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on time and indy games, the playing and writing thereof

 
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: on time and indy games, the playing and writing thereof Reply with quote

Just some ramble-y thoughts, and/or existentialist wingeing I'd like to know if other people feel the same way about.

I've heard, and experience, that it's a part of the human condition that you always feel like you have less free time now than you did in years past, but you're sanguine about managing to have more time in the future. Right now I'm feeling that most with Indyish games; I'd like to get really entrenched in a game writing (and playing) community (even beyond the fun I have at Glorious Trainwrecks) but I"m not sure where to go, how to find the right time and place to do that. In fact, I find it hard just to keep up with the cool stuff coming out, and where to go for that. AuntiePixelante has a fairly nice pace to it, but then there's stuff like TIGsource and GSW etc etc.

And of course with other people's indy stuff, so often there's that case of "oh, damn, they go to my idea first", like recently with omniludicon... or in general other developers seem more able to raise the ante in terms of sounds and graphics and level design.

I wonder if this is how people who are fairly serious about, say, poetry feel... unsure of their talents, wondering if even the other great stuff that's out there will really strike it big. There's SO MUCH STUFF! You kind of hope to be able to develop.... I dunno, some bit of microfame, but really at best it's nanofame (i.e. "on the Internet, everyone is famous to 15 people") You think of the games that just rocked your world as a kid, the Marios or Sonics or whatever, and you wonder if there's any way in hell to have *anything* at ALL like that in an indy vein...

Then again there's that feeling of Make the Game You Want To Play, but of course your standards are probably going to be higher than that... like, my manspider game, that's one of the few titles I have where I might actually come back to it, it's fun to see how well you can do. ANd when I think of what games I REALLY highly regard, like Fantastic Contraption--- that was great intense fun for a week or so, but now I'd at most skim other people's stuff, and most games are lucky to get even that kind of attention.

Which is where other aspects come into play: i"m poor as a level designer, I tend to want to make fun w/ mechanics and "novel interactions", and too often all I do is these little 2 or 3 hour game jams -- and most of those are "game gets gradually harder and harder 'til you die" retro setups... no new playable content comes out as a reward. Possibly some games would just be better broken up into Waves or something, a less-fine-grained quantifaction of "how far the player got" than mere score or timer value.

And then there might even be some unrecognized issues , where the "Indy game" community uses games factory or whatever for downloadable games, but maybe my thinking (both in gameplay and audience reach) is in casual and/or browser based games. And I don't know if my core go-to language, Processing, is up to the task, or if I should push harder and learn Flash etc... and if I should get a Masters degree in Digital Media. Which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

So, thats it. I know this is a whole spew of semi-coherent and whiny and self-obsessed stuff, but I'd love to hear any suggestions on where to take this...
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this should be in the development forum?

In any case, I do wonder why there aren't more indie game collectives. Not in the Glorious Trainwreck sense, where people get together to make a bunch of individual games; rather, I'm thinking something more like an actual game development studio, with a team of people working on a single title.

The answer that seems to make the most sense is that indie games do tend to be attached to the idea of Making a Name for Yourself, in that this is how people realize an unsullied version of their personal vision (and as you mention, the notion of "fame" plays some role in this). It's also a lot more difficult to work as a team than people first think and often requires somebody who specializes in production or management, which doesn't fit well with the ethos of the DIY videogame, especially if the person doing the product management isn't the main programmer.

Sorry to focus on team vs. individual development; I really feel though that this is an interesting dichotomy and I would really like to see more demo scene-style groups operating in game development.
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Maybe this should be in the development forum?

Yeah, I was on the fence about that... in part, there is this matter of catching up with the games that are out there (and also I wanted more interested people to see the thread) Should we move it? (Can I do it or is that a moderator function?)
Quote:
In any case, I do wonder why there aren't more indie game collectives. Not in the Glorious Trainwreck sense, where people get together to make a bunch of individual games; rather, I'm thinking something more like an actual game development studio, with a team of people working on a single title.

Yeah, it's a cool idea!
A few thoughts:
1. getting people to collaborate is hard work. Coordination, communication, egos, slackers... I suspect the complexity increases exponentially with additional people, especially if they're collaborating online
2. It seems like there is a fair amount of collaboration, but it's usually with 2 or 3 personal specialties... artwork and sound in particular.

For 2, a while back I asked, but didn't get a solid answer, what specialties are in large or short supply in terms of collaborations... it seems like there would be
A. big concept people
B. coders
C. level designers
D. artists
E. musicians

I'm ok at A, pretty good at B (though again I"m using odd tools -- my fondness for doing, say, engines from scratch might be holding back the other parts), I think totally raw at C, passable (in an indy way) at D, and have some interesting ideas on how to do E.

I think personally I might be too shy about C... Ilike how for school (I think) Dess did some levels in Smash Bros, that seemed like a fascinating exercise. I should hunker down and, I dunno, do stuff in omniludicon and the like, and not worry if I'm treading old ground, just learn what makes a compelling game with an existing engine. It's probably constraining that I think almost only in terms of Processing and Klik N Play...

Quote:
Sorry to focus on team vs. individual development; I really feel though that this is an interesting dichotomy and I would really like to see more demo scene-style groups operating in game development.

Yeah.
What sites seem most likely to foster something like that? TIGsource? Poppenkast? Glorious Trainwrecks? Here?
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parkbench
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been dying to assemble a motley crew of ambitious game-people for awhile now. I have made numerous failed attempts at getting one started, with the intent of pushing the envelope with as little resources but as much passion as possible. I want to be part of a group that really believes in what it's doing and can work together to create a cohesive style and approach.

I am not a programming man so much as an idea man. I am certain that with enough time and effort I could struggle to get my own game off the ground, but with a collective, it would have a much healthier incubation, and these ideas could actually be put into action, worked over and over again, bounced around, and transformed until we had a solid concept. I am not, for example, too shabby at some pixel design, but bringing my creations to life (animation) has been a wall I've run into over and over again. If there were a team I could work with to call upon for help, I know this could actually happen instead of being a distant fantasy of mine*.

So to facilitate all this I would suggest swapping e-mails, starting an e-mail list, whipping up a site and probably an irc channel. Then we talk and talk and talk and get to know each other and hope something happens.

*in that sense an interesting approach would be individually-driven games, where team members are solicited to help (so there might be multiple concomitant projects in this vein), and full team efforts which involve everyone.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you need a designer, Purplechair has a million good ideas for game designs.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so is the issue (at least in some cases) a lot of chefs and not so many line cooks?
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno.

Other than Trainwrecks, most of my online experience with developers comes from the Atari 2600 scene, which had WAY too many people with ideas and not enough programmers.

The best were the would be idea-men with screen mockups that were often vaguely atari-like but probably not actually possible given the hardware limitations.

The situation there has shifted somewhat, since there's this nifty program called Batari BASIC that is essentially really clever Basic->ASM macros, along with some precanned "kernals" and other API-ish things, so now you don't need hardcore assembly skills to make up something, though it's limited.

I'm still trying to get an idea of what it's like for artists and musicians as contributors...

I was also musing a bit on what's different about garage bands and super-indy film makers and smallscale indy game designers. I think there are two big areas of distinction:
1. amount of "stuff"... most movies are of a standardized-ish length (either full length or a short), most songs fall in a certain length range. A game is a game, but can have a lot more or less content in it. (Kind of similar to the "hours of gameplay" metric issue)
2. size of barrier to entry -- it's kind of low, at least for certain kinds of games. But very high for fully fleshed out, 3Dish games...
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
If you need a designer, Purplechair has a million good ideas for game designs.


If you need a cook, I can help out there too.
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point I don't know enough of what purplechair has posted to know if this is serious or kind of a teasing joke. Do you have any links full of game idea goodness?
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a link under each of my posts, but it's not full. I'm working on it, though?

Ack, I feel like I should say something insightful now! I guess, if you were feeling generous, you might say that I design indie games, but I don't have a much to say about actually making them. I've never had the tech or art skills to make something worthwhile on my own, and I've never had the patience to explain to people why they should shut up and do what I say, so making it big on the indie scene has always appeared... unrealistic for me. It's not something I've ever cared much for, because I'm too much of a realist.

As far as I'm concerned, it's an organisational issue. If people are going to get together and do things for free, or whatever, they usually expect to have an equal share in the power, and stuff - especially in the whole 'free software' communal culture that indie game-makers are kinda part of. I don't know about other people, but I can't really work like that. Somewhere down the line, I need some kind of agreed-upon 'command chain', just so that arguments can be settled without people acting like babies.

Regarding the original post, I can't say I'm ever unsure of my talents. The worst that happens is when I have a few little ideas bouncing round that can't quite fit together, but since my designs will never be made, it's no big deal to just put them aside and start on something totally different instead. Of course, the cost of this freedom is that I have almost nothing to back up these arrogant pronouncements, which makes me sound like a dick. Hi!

I have a few other vaguely-related things to say, but they'll have to wait another week or so. It's potentially quite embarassing.
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And really, when it comes to making a game that has the kind of impact that Mario or Sonic had, you've got to bear in mind that those games are positively ancient now, and the bar has been raised a lot since then. So if impact is your goal, you need something that innovates without being too complicated, and can fight its corner graphically (and musically, etc) as well. Otherwise, assholes like me will just say "Yeah, it's okay, but [WEAKEST PART] is pretty weak!"

You're competing for people's attention... not just against other indie games, but huge companies that throw millions of dollars on this stuff. It's not impossible, but you have to be focused and punchy.
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come to think of it, none of that was terribly insightful.
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KinokoFry
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not really sure how to directly 'answer' the original post because as you said, it's just a mesh of ideas.

But in terms of working in teams at least, I see the most success with people who each have very definite roles. There can be flexibility and a discussion of ideas, but ultimately, this person is writing it, this person is programming, this person is doing music. I think this applies to every area, really. It's difficult to have two creative types both trying to work with the same level of power.

I think it's possible, if two people have good people skills, a good pre-existing knowledge of each other, and even then, concede their power in certain ways. Even within the same basic role, after all ideas have been discussed and thrown into the pot, it's only going to work if the people are genuinely prepared to step down and let the other make that particular decision.

This is all amplified by doing things online. Without being able to be physically in the same room with each other, the idea of having very clearly defined roles is even more necessary.

But, ultimately, I think any game-making team has the best results with each person having clearly defined functions and roles to begin with, with perhaps a good attitude for flexibility and suggestions during times of discussion.

I'm not terribly experienced at all this myself, I've only actually finished ONE game and that was my first. I've half made a couple more since then however ALL of this has been working on my own. I prefer the idea of doing most things myself, but at the same time, I have a good idea these days of what I can accomplish on my own and which games are just too ambitious/large to be completed without getting other people to do things like music/animation for me.

But I do think this idea applies to all things. You cannot have 8 people steering a ship.
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Mindless
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Indy Games Reply with quote

Making any game is a hard task. Bringing a group together, especially over the net can lead to an instant breakdown in the project. I've worked on projects before where the original creators have brought in external staff to make the game and then they've run off with the source code and released it first.

The easiest way is to follow the examples of the pioneers of gaming and form a small trusted team of no more than five people and make your game in flash or mmf. This allows you to quickly prototype your concept and publish it to the wider internet community to judge. If it succeeds, you can make a more complete version for the sequel ; p.

To make a good game, all you really need is an artist, a coder and a lot of free time IMO. Even if, as kirkjerk says, you make a simple game based around a mechanic which get's harder and harder towards the end, it's experience and a strong proof of concept. I wouldn't expect to make the next Bangai-O in a week, so don't try.

What would be interesting would be if someone made a major website for the development and progression of indie games. It seems there's very little out there for indie game designers to put forward their ideas to a community and have them developed, similar to moddb but without the mods. Anyone fancy a project? Very Happy .
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This should really be in the development forum!

Also we need some coders for our game Dirty Larry.
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
This should really be in the development forum!

Also we need some coders for our game Dirty Larry.

mea culpa! can someone move it?

and what about dirty larry?
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