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Universal Flowering according to Koji Igarashi

 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject: Universal Flowering according to Koji Igarashi Reply with quote

So I've been playing a lot of Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance, aka Castlevania: Hakuya no Kyōsōkyoku (or "White Night Concerto"/"Concerto of the Midnight Sun"), which may or may not be a better title than Harmony of Dissonance, albeit equally oxymoronic. It's only fitting, however, because HoD is a pretty oxymoronic videogame, for better and, I guess, for worse.

ajutla wrote:
Also, for what it's worth.

About a year later, I still think it's my favorite of the Castlevanias. Igarashi's games tend to be well-crafted things that I play through once, appreciate, and don't ever touch again. I can switch Harmony on all the time, though. It has a real weightiness and complexity; the other games are almost too smooth."


Yeah, you know, HoD is fast becoming my favorite Castlevania of them all. Upon reflection, I decided that "oxymoronic" wasn't the best term to use, but it at least hinted at the idea I wanted to illustrate. It's ... dichotomous. Or multifaceted. Games like Symphony of the Night and Aria of Sorrow are very smooth, yes — single-minded, romantic, even pompously neo-classical. HoD is those things, too, but more than that it is baroque, coherently noisy, simultaneously futurist and "pastist" — perhaps even a little postmodern. It is the Universal Flowering of Castlevania.

ajutla wrote:
"One of the major features, 'they' say, of ancient Taoist thought, or some shit, is its ability to take into account various contradictory aspects of a thing — the ability to look at it, from so many angles, and say, 'Yeah. This thing is complex. It changes. It evolves.' It's the ability to focus on the small details, rather than the large, broad aspects; the ability to reconcile them and come to the heightened 'middle way' of understanding. If X implies that Y cannot be true, but Y is true anyway, you don't let it stress you out. You just take it in stride.

Well, I don't know much about that. I'm not going to claim to be mystical. I lack the self-discipline it takes to follow the Tao. Still, I’m going to say this anyway: Harmony of Dissonance is the embodiment of these principles. That's the way it feels."


I love this. This is almost exactly what I was thinking about just [last night], walking home after picking up a copy of the updated Final Fantasy IV for my GBA. Not quite in so much detail, though. I was unwrapping the box while I crossed through a parking lot and I whimsically tossed the plastic into the air — sort of a literal metaphor for "throwing caution to the wind," I guess. I wondered to myself, "Why did I just do that?" I mean, I'm not the sort of person who bothers to recycle and I'm no longer a vegetarian, but I still have a deep love and respect for nature, for Mother Earth. I sort of laughed under my breath and thought, heh, I'm such a nihilistic hippie. Or whatever. There are a lot of aspects to my personality that seem like they just shouldn't gel, but they do... They're me. I'm always thinking about "grey areas/congealing the superparadigm" (the "heightened 'middle way' of understanding"), or how Truth is so ... kaleidoscopic. Harmony of Dissonance is like that. HoD, to refer to another thread on [the insertcredit forums], is quite a Gemini. Everything about it reflects this. The multi-"layer" castle, Juste's appearance and abilities, the glorious music — everything. There is no chance that it just accidentally turned out that way. It's a work of genius.

Also posted here:
http://antitype.livejournal.com/411696.html
http://forums.insertcredit.com/viewtopic.php?p=72468#72468
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoD is definatly IGA's best game. It is also my current favorite Castlevania, just eeking out Rondo by millimeters. A while back we had a stupid list thread for top ten games which I put HoD on there which led into this split topic where I attempt to defend HoD. Also, this is kind of messed up, but on Tuesday I just started up a new game again. I think it is my 6th time through the game with Juste. I was attmepting to speed run it, but ... I left it on a counter top (not paused) for an unknown amount of time. When I set it down it was shortly over 1 hour and when I saved next I noticed it was well over 2.5 hours. So much for that.

Anyways, that LJ community kicks ass. I am going to join, is there rules for posting?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really not a fan of White Night Concerto, but I'm 100% sure that this is because I happen to have stumbled into the game the wrong way... twice.

I originally played the game in Japanese at its release. I got pretty far, but at some point I ended up at a spot where I couldn't figure out where to go next to progress. I would go around the castle in a circle, checking out every edge until I came across something, but nothing ever appeared and eventually my level got so high that I could kill most things without any challenge. I eventually just gave up on it.

I bought the game again when I found a used copy at Gamestop ($25 for a used game, ouch!). I started from the beginning and started making my way through the game. Eventually - either at an earlier point in the game or the exact same place - I got completely stuck again. This time I didn't allow myself to level up to abnormally high levels and instead I just put the game down and never touched it again.

Harmony of Dissonance is one of my least favorite Castlevania games and it all has to do with bottlenecks in the design that apparently only I am capable of stumbling upon.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harmony of Dissonance gets mad props for having a holographic universe.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Eventually - either at an earlier point in the game or the exact same place - I got completely stuck again.

You have the key to unlock the door. The first time I ran into this I felt stumped (a similar thing happen in AoS) and eventually had to as around. But it gave me time to really master Juste and his control. So, I kind of hated the game for not telling me what to do, for a really long time. It was not until I got over our disagreement and really played it that I fell in love with it. I have a save file that is at 199.8% with all the funature and all the magic books. I don't think I will do that again because it sucks a little of the fun out, but I can at least know that I have seen almost everything the game has to offer and still come back for more.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Anyways, that LJ community kicks ass. I am going to join, is there rules for posting?


Thanks! No rules, really, except for posting requests: I only ask that members post one at a time, so I can get through them nice and orderly. Some folks seem to have trouble understanding this.

It's been a pretty interesting community at times. Sure, I tolerate a few furries or Fanboy Gamer types around there, but most of them are just thoughtful people who play videogames, so I believe you'll feel at home there. Anyone in these forums is welcome to come by and join, or even just watch, if you'd like.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
HoD is definatly IGA's best game. It is also my current favorite Castlevania, just eeking out Rondo by millimeters.


why, matt, why??
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(incidentally, i joined the community too.)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I primarily enjoy Harmony of Dissonance for the compositional thoroughness of its soundtrack. I especially enjoy the theme that plays when you first enter the castle.

I do not however much like the game. After I figured out that there were TWO castles, I stopped caring. But then again, I haven't finished a Castlevania game since Symphony of the Night. And that, oddly enough, is the only Castlevania game I've ever finished (even if Dracula's Curse is actually my favorite of the series; never could quite master Dracula's final form).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
HoD is definatly IGA's best game. It is also my current favorite Castlevania, just eeking out Rondo by millimeters.


why, matt, why??

Because they are two different styles. Were a gun put to my head I would have to pick this one because it is of the non-action variety. Though, as a whole, I enjoy the action CV games more than the RPG ones, this one really shined above the others, and is much more adventure and exploration ortiend, which I enjoy a lot. There are a lot of elements to this. Really it only struck me on this past Tues.
seryogin wrote:
I do not however much like the game. After I figured out that there were TWO castles, I stopped caring.

Interesting. Why is this?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
seryogin wrote:
I do not however much like the game. After I figured out that there were TWO castles, I stopped caring.

Interesting. Why is this?


because it's contrived? it's there only to lengthen the game? it makes the map screen nigh unreadable? it seems thinly recycled from link to the past (see also: metroid prime 2)?

these are just my best guesses.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're so bitter Dess. Put on a happy face.

Actually I think it is an attempt to make the dual castle of SotN make sense. An attempt to rectify the sins of the past. If all else fails look to the subtitle of the game.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
seryogin wrote:
I do not however much like the game. After I figured out that there were TWO castles, I stopped caring.

Interesting. Why is this?


because it's contrived? it's there only to lengthen the game? it makes the map screen nigh unreadable? it seems thinly recycled from link to the past (see also: metroid prime 2)?

these are just my best guesses.


This is a good point.

I really wish there was just one castle in HoD. I'd probably like it a lot more.

Still, though, the game has it going on in many ways.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister Toups wrote:
dessgeega wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
seryogin wrote:
I do not however much like the game. After I figured out that there were TWO castles, I stopped caring.

Interesting. Why is this?


because it's contrived? it's there only to lengthen the game? it makes the map screen nigh unreadable? it seems thinly recycled from link to the past (see also: metroid prime 2)?

these are just my best guesses.


This is a good point.

I really wish there was just one castle in HoD. I'd probably like it a lot more.

Still, though, the game has it going on in many ways.


Metroid-style exploration games don't compell me in any way after the first hour or so. The only thing moving me to keep playing them after that is simple inertia.

Two castles, though. That was just too much. I was already ten hours in. Realizing that I had to do all that backtracking to open up all those sealed doors made me put off playing the game again, until it came to the point where I couldn't remember where I had to go next.

And so I stopped.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harmony of Dissonance just requires too much of me. I got to a point where I got stuck and eventually learned through a FAQ that I had to find two items to unlock a door somewhere.

This was after I spent hours traversing both castles looking for the one door I missed.

That was a long long time ago too, so if I were go back to it I'd have to start up a new game and pay close attention to everything as I went along. I don't really want to do that just yet.

Yeah, a single castle would have been much better than the multi-castle shit they pull on you in that game. It seems like they only made it that way as a response to the people who played Symphony of the Night and glitched about so they could get a higher percentage.

I mean, I played SotN all the way through because an inverted castle was more interesting than just a pallete swap with new enemies. The terrain you had to traverse was physically different and all that. And that second castle was like one huge secret. You could beat the first half of the game and not ever know the second half was there, which for reason rubs me the right way. Not quite so with Harmony.

I just realized I often like the artwork for Castlevania games more than the games themselves, save for the NES games. Dracula's Curse is my favorite of the series as well, even though I never made it past the haunted pirate ship or the swamp areas.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seryogin wrote:
Two castles, though. That was just too much. I was already ten hours in.

While I am going to say that technically you find out about the second castle very early on, they don't let you in on it until much later... but 10 hours? Hell, I have my 200% save game at abou 13 hours and that was from my first run.
Mr. Mechanical wrote:
I mean, I played SotN all the way through because an inverted castle was more interesting than just a pallete swap with new enemies. The terrain you had to traverse was physically different and all that. And that second castle was like one huge secret. You could beat the first half of the game and not ever know the second half was there, which for reason rubs me the right way. Not quite so with Harmony.

Right, but how would you feel if you designed a game that most people only played half of? I mean, this is why. Also, it is a bit more than just a pallet swap. A pallet swap can be done with just replacing colors. These have full different textures and backgrounds, there was a lot more work put into than just pallet swapping.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
I mean, I played SotN all the way through because an inverted castle was more interesting than just a pallete swap with new enemies. The terrain you had to traverse was physically different and all that. And that second castle was like one huge secret. You could beat the first half of the game and not ever know the second half was there, which for reason rubs me the right way. Not quite so with Harmony.

Yeah, but that's completely missing the point of why the castle in HoD has multiple layers. It's based on a different, albeit not entirely dissimilar, idea than SotN's inverted castle. I'll agree that the inverted terrain in addition to a palette swap seems a little more exciting than HoD's dual "layers", coming along at a point where we might have thought the game was near its end rather than interlocking itself with the already existing castle. I see a bunch of you saying HoD's second "layer" was a contrived cop-out and a cheap way of extending the gameplay, but this is even truer for SotN. And what's up with the inverted castle, anyway? I mean, why does it even exist, other than as a purely videogamey way of making the experience twice as long? The castle in HoD actually has a reason for being the way it is. There's an idea behind it, and it's a powerful idea that shines through in every aspect of the game.

As much as I love SotN, this is why I feel HoD is superior.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
seryogin wrote:
Two castles, though. That was just too much. I was already ten hours in.

While I am going to say that technically you find out about the second castle very early on, they don't let you in on it until much later... but 10 hours? Hell, I have my 200% save game at abou 13 hours and that was from my first run.
Mr. Mechanical wrote:
I mean, I played SotN all the way through because an inverted castle was more interesting than just a pallete swap with new enemies. The terrain you had to traverse was physically different and all that. And that second castle was like one huge secret. You could beat the first half of the game and not ever know the second half was there, which for reason rubs me the right way. Not quite so with Harmony.

Right, but how would you feel if you designed a game that most people only played half of? I mean, this is why. Also, it is a bit more than just a pallet swap. A pallet swap can be done with just replacing colors. These have full different textures and backgrounds, there was a lot more work put into than just pallet swapping.


Okay, maybe it wasn't ten hours. I don't remember how many it actually was. But it sure felt that long.

And I'm not trying to degrade Harmony of Dissonance here. It's a fine game, but it's the type of game that I really don't have the patience for any more.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay so pallete swap was a poor choice of words. My bad guys. Officially.

I'm just not as patient with these videogame things as I used to be. I was younger when I played Symphony of the Night, and less jaded.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It strikes me as so strange that time comes into this. I mean... they are not that long, but you will play RPGs.

So, have you guys played Casltevania: Bloodlines?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
It strikes me as so strange that time comes into this. I mean... they are not that long, but you will play RPGs.

I suppose I can understand the point about being jaded, sometimes. It's true that when SotN came along it was something fresh and completely new and amazing (particularly since I'd never played Rondo of Blood). To remain interested in a series that essentially replicates its template again and again with mostly thematic and aesthetic variations requires a certain kind of attention span and ... enthusiasm.

Then again, yeah, RPGs. Also, essentially, (lengthier) videogames that work from a template with mostly thematic and aesthetic variations. RPGs probably require more patience than any other genre.

Shapermc wrote:
So, have you guys played Casltevania: Bloodlines?

I've played it a few times, but never beyond the first few stages. I should put forth the effort to finish it some time. I'm generally much more interested in the "Metroidvania" games than the classic action games, but I do enjoy them all.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antitype wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
So, have you guys played Casltevania: Bloodlines?

I've played it a few times, but never beyond the first few stages. I should put forth the effort to finish it some time. I'm generally much more interested in the "Metroidvania" games than the classic action games, but I do enjoy them all.

I played it a handful of times on an emulator, but for completion sake I picked it up New in the Box (still shrink wrapped, but it was the re-release). And what is the point of getting a game if not to play it? Well, it is shockingly better than I remembered from the emulator and it is pretty damn good in a general sense. Castlevania Gaiden so to speak. It is an action game though, and I can usually spend much more time on a CV action game than an RPG one. It seems easy to find for about $5 - $8, I recommend you do.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
antitype wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
So, have you guys played Casltevania: Bloodlines?

I've played it a few times, but never beyond the first few stages. I should put forth the effort to finish it some time. I'm generally much more interested in the "Metroidvania" games than the classic action games, but I do enjoy them all.

I played it a handful of times on an emulator, but for completion sake I picked it up New in the Box (still shrink wrapped, but it was the re-release). And what is the point of getting a game if not to play it? Well, it is shockingly better than I remembered from the emulator and it is pretty damn good in a general sense. Castlevania Gaiden so to speak. It is an action game though, and I can usually spend much more time on a CV action game than an RPG one. It seems easy to find for about $5 - $8, I recommend you do.


Yeah, Bloodlines really isn't that bad. I remember playing it in a Funcoland a very long time ago.

Thing is, though, it didn't really feel like a Castlevania game. Though it's worth noting that Castlevania games never really feel the same across platforms. I mean, plying Aria of Sorrow didn't remind me at all of playing Dracula's Curse, which is why I really don't play Castlevania games anymore.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
It strikes me as so strange that time comes into this. I mean... they are not that long, but you will play RPGs.


Well, that's the thing. I don't really have patience for most RPGs either, outside of a few games like Dragon Quest or Skies of Arcadia. I'm being engaged in a different way with those games than any Castlevania. There are larger, more fleshed out narratives for me to keep in mind as I'm going about battling slimes in the woods or what have you.

Moving from place to place in Dragon Quest VIII is different than moving from one end of the castle to another in a modern day Castlevania because there is more purpose to it for me. I know that when I reach my destination stuff will happen that will engage me with the story, a way of keeping things fresh amidst all the repetitiveness that any of the Iga-vania games never really manages to capture, even with all this attention he pays to the storylines in his games.

It never really feels like there's anything going on with the story in a Castlevania. You wander around fighting monsters until you hit a spot where a couple people show up out of nowhere and speak a few lines of dialogue; then it's back to wandering around again for an hour. It is essentially the same with an RPG, yet it feels more paper thin with Castlevania for some reason. Perhaps it has to do with pacing?

And yeah, Bloodlines is a completely different game, aside from the name and characters and such. It's stage based too, so I know I'll have more patience with it because I know that a stage is finite; it will only take five to ten minutes at the most to get through. I can play it in small chunks if I wish, much like an RPG.
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