my counterpoint, which admittedly was not written for clarity.
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Wilkes
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: The Nintendo Fanboy and "Every System an Island& Reply with quote

My night has gone from inevitably sad to a full blown installation of frowny face. So, I will defend my silly, silly thing on the internet from the internet. Yeah, I know it's not good. Though, shaper saw fit to print it, so when you say it's hard to read compared to the better articles (read: not mine) well, your beef is with him, I reckon.
kirkjerk wrote:
Not good at anything...it was a SUPERB multiplayer system.

It had four player multiplayer, sure. Goldeneye, SSB, Mario Party, Diddy Kong Racing*. They were good games with four players. Are you saying that having four player video games is a major innovation? Do you think it is? That the Nintendo 64 had 4 controller ports first didn't make it "superb" at anything except having two fewer people having to wait a turn to play. Also: making people squint at the screen more.. Having Rare's only relevant game in 3D and Sakurai's seminal 3D work makes it historic, yeah. Superb? Not really. It's innovations come off as inevitable in hindsight. Analogue stick: come on. Come on. 4 Controller ports: not important in the long term, really. Games inspired by mario party wouldn't be around, I guess. Though hell if I've played a decent mario party clone. And mario party doesn't really get me up either.

And Goldeneye is not fun after playing Halo. Not fun.

I'd call a video game system that can connect to the internet and play against people over the internet a "SUPERB multiplayer system". That's me, though It did some good things and I had some fun with it; nothing that wasn't done better on xbox, really. I guess I went there.

N64 wasn't much.

Anyway, I don't really remember most of what I wrote in that thing. If you want to compile a more thorough list of things I said that come off half-baked/not thought out, post them here and I'd be happy to defend them until I get bored or find something else to do.


Last edited by Wilkes on Sun May 28, 2006 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wilkes
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Better than Mario Kart

(well, more memorable for me. yes -- including multiplayer**)

((**fucking planes, man!))
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Wilkes
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: The Nintendo Fanboy and "Every System an Island& Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Wilkes wrote:
I'm at a friend house, drinking with girls I already know I'm not going to hook up with. So: I don't have time to understand what you are saying. Anyway; the article is bad, sure. I'm not a fanboy; no. You're wrong; probably. I still like you, though.

Oddly enough the article I'm trying to write for an upcoming TGQ involves my lesbian drinking buddy in college. Who was then my wife. And then my exwife. So it just goes to show you, you never can tell in terms of the drinking and hooking up.

If you feel like it later we can discus the merits of my counterpoint, which admittedly was not written for clarity.

the hell; I could never get married any time near college. must have been a hell of a trip. I look forward to reading the piece. look for my next piece too! I talk about stealing mostly.
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The Great Unwashed
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I liked this article, Wilkes, though I found it a bit odd... you admit that the reason for the underscored success of the N64 is because they were the first to cross the technological divide, yet you say that implementing four controllers isn't enough because your ideal multiplayer experience comes through online play? Isn't online play in itself a technological divide? I mean there's no way the N64 could have implemented that at launch, like the Xbox did.

I'm not trying to have a dig at you here, I'm just wondering... what would you have had the N64 do instead? You seem to indicate that four controllers and an analog stick was no more then the inevitable next thing to happen to consoles, but... isn't the internet really the next same inevitable thing? I mean, where do we go from there? Can't we apply the "inevitable" label to just about everything?
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Great Unwashed wrote:
but... isn't the internet really the next same inevitable thing?

I will take the oppertunity to note that I have been on the internet since the late 80's. I still don't play well with others.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: The Nintendo Fanboy and "Every System an Island& Reply with quote

Wilkes wrote:

kirkjerk wrote:
Not good at anything...it was a SUPERB multiplayer system.

It had four player multiplayer, sure. Goldeneye, SSB, Mario Party, Diddy Kong Racing*. They were good games with four players. Are you saying that having four player video games is a major innovation? Do you think it is?

I do. It hadn't been done for at least 10 years at that point, and never as well.

Multitaps had been kicking around, but the sad truth is accessories receive a small fraction of the gaming support as do main consoles.

Quote:
That the Nintendo 64 had 4 controller ports first didn't make it "superb" at anything except having two fewer people having to wait a turn to play. Also: making people squint at the screen more..

Also: getting me to buy a 36" TV in 1998...

Anyway, 3 or 4 players at once allows for more interesting adversarial setups than straight head to head competition.

Quote:
Having Rare's only relevant game in 3D and Sakurai's seminal 3D work makes it historic, yeah. Superb? Not really. It's innovations come off as inevitable in hindsight.


Every goddamn thing looks inevitable in hindsight. Sony's ridiculous lack of 4 ports on the PS2 (And even needing a DIFFERENT multitap than the PS1) show it all as a little less inevitable.

Quote:
Analogue stick: come on. Come on. 4 Controller ports: not important in the long term, really. Games inspired by mario party wouldn't be around, I guess. Though hell if I've played a decent mario party clone. And mario party doesn't really get me up either.


Err, why are you come on-ing the analog stick? You have to go back to the Apple II, or maybe those comically oversized PC flightsticks. Nintendo (supposedly by lifting from an unreleased 3DO prototype controller) brought this control back to forefront. It's not just that it's analog either, it's that it's more than 8 frickin' directions.

Quote:
And Goldeneye is not fun after playing Halo. Not fun.

I've never grokked the appeal of Goldeneye. But there being a 4 or 5 year gap before Halo, I have to give it due respect.

Quote:
I'd call a video game system that can connect to the internet and play against people over the internet a "SUPERB multiplayer system". That's me, though It did some good things and I had some fun with it; nothing that wasn't done better on xbox, really. I guess I went there.

Well, there's the crux of the matter. Online play is a whole 'nother beast than "couch" or splitscreen or whatever gaming. I've never gotten into it, to me it feels like the gaming equivalent of anonymous sex in restrooms, with you never knowing if you're getting your ass handed to you by that 12 year old because of your lack of skill, their cheats, or if you do find some n00b to take it out on, to make up for the way you can't be on the system practicing 10 hours a day, they're going to disconnect when their defeat is nigh.

Re: the Xbox. It was a decent system, and between the 4 ports, great controllers, high powered system, they did most things right (maybe not the formfactors) But like my friend says, whats on it for multiplayer besides FPS? There's Fuzion Frenzy. And, um...Crimson Skies? (which is a good game one player, so-so in groups)
Quote:

N64 wasn't much.

Anyway, I don't really remember most of what I wrote in that thing. If you want to compile a more thorough list of things I said that come off half-baked/not thought out, post them here and I'd be happy to defend them until I get bored or find something else to do.

Nah, it was a good article (even if I've oversimplified it in my mind to 'backwards compatabilty is sweet, and the N64 isn't so good') but I thought you were unfair to the N64 Maybe I'm biased because it came into my life right when I was living w/ a bunch of other potential gamers, so there was always someone to fire up a game of Mario Party or Smash Bros or Mario Kart with. (Agree about Diddy Kong Racing, btw; between its weapon system, 1 player quest w/ bosses, variety of vehicles, and battle modes, I think it's ultimately superior to Mario Kart, even if Mario Kart has a better "feel" for the actual karting.

Another odd distinction of the N64: last system to have a good Tank/Tokyo Wars game. I'm not sure what went wrong with WDL:ThunderTanks (which, har har, actually was supposed to be my killer app as I got a PS2) but BattleTanx remains. Alien Front Online had promise, but didn't quite make it.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Brother-in-law and sister came over for a couple of days last week; we played my Nintendo 64 a whole lot. Mario Kart, Pilotwings, and 1080 got a lot of love. Not much else did- (besides a little GC Warioware) The 64 is one of those stalwarts for multiplayer that you always come back to and it has some games I feel I will never get bored of. I think with all the games Nintendo put out on the Cube which had an N64 equivalent, the 64 version is superior.

(admittedly I should never have gotten rid of my Dreamcast, because we would have played us some SFIII:3 and House of the Dead 2)

The 64 invented the way we play 3D games today and brought us 4-player splitscreen. If you look at the Nintendo's first-party output on any given console as one album, then the 64 is one of my favorite albums by my favorite band. I had four female Japanese students staying at my mum's house, and they saw my 64 in amongst all my other consoles and went crazy. 'NINTENDO ROKU-JU-YOOOOOOONN!' One of them told me she still plays Mario 64 every day, in Japan. That the 64 was unnecessary is crazy. For me, it's still necessary!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Nintendo 64 has to be one of my favorite gaming systems just for its sheer variety of games and (in my opinion) high signal-to-noise ratio for quality titles. It's sadly lacking in traditional RPGs, but that's about the only fault I can give it. Obviously, the system's 3D lacks polish when viewed in light of the current gen, but the games also hold my attention for longer amounts of time. Sin & Punishment still wows me each time I play it, and there's nothing like the simple, almost arcade-y action of Goldeneye 007.

I'm not sure I could agree that N64 predecessors to Gamecube games are superior in general, though. I loved Rogue Squadron and play it quite often to this day, but Rogue Leader just stands head and shoulders above it. Same goes for Animal Crossing/Doubutsu no Mori, although in this case the difference is mainly in the little additional tweaks Nintendo put into the little details (graphically, you'd be hard pressed to tell screenshots of the two apart!) Starfox, on the other hand, is a series whose pinnacle--I believe--was reached on the N64, and I've yet to play an installment that bests Starfox 64. Of course, discounting the abomination that is Starfox Adventures, I'm only left with Starfox Assault (as of right now) for comparison, but still... Great system, overall. Now if only I could snag a cheap copy of Bangai-O.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greatsaintlouis wrote:
Starfox, on the other hand, is a series whose pinnacle--I believe--was reached on the N64, and I've yet to play an installment that bests Starfox 64.


have you played starfox 2?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If by "island" you mean an overblown piece of hardware that's been bettered by its contemporary rival, then sure.

Nintendo is unnecessary.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
If by "island" you mean an overblown piece of hardware that's been bettered by its contemporary rival, then sure.

For many genres, N64 was undoubtedly better than the PSX.

Also I',m confused by the way you're using tenses... do you mean, that was bettered by its contemporary rival at the time, or that, in retrospect, the PSX seems like a better system?
Quote:
Nintendo is unnecessary.

Nintendo led in a lot of ways where other companies than followed, especially in terms of controllers. If they had not been there to lead, some of those innovations would have happened, sometime, maybe, but the industry would be different and, largely, worse.

You need to make a better argument, unless you're just trying to be vaguely provocative.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm saying that the Master System was better than the NES, the Genesis better than the SNES, the Dreamcast better than the N64 and the X-Box better than the Gamecube.

One department Nintendo will always show signs of actual innovation is hand-held gaming.

Other than that, Nintendo set a lot of standards in gaming which honestly have been more detrimental than beneficial, which is becoming more and more obvious. True, I'm thinking more of their business and advertising practices which are downright insulting more than their games, but truthfully, they haven't broken much new ground there either.
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
I'm saying that the Master System was better than the NES, the Genesis better than the SNES, the Dreamcast better than the N64 and the X-Box better than the Gamecube.

I disagree on about all these things, especially judging my game libraries. And question if N64 and the Dreamcast were true contemporaries... DC seems to straddle a generational middle ground.

The SNES and N64 both did new and interesting things with the controller hardware that other companies built on. The NES popularized some new controller idea as well, not sure where the SMS fit into that, but some of those controller ideas seem to have an evolution from the Game and Watch, so again, credit to Nintendo.
Quote:
One department Nintendo will always show signs of actual innovation is hand-held gaming.

Among others, yes.
Quote:
Other than that, Nintendo set a lot of standards in gaming which honestly have been more detrimental than beneficial, which is becoming more and more obvious. True, I'm thinking more of their business and advertising practices which are downright insulting more than their games, but truthfully, they haven't broken much new ground there either.

A lot of standards, like what? They're hardly the worst offenders at over-doing franchises if that's what you mean.

Their business practices in the 80s were very heavy handed and wrong, a combination of arrogance and a desperate need to avoid a repeat of the crash of the early 80s. And in retrospect, sticking to cartridges in the mid-90s was probably a mistake on a few fronts, including business and their relationship with other game companies... though they also avoided the scurge of "Loading...." screens.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should meet a friend of mine; you'd get along swimmingly. The image of Mario is like the cross to a vampire.
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Wilkes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this thread is encouraging me to write more offensive articles :(
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PLEASE DO NOT PROVOKE THE FAN BOYS.

Oh, actually, go ahead. The resulting threads can be fun and even eduational, if people back up their arguments.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
I'm saying that the Master System was better than the NES, the Genesis better than the SNES, the Dreamcast better than the N64 and the X-Box better than the Gamecube.

There has never been a more wrong statement. The very core of its wrongness lies in comparing the Dreamcast to the N64. The Dreamcast is part of the PS2, Xbox, Gamecube generation, not the Playstation, N64, Saturn generation.

Besides, "better" is subjective. A system can be more powerful, but nobody ever does anything worthwhile with that power it doesn't really matter.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is less a case of true, objective comparison and more a case of, "something has to be better than Nintendo, because I hate Nintendo, so quick! who was Nintendo's competition at the time? Let's declare them better!"

And yes, the Dreamcast doesn't count versus the N64. But the PlayStation and Saturn do, so who's the winner here? And why not declare the PS2 better than the GameCube as well, or does this "Consoles minus Nintendo = Winner" formula not work when there is more than one challenger?

This line of thinking doesn't help anyone. It's a ridiculous tangent to consider. So, back to the topic...
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
I'm saying that the Master System was better than the NES, the Genesis better than the SNES, the Dreamcast better than the N64 and the X-Box better than the Gamecube.

I would disagree on two points: one that the NES was not worse just because of a technical lack, and two that the Gamecube is much better than the Xbox.

That said, the DS is really fantastic and makes up for a lot of underwhelming shows by Nintendo.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
one that the NES was not worse just because of a technical lack


I really hope you mean that the NES was better in every way except for technically, because otherwise we need to have a talk.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was what I was saying, yes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
That was what I was saying, yes.

What are the great games on the Master System again? I wasn't aware of any. Certainly none that compare to the Marios, Zeldas, Mega Mans, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Dragon Warrior I-IV, Final Fantasy, Castlevania, Metal Gear, Bionic Commando, Ducktales, Gradius, Life Force, Batman, A Boy and His Blob, Chip N' Dale, Contra, Crystalus, Shadowgate, Dr. Mario, Tetris, Ninja Gaiden, and... well, I could keep going, but I'm lost as to where the Master System even comes close to comparing.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It had R-Type, Zillion, Alex Kidd, Fantasy Zone...

But yea, the only thing it really had going was technical advantages.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the classic issue was who had the best port of Double Dragon?

SMS's version was actually... you know, like double, for the actual play, though NES had that interesting head to head mode that predated the large popularity of similar-ish fighters that came later.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gangster Town, man.

I also enjoy Action Fighter and Cyborg Hunter. And Wonder Boy! Not to mention it had some excellent arcade ports -- Afterburner? Space Harrier? Hell yes.

I don't understand Alex Kidd, though. Like, any of them.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phantasy Star. And, uh, OutRun?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Greatsaintlouis wrote:
Starfox, on the other hand, is a series whose pinnacle--I believe--was reached on the N64, and I've yet to play an installment that bests Starfox 64.


have you played starfox 2?


Starfox 2 is conceptually excellent but I thought the actual gameplay sections are pretty flimsy and not particularly fun to play. I'm not a fan of trundling through those corridors shooting switches to open doors, which is what the game seems to mostly consist of when you get down to it. I can kind of tell why they chose not to release it. I'm looking forward to seeing how they decide to improve on the concept with Starfox DS, though.

SuperWes wrote:
What are the great games on the Master System again?


I think time weeds out the chaff, and that's probably why I've never seen anyone playing a Master System game. In fact, before I read this thread I couldn't even name one. When you talk about influential games, the Master System's back catalogue isn't exactly up there. And of course no-one cares about the technical aspect, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about old games in the first place.
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swimmy wrote:
Phantasy Star. And, uh, OutRun?


I was actually going to say Phantasy Star, but then I realised I have only played 2, 4, and PSOBB (just a little though).

Weren't there Wonder Boy games on the MS? I should probably check those out.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell yes there were. Recognize this guy? From our webstore?

Wonder Boy III, SMS. I pored over the maps that were in VG&CE as a kid. The maps alone were goddamn magical.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
dessgeega wrote:
Greatsaintlouis wrote:
Starfox, on the other hand, is a series whose pinnacle--I believe--was reached on the N64, and I've yet to play an installment that bests Starfox 64.


have you played starfox 2?


Starfox 2 is conceptually excellent but I thought the actual gameplay sections are pretty flimsy and not particularly fun to play.

I'd have to agree here. Technically, Starfox 2 was pretty impressive (especially when you find a goddamn emulator that runs it properly!), but it was just lacking a certain amount of soul in comparison to Starfox or Starfox 64. I can't really describe what exactly it was about the game, but there was just something about it that never 'did it' for me.
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Alc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantasy Star, Wonder Boy, Alex Kidd - top titles.

First two Sonic SMS games - fantastic. Chaos is bearable but Blast is a sin (only released in Brazil, anyway)
Master of Darkness - capable Castlevania clone with excellent music
Aleste - impressive vertical shooter
Land of Illuision - don't laugh, it's a decent platformer beyond the obvious Disney license

Passable ports: New Zealand Story, Streets of Rage, Zool, Chuck Rock, Cool Spot, Strider, Ghouls and Ghosts. Ninja Gaiden too, looking way better than the NES version (though obviously not arcade-quality). Come to think of it Aleste is probably a port too.

A lot of these probably never made it to the States, the SMS was much bigger in Europe. For most people a Master Mega Converter (did you get the equivalent in the US?) is adequate for the few games that can't be found on other platforms.

I'm a big SMS fan, but regardless this statement:
Quote:
the Master System was better than the NES
is just nonsense, even on a subjective personal preference level the SMS' library can't really compare to the NES. The Megadrive was a decent competitor to the SNES, although I think the SNES bests it in retrospect in terms of volume of quality games. The Xbox has one? platform exclusive in its general top 20, and the other 19 of those are games I have no interest playing, so for me it's certainly no competitor to the Gamecube. What an inflammatory statement, though! I bet it was fun.

Last edited by Alc on Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dracko
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The SNES had a good game beyond Yoshi's Island?
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i believe the snes had exactly six good games. well, if you count super famicom titles.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was a late comer to the SNES, but since then I've discovered Tetris Attack, Donkey Kong Country (besides being pretty and fun, is one of the best co-op modes for a gamer to walk a newbie through), Super Metroid, Micro Machines, Star Fox, Super Mario Kart, Super Punch-Out, a fine port of Smash TV, Rampart, and some neat things like Super Mario All Stars, F-Zero, Super Mario World, and Pilotwings.

And then just recently I played Yoshi's Island on GBA. At the risk of raising some ire here, I thought it was a very worthy precursor to Yoshi's Story.

Hardware wise, the controllers brought the idea of arranging buttons so that they can act as an extra control pad (thus making stuff like the Smash TV port that much better, though they had a bit of too-many-button-itis w/ Super Mario World) and shoulder buttons.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
The SNES had a good game beyond Yoshi's Island?


I'm side-stepping the point of your statement somewhat because others are already refuting it, but I wouldn't say that any game on any system has managed to go beyond Yoshi's Island.

And, Dracko, I wish you'd change your tone from its standard inflammatory to something either more useful or more humorous.


Dess, does that list of six include On the Ball?
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you have been paying attention ^_^
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
The SNES had a good game beyond Yoshi's Island?

You sir are no longer allowed to express an opinion in this thread (I can back this statement up using moderator powers too, don't try me). At least, not until you at least try to explain away the "Master system is better than NES" comment. When I was growing up even the people who had Master Systems didn't think they were better. They just thought their parents hated them.

-Wes
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Alc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
I was a late comer to the SNES, but since then I've discovered Tetris Attack, Donkey Kong Country (besides being pretty and fun, is one of the best co-op modes for a gamer to walk a newbie through), Super Metroid, Micro Machines, Star Fox, Super Mario Kart, Super Punch-Out, a fine port of Smash TV, Rampart, and some neat things like Super Mario All Stars, F-Zero, Super Mario World, and Pilotwings.
No love for the shooters? Axelay, Macross: Scrambled Valkyrie, Super Aleste... peerless games for their time, on console at least. The Parodius games, Cybernator, Area 88 (AKA UN Squadron) and R-Type 3, all really good games. You can probably squeeze Contra 3 into the definition too. SNES was great for shooters.

No SNES praise list is complete without Umihara Kawase, either, although technically it's SFC (along with a couple of the above if I remember rightly).

What is the full list of 6 SNES games worth playing? And lord, why only 6? That would be a painful list for me to draw up.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alc wrote:
No love for the shooters? Axelay, Macross: Scrambled Valkyrie, Super Aleste... peerless games for their time, on console at least. The Parodius games, Cybernator, Area 88 (AKA UN Squadron) and R-Type 3, all really good games. You can probably squeeze Contra 3 into the definition too. SNES was great for shooters.

Well, not really my cuppa. This list is pared from my bestof page, something I decided to have handy for the recurring "what are your ten favorite games for X, though I only got around to covering Nintendo.

Plus I guess I remember reading early reports how shooters on the SNES tended to have a lot of showown. I don't know if they figured out ways around that or what.

For some reason this thread reminded me of a thought I had.. what could a SNES-era, sprite-based version of Smash Brothers have been like? You'd miss the scaling in and out that is kind of important to the current games, but other than that... it would be an interesting fan project, especially if insufficient attention was paid to IP law.

I've also considered the same thing w/ all the NES Mega Man bosses... and maybe some special mode where you could pick almost any critter in the game, from the mama froggies to those static cat things that just launch missles...
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Alc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Plus I guess I remember reading early reports how shooters on the SNES tended to have a lot of showown. I don't know if they figured out ways around that or what.
Without wanting to get too in-depth/off-topic, it plagued a few early games (Super R-Type, Gradius 3, and some others) but you just avoid them. I can't remember any of the games I've listed having show-stopping slowdown.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kirkjerk"]I've also considered the same thing w/ all the NES Mega Man bosses[quote]

Dibs on Quick Man!
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alc wrote:
Axelay

Umm, I would have to disagree on this one. I mean, I only played it for the first time earlier this year, but it was pretty bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alc wrote:
Without wanting to get too in-depth/off-topic, it plagued a few early games (Super R-Type, Gradius 3, and some others) but you just avoid them. I can't remember any of the games I've listed having show-stopping slowdown.

Requesting in-depth, off-topicness please. We can always use more technical (or otherwise) nerdiness.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The slowdown hits Gradius 3 pretty bad at times, but what people tend to forget is that the SNES port is the only playable version of the game. The arcade version (and subsequentially, the ports found on Gradius III & IV for the PS2 and Gradius Generations on PSP) bends you over the cabinet and sodomizes you with its difficulty in the most uncomfortable manner.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah. i'm willing to overlook slow-down in gradiusIIIsnes for the fact that i can actually clear the first stage.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Alc wrote:
Axelay

Umm, I would have to disagree on this one. I mean, I only played it for the first time earlier this year, but it was pretty bad.
I'll not hear such things! It's one of the most beautiful games on the SNES (it really pushes all the different modes and such), and it's far more playable than you might imagine on a first run. I didn't have it as a kid, so I'm not looking back through rose-tinted glasses, either. I'd encourage you to set aside an hour or so and give it another go (definitely on real hardware rather than emulation, too).

Swimmy wrote:
Requesting in-depth, off-topicness please. We can always use more technical (or otherwise) nerdiness.
Gradius 3 has a lot of slowdown, but as pointed out it's kind of necessary. I'm pretty sure the arcade version has some slowdown as well, incidentally, although the slowdown on the SNES port is certainly SNES-caused, and ends up being just a mildy helpful annoyance (though it's still a punishingly hard game). Super R-Type I haven't really played much, I remember the slowdown pretty much killed it for me (I have a suspicion it's not that good a game underneath anyway). I think Darius Twin also got a bit chuggy, Super Earth Defence Force suffered severely at times, Thunder Spirits is bad for it, Biometal too... I'm having trouble remembering any more as I don't have my SNES with me. Slowdown is present in most early SNES shmups, anyway.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't like axelay either, actually. the hit detection in the mode 7 stages is stupidly bad.

those stages exist mostly to be eye candy, anyway.
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