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What's this? A Doctor Mario thread?
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
As for not making things that are good and original, they made a controller you can wave around and pretend like you're playing tennis which has taken the world by storm. What do you want, jam on it?

Wuh? I bought the Tennis one! I'm not going to buy this one. I'm not blaming Nintendo for releasing something I don't want to buy. Plenty of companies do that all the time and I don't care, I'm just pointing out that this happens to be one of those games.

Regardless, the assertion still stands that they're not making things that are good and original. They did a lot more of that in the N64 days, and now it seems like they can only do one or the other. At least the DS is still awesome!

-Wes
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
As for not making things that are good and original, they made a controller you can wave around and pretend like you're playing tennis which has taken the world by storm. What do you want, jam on it?

That's gotta be someone's internet fetish.

I know 10 is just hyperbole.. in terms of literally how many versions:
NES
GB
GBA in Puzzle whatever
N64 (w/ four players)
GC (Japan Only Puzzle Collection)
and now Wii.

The whole "established game" issue is a toughie. Some games stick around because they're good and balanced, but after a while a certain nostalgia and habit comes into play.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Regardless, the assertion still stands that they're not making things that are good and original. They did a lot more of that in the N64 days, and now it seems like they can only do one or the other. At least the DS is still awesome!

What are they doing that's original but not good?

In the N64, they kind of HAD to be original and think things out in 3D.

I'm trying to think of what was new for Nintendo...
Mario 64 was new and pretty great.
Z;OoT really wasn't as radical an update... I played that game w/o playing much of the first game, and going back to the first game it's crazy how similar it is
Dunno if Mario Kart 64 was new or just logical
Mario Party, Smash Bros were pretty new

GC had Pikmin new, and Metroid Prime, though that's a little less Nintendo-y than the rest.

Wii has Wii Sports which is crazy new.
Excite Truck was pretty grand.

So I dunno! On the one hand yeah, there's a lot of coasting.
On the other hand Nintendo is in a position to do a special kind of coasting that no one else can really do, and the results are usually lovely so I don't mind so much...
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
Are you sure it's not regional?


we have been crushing peopel from japan all ngiht
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
I know 10 is just hyperbole.. in terms of literally how many versions:
NES
GB
GBA in Puzzle whatever
N64 (w/ four players)
GC (Japan Only Puzzle Collection)
and now Wii.


You forgot Warioware, the NES Classic version, and Tetris vs. Dr. Mario for SNES. Also the Virtual Console version, but I'm not sure if that was released or not.

-Wes
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are new modes and a wii mote waggiling version of dr mario
but who gives a shit
ONLINE PLAY thats not on a lame fucking emulator

heeavveenn
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also the menu music is wonderful

edit: wes stop arguing with yourself about what nintendo has done and play some dr mario online
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daphaknee wrote:
there are new modes and a wii mote waggiling version of dr mario
but who gives a shit
ONLINE PLAY thats not on a lame fucking emulator

heeavveenn

Yeah, I don't play many games online, but the few that I do (Warcraft, Gears, and the occasional Halo 3) let me play with my friends without calling them and trading 16 a digit code with them. And really, if I'm not playing with my friends I'd honestly rather not play online. Still, if you're into it more power to you!

-Wes
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its hard to find people who are really good at dr mario, they'rea ll in japants

now i can play with them easily i dont carea bout my friends that much except for cycle because its time i play cycle i game i can win
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the 16 digit codes are so weird, such a user hostile thing for NIntendo to do

DAPH I KNOW YOU DONT LIKE 4 PLAY(HEH)-ER DR MARIO BUT DOES THIS WII VERSION HAVE 4 PLAYERS OR NOT SO MUCH OR WHAT
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
the 16 digit codes are so weird, such a user hostile thing for NIntendo to do

(Psst, Nintendo only cares about online play as far as using it as a bullet point on the back of the box gets people to buy it)

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
kirkjerk wrote:
the 16 digit codes are so weird, such a user hostile thing for NIntendo to do

(Psst, Nintendo only cares about online play as far as using it as a bullet point on the back of the box gets people to buy it)

Well, that begs the question of whether it's easier for them to do #s instead of codes, and why.

I always thought it was some kind of poorly thought-out anti-child-predator and/or general obscenity and what not stuff but I dunno.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait, so what did nintendo do with the n64 that was so original? most of their n64 library is 3d versions of their 2d franchises.

also, how does this fit into your deeply considered analysis?
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no theres not four player, four player dr mario is DUMB
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daphaknee wrote:
no theres not four player, four player dr mario is DUMB


better than 4 player panel de pon! that shit gets too crazy too fast.

but 4 player (well usually 3 player) is kind of nice.
we're not as good as you so everyone just gets parallel play going and the aggression is a bit difused.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
wait, so what did nintendo do with the n64 that was so original? most of their n64 library is 3d versions of their 2d franchises.

also, how does this fit into your deeply considered analysis?

you're talking to Wes right?

what does a mundane Dr Mario 64 video have to do with, err, what analysis?
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
wait, so what did nintendo do with the n64 that was so original? most of their n64 library is 3d versions of their 2d franchises.


OH DESS

Mario 64 is nothing like Super Mario World. It plays so differently! It's like no other game that came before it. Also, some other shit

Listen to this new cartoon character I just invented. FRANKEINSTIEN
Who can draw me a picture of what he would look like?
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
what does a mundane Dr Mario 64 video have to do with, err, what analysis?


because he's complaining about nintendo rehashing old games on new platforms, dr. mario being the catalyst, and claiming that nintendo did original stuff on the n64. yes, i'm addressing wes.

and yes, i know that super mario 64 is worlds apart from what came before it. but the wii remote is as much of a step forward as the analog stick was. and there's as much rehash in nintendo's n64 catalog as there is in their wii one. the n64 controller is the ugly, three-pronged mess it is because nintendo was afraid of their own innovation.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to ignore the real pressing issue here; to wit, what do you think of my idea FRANKEINSTIEN
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whatever clever point you're trying to make is just way over my head, harvey babes.
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:


. the n64 controller is the ugly, three-pronged mess it is because nintendo was afraid of their own innovation.


i love that controller it feels so fucking good

anyway kirk why would you want to ease up on the aggression, 2 player dr mario you know where all the hate/mess is comign from and you know exactly who is going to taste your revenge
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
kirkjerk wrote:
what does a mundane Dr Mario 64 video have to do with, err, what analysis?


because he's complaining about nintendo rehashing old games on new platforms, dr. mario being the catalyst, and claiming that nintendo did original stuff on the n64. yes, i'm addressing wes.


No, no, no. This post was the catalyst:

Cycle wrote:
i had a grand time with the following n64 exclusive games:

mario 64
zelda: oot
zelda: mm
bomberman 64
goldeneye 64
body harvest
space station silicon valley
wave race 64
f-zero 64
blast corps
bettle/hsv adventure racing
doom 64
mystical ninja/goemon 1 & 2
mario kart 64
mischief makers
yoshi story
pilotwings 64
pokemon snap

man there are just too many good games to list. and there were also plenty of games that weren't classics but still well worth playing, for trying interesting things and what not.

WHAT A GREAT SYSTEM.


Note that Dr. Mario is not in that list! Also, note that I already sort of regret buying Dr. Mario for the N64 (as much as one can regret spending $50 8 years ago) and I don't need to regret buying it for the Wii.

And the "innovative" part of my comment about Nintendo making "either good games or innovative games" is sort of targeted at Wii Sports. Sure it's super as something to play when non-gamers come over, but I'd never in a million years play it by myself, and once we got past the cool technology my gamer friends all graduated to something that's actually competitive.

You could make the argument that Wii Sports isn't meant to be a single player game, but the two really don't have to be exclusive. Rock Band meets the same multiplayer prerequisite without being totally fucking lame in single player. And this, uhh, sort of makes Wii Sports not a good game in comparison.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm pretty dissapointed it doesn't have four player, i got my wii to play games with lots of people!

also the n64 and its controller were great.

i'd rather play wiisports than rock band or guitar hero, i got sick of those games in like a week when i didn't have friends over to play them.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*cough* I really liked the Saturn analog wheel controller they put out for NiGHTS, actually. Comfortable like silken sheets on my tiny little baby stump hands.

The n64 controller always felt really awkward to me, like the d-pad and the thumbstick were having a feud over the thumbstick's custody of the Z button. And they weren't talking anymore.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's like a Frankenstien's monster who has a massive brain

God damn it
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
And the "innovative" part of my comment about Nintendo making "either good games or innovative games" is sort of targeted at Wii Sports. Sure it's super as something to play when non-gamers come over, but I'd never in a million years play it by myself


NOT ENOUGH ORCS FOR YOU, HUH.

if gamers really have such narrow and boring tastes in games, then i welcome "non-gaming" as the new gaming.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really enjoy non-games these days, but mainly because I love gaming with my friends and family.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
SuperWes wrote:
And the "innovative" part of my comment about Nintendo making "either good games or innovative games" is sort of targeted at Wii Sports. Sure it's super as something to play when non-gamers come over, but I'd never in a million years play it by myself


NOT ENOUGH ORCS FOR YOU, HUH.

if gamers really have such narrow and boring tastes in games, then i welcome "non-gaming" as the new gaming.


No, no, no. I love non-gaming! I'm currently playing CrossworDS for the DS, and I firmly believe that Clubhouse games should be in everyone's DS library. I also happen to believe that the DS is the best system of all time!

What I don't believe is that Wii Sports had to be a shallow as fuck mini-game collection that's only worthwhile in multiplayer in order to be innovative. Innovation does not have to equal shallow games that never reach any further than novelty. Did you know that it's possible to have an innovative game that actually has a story? You might not think so if you only payed attention to Wii games! It's also possible to make multiplayer games that are competitive in nature and/or have some sort of depth in single player without putting Orcs/Mario in! Rock Band proves it! It's also more immersive than Wii Sports AND has controls closer to its source material than Wii Sports! Imagine that!

I'm only using Rock Band as an example here. I don't think it's the epitome of non-games, but it does so much of what Wii Sports tries to do without sacrificing its completeness as a game.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What, Wii Sports isn't shallow

what do you want, unlockable statuettes and king hippo
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't really understand your problems with WiiSports. You want to have a story mode or something? What? Also it's quite competitive when I play with my friends, and I play the WII FIT stuff on my own pretty often to see which ridiculous age I now am. I mean, it felt like a pretty tight package to me, even though some of the games could have been executed better, but hey, it's a pack-in and was one of the earliest games. Wii-Sports 2 should be pretty great.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daphaknee wrote:
dessgeega wrote:


. the n64 controller is the ugly, three-pronged mess it is because nintendo was afraid of their own innovation.


i love that controller it feels so fucking good

anyway kirk why would you want to ease up on the aggression, 2 player dr mario you know where all the hate/mess is comign from and you know exactly who is going to taste your revenge

BECAUSE I *LIKE* MY FRIENDS
or, I like my friends wife. and want her to keep playing.

IF YOU WERE REALLY GOOD YOU'D PLAY DR MARIO 4 PLAYER AND *ALWAYS* KNOW WHO YOU WERE SENDING SHIT TOO.

It's really hard to judge "amount of innovative games" on N64 vs Wii for two reasons:
1. The Wii is in the middle of its life span so it's not gonna be fair to judge
2. nostalgia, and how it's hard to judge games when they're right there in your face. I'm not sure if I'd recognize a Space Station Silicon Valley or Blast Corps if the moral equivalent (innovation wise) were to show up today. (Blast Corps is in desperate need of a sequel)

BY THE WAY I RESENT THE IDEA THAT DR. MARIO ON N64 WAS NOT INNOVATION. IT WAS THE INNOVATION OF FOUR PLAYERS!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk if it makes you feel better, the other game mode in the wii version is four player. i cant remember what it's called. or what it's about. check wikipedia!
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the flash mode or the wiimote mode?
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wes, i don't understand what the term "non-game" means, why wii sports is considered one, and why it's necessary to make a distinction at all.

i also find rock band really shallow and tiresome.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
wes, i don't understand what the term "non-game" means, why wii sports is considered one, and why it's necessary to make a distinction at all.

i also find rock band really shallow and tiresome.

What the hell? You're the one who brought up the term in the first place! I said that my "gamer friends" prefer games that are more competitive and you said that they "MUST HAVE ORCS!" I use this term "gamer friend" to describe anyone who is my friend and already knows how to use a controller with more than two buttons. Maybe it's not really the difference between game and non-game and more about whether people are more interesting in emulating being in a bowling alley vs. being in a rock band.

But if you want to break it down I guess I'd say the Wii is a much better system than the N64 that happens to have far worse games - er - software.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obviously if you guys were just playing dr mario with me this dumb arguement could be avoided entirely
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
Yeah, I don't really understand your problems with WiiSports. You want to have a story mode or something? What? Also it's quite competitive when I play with my friends, and I play the WII FIT stuff on my own pretty often to see which ridiculous age I now am. I mean, it felt like a pretty tight package to me, even though some of the games could have been executed better, but hey, it's a pack-in and was one of the earliest games. Wii-Sports 2 should be pretty great.

Yeah, I really didn't have any problems with Wii Sports until lately and the problems have really only come up because when I bought my Wii I liked Wii Sports and gave it a free pass despite being nothing but shallow novelty. I did this because, hey, it was free and it showed the potential of the system. Here we are, two and a half years later, and that potential still hasn't really been tapped. More and more I get the feeling that the controller is more of a gimmic than an advancement.

-Wes

EDIT: So I realized I got "non-game" and "casual game" mixed up above. Sorry about that!
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Here we are, two and a half years later, and that potential still hasn't really been tapped. More and more I get the feeling that the controller is more of a gimmic than an advancement.

The Wiimote plus Nunchuck seems like pretty close to a superset of, say, the GC, and it's doing some new, game-solid things...

GC and Wii nunchuck share:
analog stick, crosspad

GC has 4 well differentiated ergonomic buttons, 2 scrunchy triggers, Z and start
Wii has 2 buttons, 2 not scrunchy triggers, a Z-ish button, and this plus/minus/home thing and inconsistency about what pause should be

GC has an anlog nub
Wii has a laser pointer mode (that you HAVE to use just to navigate the main damn screen, just for the sake of making you do it) which is about as useful as the DS touchscreen, Kart/excite truck like sense tilting, which I would say is NOT a gimmick, and then shake detection, which is a bit gimmicky, and then the Wii sports usage, which is a bit gimmicky.

So I dunno, it can be used gratuitously, and its various functions are more modal (i.e. it's generally not graceful to slip from Excite Truck like manuevering to laser pointing, etc) but I think it can be worth while. I guess Wes point in, are the new functions more of a distraction from the main gamingness? If you see "traditional" controller paradigms as being simpler for most gaming, then Nintendo is in a lose/lose.... either a game like Twilight Princess totally can be played fine without it and its just a gimmick, or a game is made around it and suffers for it. I think a game like Mario Galaxies got it fairly right, for reasons other people around here have mentioned.
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The word gimmick is used in strange ways in these discussions.
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
The Wiimote plus Nunchuck seems like pretty close to a superset of, say, the GC, and it's doing some new, game-solid things...

GC and Wii nunchuck share:
analog stick, crosspad

GC has 4 well differentiated ergonomic buttons, 2 scrunchy triggers, Z and start
Wii has 2 buttons, 2 not scrunchy triggers, a Z-ish button, and this plus/minus/home thing and inconsistency about what pause should be

GC has an anlog nub
Wii has a laser pointer mode (that you HAVE to use just to navigate the main damn screen, just for the sake of making you do it) which is about as useful as the DS touchscreen, Kart/excite truck like sense tilting, which I would say is NOT a gimmick, and then shake detection, which is a bit gimmicky, and then the Wii sports usage, which is a bit gimmicky.

So I dunno, it can be used gratuitously, and its various functions are more modal (i.e. it's generally not graceful to slip from Excite Truck like manuevering to laser pointing, etc) but I think it can be worth while. I guess Wes point in, are the new functions more of a distraction from the main gamingness? If you see "traditional" controller paradigms as being simpler for most gaming, then Nintendo is in a lose/lose.... either a game like Twilight Princess totally can be played fine without it and its just a gimmick, or a game is made around it and suffers for it. I think a game like Mario Galaxies got it fairly right, for reasons other people around here have mentioned.


You're right that the Wii is capable of more traditional games and that these games are pretty good, but my argument is that Nintendo is either making good games or innovative games, but for some reason, never the twain shall meet. It's like Nintendo is taking its top designers, having them come up with great ideas, then moving them off of the project before the ideas have time to gel as a complete experience. Then they're putting the B teams on their existing franchises and letting them go wild, giving them the time they need to really do something worthwhile, but constricting their designs by forcing them to rely on existing characters and design templates.

I also disagree with the assertion that the Wii Pointer is the same thing as a DS touch-based menu system. The DS has tactile feedback when you select something. You actually press on something and something happens. It's like a screen full of labeled buttons. The Wii has you selecting icons with a light gun. For evidence, put the Wii controller in a anyone's hands for the first time and have them select something from the menu. They'll inevitably flail around the screen until they happen upon the right icon. Do the same with the DS and you'll see that they can select the right thing first time every time. Incidentally, if you do the same thing with a controller the confusion will come with which button to press instead of how to highlight the right button. In essence, with the Wii they've made the D Pad more complicated instead of the buttons.

Like the menu, Excite Truck and Mario Kart suffer from the same lack of tactile feedback. Yes, it's more immersive than a control pad, but it's also less effective, more importantly, it's significantly less immersive than a wheel that's strapped to your coffee table. The same type of wheel that's been around since the N64 days...

Mario Galaxy is a good hint of something that could be both deep and innovative, but, to stick with the theory above, it's like Nintendo put the A team on it and then handed it over to the B team to have them finish it and the opportunities that the A team had set up for them were just way over their heads. The E3 demo showed potential for the pointer and character to exist as seperate characters, both of which you're in control of, interacting with each other and the environment through each of the player's hands. But in the end it just became the same thing as the other 3D mario games, but with the number of moves scaled back a bit and the wiimote interactions limited to a few gimmic levels. Any interesting interactions between the player, the pointer, and the environment are limited to playing in two-player, with the second player relegated to a position that is, by the nature of the drop-in, drop-out implementation, inconsequential. It could have been so more.

And that's kind of where the Wii is right now. It's got so much potential, but nobody with the right combination of talent, time, and money seem to be working on it.

EDIT:
Mr Mustache wrote:
The word gimmick is used in strange ways in these discussions.

I'm using the word gimmic (Misspelled even! Sorry about that!) to describe some sort of hook that sounds cool and gets you interested but never reaches beyond its premise to become a complete experience.
EDIT2: The webster definition would be this: to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. In order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. In the case of Wii Sports they're taking games that would be worthless with a pad and buttons, slapping motion controls on them, and putting out a strong marketing message targetted at people who don't like games or have been jaded by the industry's output.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
You're right that the Wii is capable of more traditional games and that these games are pretty good, but my argument is that Nintendo is either making good games or innovative games, but for some reason, never the twain shall meet. It's like Nintendo is taking its top designers, having them come up with great ideas, then moving them off of the project before the ideas have time to gel as a complete experience.

So by good, you mean... like fully realized? Like the opposite of your meaning of good isn't bad, per se, just not fully done?

Wii Sports isn't "bad", but I can see it as seeming limited. I'm not sure about other implementations of Nintendo you'd consider innovative but not "good".

Quote:
I also disagree with the assertion that the Wii Pointer is the same thing as a DS touch-based menu system.

Good, because I didn't say that, I said "about as useful" Wink And I'm going to argue, better in some ways...
Quote:
The DS has tactile feedback when you select something. You actually press on something and something happens. It's like a screen full of labeled buttons. The Wii has you selecting icons with a light gun. For evidence, put the Wii controller in a anyone's hands for the first time and have them select something from the menu. They'll inevitably flail around the screen until they happen upon the right icon. Do the same with the DS and you'll see that they can select the right thing first time every time.

I see what you mean about the immediacy of the DS "click" vs. a Wiimote.
But I think you have to grant, in terms of interaction with any part of the screen quickly, it's closer to the DS touch screen than the old "move the cursor with the joystick" ... even though thanks to the difficulty of true calibration, an onscreen cursor is still pretty much required.

And while the DS interaction is more intuitive for button pressing (and I think you're putting too much stock in "intuitive for the newbie" vs "good for gaming), and superior for, say, selecting and moving units in a RTS game, there's something more satisfying in a Ghost Squad-like aiming and shooting game w/ a Wiimote; with a DS, it's almost TOO easy, and less of game because of the kinetics of it. (Or think of the the ghostbusters-like tractor beam of elebits! you could get 75% of the interaction but only about 25% of the 'feel' with a DS stylys)

Quote:
Incidentally, if you do the same thing with a controller the confusion will come with which button to press instead of how to highlight the right button. In essence, with the Wii they've made the D Pad more complicated instead of the buttons.

Yeah, currently the use of buttons on the Wiimote is in a kind of ugly state... when to use the thumb, when the trigger, when both, you see all 3 used for different screens and different games, not to mention the (to me, bizarre) decision to drop the well known "Start" for home (which will kind of pause a game in a rough way) and (+) and (-) with (+) most often meaning pause, but not always...

It reminds me a lot of the early days of the SNES pad, with the button salad of Super Mario World. Finally the GC did a GREAT job compromising w/ well-differentiated buttons that were still crosspad-ish, and in some ways the Wii-mote is a regression in that field.

Quote:
Like the menu, Excite Truck and Mario Kart suffer from the same lack of tactile feedback. Yes, it's more immersive than a control pad, but it's also less effective, more importantly, it's significantly less immersive than a wheel that's strapped to your coffee table. The same type of wheel that's been around since the N64 days...


Innovation is at least 1/3 the mainstreaming of stuff, IMO. Sure, N64 might've ripped of some 3D0 prototype controller, and technically analog sticks go back to the Apple II and Vectrex, and some older Atari systems had 4 controller ports, but that doesn't mean the N64 wasn't innovative in bringing that stuff to the mainstream. Wheels that can push back ARE cool, but dorky, and special purpose. So by getting 1/2 to 2/3 of the feel of that w/ the mainstream controller (admittedly the optional plastic wheel cuts this argument a bit) Nintendo is still breaking new ground.

Quote:
Mario Galaxy is a good hint of something that could be both deep and innovative, but, to stick with the theory above, it's like Nintendo put the A team on it and then handed it over to the B team to have them finish it and the opportunities that the A team had set up for them were just way over their heads. The E3 demo showed potential for the pointer and character to exist as seperate characters, both of which you're in control of, interacting with each other and the environment through each of the player's hands.


I don't know much about the demo. I wonder why Nintendo didn't go that route? Maybe they ended up not LIKING the kind of dual attention thing. (I forget, could 1 player Mario still fire off things w/ the pointer, or did it NEED player 2?)
Quote:

And that's kind of where the Wii is right now. It's got so much potential, but nobody with the right combination of talent, time, and money seem to be working on it.
EDIT:
Mr Mustache wrote:
The word gimmick is used in strange ways in these discussions.

I'm using the word gimmic (Misspelled even! Sorry about that!) to describe some sort of hook that sounds cool and gets you interested but never reaches beyond its premise to become a complete experience.
EDIT2: The webster definition would be this: to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. In order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. In the case of Wii Sports they're taking games that would be worthless with a pad and buttons, slapping motion controls on them, and putting out a strong marketing message targetted at people who don't like games or have been jaded by the industry's output.


Again we're back to your definition of "complete experiences". Maybe this is where my retro roots lead me elsewhere; I forget if I'm older than you but, Activision Boxing and Tennis and Atari Bowling and Golf and the primitive proto-Baseball game were all complete games. Now, I admit the game industry has moved on... but this kind of gaming lives on in mainstream games in the form of minigames and casual game downloads, and can provide a very elemental gaming experience. I don't think "collection of minigames" is, fundamentally, an illegitimate approach to game design, and to convince me otherwise you need to get more specific about what you mean by "good" (it looks like its been predetermined it's not "wii sports w/ a story mode")
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
I don't think "collection of minigames" is, fundamentally, an illegitimate approach to game design, and to convince me otherwise you need to get more specific about what you mean by "good" (it looks like its been predetermined it's not "wii sports w/ a story mode")


I'm using the word "good" here because I haven't really formulated a good way of explaining what I mean. I mean, at the core it comes down to depth. But again, that term is kind of nebulous. In all honesty, maybe what Wii Sports needs is a story mode. Not so much a plot, but some sort of structure that gives it a satisfying beginning, middle, and end. This is what makes stories fulfilling and, not coincidentally, many of the best games that I play. Thinking of sports games, games that are like Wii Sports that I find "complete" would be, Virtua Tennis DC, Punch Out, and Hot Shots Golf 3+. It's not unlockables, character improvement, or plot that matter, just a satisfying feeling of beginning, middle, and end that is sometimes (but not always, and certainly not as a blanket rule) made possible through these things.

kirkjerk wrote:
I don't know much about the demo. I wonder why Nintendo didn't go that route? Maybe they ended up not LIKING the kind of dual attention thing. (I forget, could 1 player Mario still fire off things w/ the pointer, or did it NEED player 2?)


How Galaxy works is that the second player can grab enemies or objects in the world that someone playing in single player can't. In the original demo, player one had more things they could do with the pointer. The opening level had a bell that you could either grab and shake with the cursor or jump up and hit with Mario. You could also spin Mario by either shaking the nunchuk or by swiping across him with the cursor. These are the things that really made the game feel unique and innovative and they were all moved to two player or removed altogether, probably for the sake of sticking with the marketing message of simplification.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Thinking of sports games, games that are like Wii Sports that I find "complete" would be, Virtua Tennis DC, Punch Out, and Hot Shots Golf 3+. It's not unlockables, character improvement, or plot that matter, just a satisfying feeling of beginning, middle, and end that is sometimes (but not always, and certainly not as a blanket rule) made possible through these things.

Again my idiosyncratic retro outlook might be haunting me here... I do see what you mean, even if I'm not in full agreement it's interesting to try to get to the specifics.

Wii Boxing might work a lot better simply if the characters weren't just generic Miis (though Hey Look I'm boxing Jesus! is kind of amusing), and maybe a tourney selection.

Virtua Tennis DC...dunno. Is that more complete than Mario Tennis? And if so is it about the balance of player positioning vs shot selection?

No idea about Hot Shots Golf. Or any golf game, except maybe some of the cuter putt putt minigames in Monkey Ball.

I know these are just some examples, but I kind of see what you mean, even if I think minigames in bulk are worthwhile.
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
I know these are just some examples, but I kind of see what you mean, even if I think minigames in bulk are worthwhile.


Well, lets think about story, challenge, and unlockables as examples. What role do they play? I would argue the role is to give the player a reason to come back. Retro games almost excusively use challenge to do this, but since then, we've moved onto other things and various combinations of them. Wii Sports kind of sort of tries to have unlockables, but they're half-assed and unrewarding, so it's a fairly shallow experience as a result.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
kirkjerk wrote:
I know these are just some examples, but I kind of see what you mean, even if I think minigames in bulk are worthwhile.

Well, lets think about story, challenge, and unlockables as examples. What role do they play? I would argue the role is to give the player a reason to come back. Retro games almost excusively use challenge to do this, but since then, we've moved onto other things and various combinations of them. Wii Sports kind of sort of tries to have unlockables, but they're half-assed and unrewarding, so it's a fairly shallow experience as a result.

(I'm finding this an interesting dialog.)

I'd say challenge, to the extent it's a near synonym for "difficulty", isn't an appeal in of itself ("because it's there" is not much of a reason to do anything), though it might have a strong influence in the level of Sense of Accomplishment. (Maybe for you "challenge" means something closer to "Accomplishment")

In other words, a classic gamer would play to see how many points they can score, or how many levels they could pass, and most games were geared to get gradually more and more difficult. Any new "content" that was generated was a qualitative change that might emerge from the gradual quantitative increase in difficulty.

To this day, some retro gamers point to this as maximum gameplay value, since it potentially never ends. Also, at this point, the mechanic of the game generally needs to be appealing, in and of itself. (akin to the "fun to move in Mario games" idea we've talked about here)

As ROM sizes increased, it became more feasible to reward the player with content as the reward for additional play. A story could be used to amplify this, either with non-playable framing elements giving a kind of fictional sense of purpose, or with an even closer tie-in with the gradual exposure to the content.

Unlockables were the same idea, but in a more heavy handed, less granular way, content rewards for gaming prowess or persistence.

(Interestingly (to me at least, with roots in the retro camp along with a strong interest in non-online multiplayer gaming) the history of games is somewhat solitary... despite roots in Pong and Combat, most classic games (and games moving forward) were focused on one player playing... despite the potential for cheap "unlimited playability" playing a human opponent can provide-- maybe because handicapping is a hard thing to do well?)

Now, most real world sports and hobbies are closer to the original "retro" video game idea: you play for the sake of playing; you play to get better, and because the mechanics are enjoyable (or, heh, I guess you could think of bowling leagues and softball teams as providing something akin to video game "story"...) but in general, you don't expect to unlock more and more content.

So I guess that helps explain how Wii Fit fits. The idea is getting back to real world sports and retro games, where the mechanic itself is a pleasure and we can always aim to get better. (and not coincidentally, the baseball, tennis, and boxing stress the "unlimited content" of multiplayer, and maybe the bowling, leaving golf as the main single person event. I think. Or maybe I just find golf damn boring.)

So I guess this is just a long-winded repetition of what you put in more succinct terms, coming to this conclusion: Wii Sports shouldn't even need unlockables, or story, or unflding content, to be an appealing game especially for the casual gamer. YMMV, and my own gradual loss of interest in it may bely my point.
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRYING TO STAY ON TOPIC (hey im not the one derailing a thread woo)

i played dr mario online with some crazy japanese people and i won like 80 percent of hte BATTLES they are crazy good it is crazy fun

someone play with me
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
(I'm finding this an interesting dialog.)

I'd say challenge, to the extent it's a near synonym for "difficulty", isn't an appeal in of itself ("because it's there" is not much of a reason to do anything), though it might have a strong influence in the level of Sense of Accomplishment. (Maybe for you "challenge" means something closer to "Accomplishment")

In other words, a classic gamer would play to see how many points they can score, or how many levels they could pass, and most games were geared to get gradually more and more difficult. Any new "content" that was generated was a qualitative change that might emerge from the gradual quantitative increase in difficulty.

To this day, some retro gamers point to this as maximum gameplay value, since it potentially never ends. Also, at this point, the mechanic of the game generally needs to be appealing, in and of itself. (akin to the "fun to move in Mario games" idea we've talked about here)

As ROM sizes increased, it became more feasible to reward the player with content as the reward for additional play. A story could be used to amplify this, either with non-playable framing elements giving a kind of fictional sense of purpose, or with an even closer tie-in with the gradual exposure to the content.

Unlockables were the same idea, but in a more heavy handed, less granular way, content rewards for gaming prowess or persistence.

(Interestingly (to me at least, with roots in the retro camp along with a strong interest in non-online multiplayer gaming) the history of games is somewhat solitary... despite roots in Pong and Combat, most classic games (and games moving forward) were focused on one player playing... despite the potential for cheap "unlimited playability" playing a human opponent can provide-- maybe because handicapping is a hard thing to do well?)

Now, most real world sports and hobbies are closer to the original "retro" video game idea: you play for the sake of playing; you play to get better, and because the mechanics are enjoyable (or, heh, I guess you could think of bowling leagues and softball teams as providing something akin to video game "story"...) but in general, you don't expect to unlock more and more content.

So I guess that helps explain how Wii Fit fits. The idea is getting back to real world sports and retro games, where the mechanic itself is a pleasure and we can always aim to get better. (and not coincidentally, the baseball, tennis, and boxing stress the "unlimited content" of multiplayer, and maybe the bowling, leaving golf as the main single person event. I think. Or maybe I just find golf damn boring.)

So I guess this is just a long-winded repetition of what you put in more succinct terms, coming to this conclusion: Wii Sports shouldn't even need unlockables, or story, or unflding content, to be an appealing game especially for the casual gamer. YMMV, and my own gradual loss of interest in it may bely my point.


I think we're mostly on the same page here, but I don't know about the "gaming as a solitary activity" thing. One of gaming's stengths is that it can be a solitary activity but it can also be a competitive one. Real sports can't really be played by yourself. Well, I suppose Golf and Bowling can, but to my knowledge nobody plays these by themself either.

Wii Sports failure is that it isn't all that satisfying either way. As a single player game, well, I've already covered that above, and as a multiplayer game it doesn't really have a lot of tactical space for improvement outside of "learn to use a new controller!" As an intellectual challenge, once you learn how to use the controller it's kind of over. While real sports have an immense gap between knowing how to play and actually being good, Wii Sports doesn't. There is a gap, but it's relatively small in comparison to sports or other games.

But lets go back to classic games and how they motivate you to keep playing them. Mostly because I want to talk about Yoshi's Touch and Go for the DS. Have you played this game? It has the absolute best way of adding depth to classic, score-based game design of anything I've ever seen. You begin each level by falling down from the sky as Baby Mario. As you fall, you use the stylus to draw clouds on the screen and/or circle enemies/coins with the stylus to turn them into bubbles that can then be flung at Mario for points. After a few minutes of this, you land on Yoshi and game changes to an auto-scrolling platformer where tapping on Yoshi causes him to jump and drawing stuff on the screen lets you guide him away from enemies. The reason this works is because the second section is randomly chosen (indicated by the color of Yoshi Mario lands on) depending on how well you do in the first section. A whole round lasts maybe 10 minutes max. So there's the whole beat-your-high-score/challenge thing, along with some sense of exploration (see what the stages are like with each Yoshi color), and it's got a rewarding interface that feels like you can always improve.

And herein lies one of the big differences between the Wii's output and the DS's. The DS's life began with innovative experiments that had hidden depth where the Wii's began with innovative experiments that never reach beyond cute and clever use of interface.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
One of gaming's stengths is that it can be a solitary activity but it can also be a competitive one.


or a cooperative one.
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think while the history of gaming has both single and multiplayer, ultimately single is more core to what gaming has been about by a fair amount. Maybe I'm confusing it w/ my own experience (and god knows I love multiplayer) but by reputation, it is more about player vs computer than player vs player as moderated by computer.

Maybe Wii Sports isn't all that. Tennis can be dominated by that damn power serve; it's fairly achievable to learn to get 300s in bowling, or close, Boxing (to me) seems to get down to rabbit punching, Baseball the pitching is seemingly random, though I think there's some home for the batting, and I can't bring myself to care about Golf. But most of these flaws seem to be in mechanics, rather than what it is as a collection of minigames.

Wii has been around since, what, late 2006, so it's only a year and a half old? That's pretty young as far as consoles go. (Tho interestingly, Nintendo seems to have released most of its major franchises on it already) Given the difficulties in really thinking about the new paradigm (and the danger of trying too hard to be clever ala Red Steel) I think it's too early to condemn the Wii but what we've seen thus far.

Sounds like I do need to check out Touch and Go, if only because its mechanic sounds like some stuff I wanted to code up for Glorious Trainwrecks games.... I just wish I had a good gesture recognition library or something to recognize specific shapes drawn with the mouse. (I'd love to start w/ something like a Pac Pix)

I see what you mean about the retro-ish appeal of that game, but I think there's at least one qualitative difference; DS can rely on the horsepower to do stuff that classic games couldn't do 'til like, Lemmings; I can't think of many examples older than that (maybe people can help me out) that featured "modify the environment" type play, which seems to me to be something NEWish and wonderful, rather than that smooth of a transition from the past.


Quote:
And herein lies one of the big differences between the Wii's output and the DS's. The DS's life began with innovative experiments that had hidden depth where the Wii's began with innovative experiments that never reach beyond cute and clever use of interface.

Well, how many games have really done well with that on the DS?
I'm not sure if Pac Pix even has that much grace.
Maybe that Kirby game, and Touch and Go mayhaps...

then each system has some collections of minigames that (IMO) do some interesting things, both have a version of Wario Ware... Wii's Super Monkey Ball and the Rayman Rabid games. The former has some great ideas (and some notable failures, heh I should make an entry on Glorious Trainwrecks) and I really hope the "hold the controller vertically like an airplane's joystick", as seen in its submarine game, shows up in a full game, it's really immersive compared to the more typical "controller maps to vehicle" control you see in Kart and Excite Truck.
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