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kirkjerk
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 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Jet Set / Grind Radio vs Jet Set Radio Future: FIGHT! |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | Uggghghhhhh JSRF is so crap.
- grinding now a primary means of getting about, not just a cool thing you can do 
- cops don't follow you around level (with each graffiti you do increasing the number of cops), they just appear in special cordoned-off sections. I am fond of saying this is like taking Pacman and making the ghost chasing seperate from the dot-eating
- the game is half-finished (rushed for launch of Xbox?)
- it's not as nice looking as JSR, although the developers are to be commended for pulling offt some difficult colour schemes. I like skating around Shibuya and Grind street on a bright sunny day under a blue sky! It's an Outrun-like thrill that JSRF is sorely lacking! |
| kirkjerk wrote: | Re: JSRF; I think I've been involved in this debate before, but I still feel that the extra speed and kinetic feel they added, along with making the difficulty less inhumanely cruel, makes up for most any of the short comings. Returning to DC's rendition feels very slow and sluggish and I just remember how frickin' impossible it got later on, like the one Times Square w/ the copters and even some stuff before that. But I can redirect this to another thread if there is one.
I was mildly startled and -err...also mildly aroused... by some Rule34 stuff w/ Gum. |
Harveyjames has disclaimed furthering this in a separate thread, but wotthehell.
What's half finished about JSRF?
Do people agree about the relative speed of the two games?
And did people manage to beat the DC game? I got so damn stuck and frustrated. The last level of JSRF was tough but cool.
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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OH MAN What's half-finished about JSRF? There is a level where you have to fight these demon shadow skaters, but they didn't have time to program any AI for them, so the fucking things just FLOAT IN THE AIR and you have to COLLECT THEM like spraycans.
Also all the points I made above. I can't stress enough how crippling it is to take the cops out of the grafitting segments.
ALSO, aesthetically it's pretty top-loaded in that almost all the environments after the first two are ass-ugly.
ALSO ALSO, Beat doesn't look anywhere as cool in the JSRF: his shirt is too tight and he looks like he is on his way to a Belgian gay disco. Other character designs suffer similarly.
finally a lot of the gameplay is super-frustrating and tedious. I didn't relish grinding up a spiral staircase to fight a spider tank, then having to do the same when I fell down, grinding down train tracks to fight a killer train, grinding a roller coaster, grind grind grind UAGUAUGHUGHHh. |
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | | OH MAN What's half-finished about JSRF? There is a level where you have to fight these demon shadow skaters, but they didn't have time to program any AI for them, so the fucking things just FLOAT IN THE AIR and you have to COLLECT THEM like spraycans. |
Err don't remember that bit.
| Quote: | | Also all the points I made above. I can't stress enough how crippling it is to take the cops out of the grafitting segments. |
No, I can see that, they put 'em in a minigame ghetto, and that's not so cool.
| Quote: | | ALSO, aesthetically it's pretty top-loaded in that almost all the environments after the first two are ass-ugly. |
Hmm, don't remember that fact either.
I don't remember most of the place names, but the tower w/ the twisting dragons was cool, and that big place with all the roofs on a slope, the sewers, and then the place w/ all the wire fu; all pretty good looking.
I do think the "clubhouse" area is a bit corny relatively speaking, but it's nice that it's all connected.
| Quote: | | finally a lot of the gameplay is super-frustrating and tedious. I didn't relish grinding up a spiral staircase to fight a spider tank, then having to do the same when I fell down, grinding down train tracks to fight a killer train, grinding a roller coaster, grind grind grind UAGUAUGHUGHHh. |
Tedious I can see, but thought it was worse on the DC, because it was slower...
but ultimately, do you agree DC is much harder?
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Not so that I noticed, but what the original has in its favour is that the annoying grind 'em up boss fights that plague JSRF are almost completely absent. There's very little in JSR where I think 'I'm just playing this in the hope that something more fun is going to come along next', whereas I felt that pretty much all the way through JSRF.
The only thing I liked about JSRF was bumbling about exploring Shibuya, which became an empty and aimless experience when I realised the cops weren't going to turn up. The cops are half of what made skating around in JSR so exhilarating! |
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friedchicken
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | | ]ALSO, aesthetically it's pretty top-loaded in that almost all the environments after the first two are ass-ugly. |
Well... unless you're talking about the Japanese version, the last few levels of JSR that were added on for the American release were pretty bad. So for me that's not something unique to JSRF (or to a hell of a lot of games, period).
| kirkjerk wrote: | | Harveyjames wrote: | | finally a lot of the gameplay is super-frustrating and tedious. |
Tedious I can see, but thought it was worse on the DC, because it was slower...
but ultimately, do you agree DC is much harder? |
Okay, here is as good a place as any to spill my opinions all over the place.
First off, the biggest problem JSRF had going for it is the fact that from the start it was a product destined to be overlooked by like 90% of its potential player base. It's a Japanese game developed for an audience (in Japan) that was remarkably unenthusiastic toward the console it was released on, and (in America) an audience that was more interested in a different flavor of game altogether. It was a relatively early Xbox release, and it shows. I would imagine it was enough of a financial flop that it will probably never generate a sequel. It's like Smilebit just threw away the franchise's future by putting it on the Xbox and not the Gamecube or PS2.
It's also got a bunch of problems. I dislike the way that the graffiti was handled, dumbing it down from JSR by removing the directionals. BUT the simplified commands let you tag 'on the fly'. At first I thought I hated the 'item collection' aspect (which, incidentally, both games have), but later on I found it to be a real challenge to find a way to grab the items that at first appear to be totally inaccessible. Future is much darker of a game than JSR, I think only because they discovered they could do cool neon effects on the Xbox that were previously impossible. The DC game has a nice, clean, otherworldly feel from being overall so bright.
That said, I think it's a great game, or at least a game that shows a lot of promise. Kirkjerk, you're absolutely right about the DC game appearing slow, especially after playing JSRF. One thing that they definitely got right is the ridiculous sense of speed. Sometimes JSRF just [i[]feels good to play.[/i] So does JSR for that fact. Oh, and for my money, the triad of JSR, JSRF, and Ollie King have THE best soundtrack for any game, ever.
So, just to put it out there, these two games are probably right up there as two of my favorite games of all time. Yeah, they have problems, but just about any game does. |
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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but it doesn't have cops in it chasing you round
It's like chu chu rocket without the cats or Luigi's Mansion without ghosts
I can bang this drum all day! |
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friedchicken
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | | The only thing I liked about JSRF was bumbling about exploring Shibuya, which became an empty and aimless experience when I realised the cops weren't going to turn up. The cops are half of what made skating around in JSR so exhilarating! |
Not that I don't miss the cops in JSRF, but I think JSR relied on them a little too much as a means of propelling the 'story'. Their AI pretty much sucked, and if they couldn't improve it for Future, I kindof glad they're mostly absent. JSRF is also a lot more about the rivalries between the gangs as a result.
They totally need to do a MMO version of JSR. |
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure that I miss the directional tagging.
There's a core issue here, which is that beautiful tags take artistic skill and grace and pressing a button does not. But for me, the tag minigame just emphasizes that dichotomy. (reminds me of that "The Warriors" game) So "click to tag" is a little weak, but the minigame makes me long for more direct control of what I'm painting -- though of course that would require some level of AI to judge the result.
Anyway, Harveyjames, bang the drum all you want, but you may or may not convince people that "cops have to chase you all over the boards" is as important as Ghosts in Luigi's Mansion. For me it wasn't a defining aspect, and the superior kinetic quality of the sequel makes me prefer it.
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extrabastardformula
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't like the non-stop grinds you had to look for in the DC version to get the massive combo and Jet ranking. In fact, playing for score in the DC version entirely. Also the time limits and super enclosed arenas. Aside from the decision to separate the cop dodging from the graff, I think Future nails it a lot tighter.
Also the tagger's tag bits on DC were plenty grindfest boss encounters on their own.
Edit: also, Harveyjams, you should try out Mark Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure if you haven't and are looking for a graff minigame more deep than just holding the R-Trigger as you gring past a wall marked as a graff spot in Future.
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friedchicken
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| extrabastardformula wrote: | | Edit: also, Harveyjams, you should try out Mark Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure if you haven't and are looking for a graff minigame more deep than just holding the R-Trigger as you gring past a wall marked as a graff spot in Future. |
I assume it's relatively good? I had avoided it somewhat because of my opinion that Marc Ecko is something of a tool, and that clothing-designer-as-graffiti-writer is less compelling than graffiti-writer-becomes-clothing-designer. But maybe it's cheap enough now that I can throw my presuppositions to the wind.
Part of me kindof hoped it would be JSR-esque, but reviews at the time indicted it isn't so much. |
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| extrabastardformula wrote: |
Edit: also, Harveyjams, you should try out Mark Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure if you haven't and are looking for a graff minigame more deep than just holding the R-Trigger as you gring past a wall marked as a graff spot in Future. |
That wasn't me who said they preferred the DC tagging system, it was Friedchicken! I could give two shits about Marc Ecko's Getting Up. Me, I'm all about two things:
1: Getting chased
2: Cops
The AI did suck on the cops, but they're cops, they're meant to be stupid. |
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boojiboy7
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Getting Up is actually almost a decent game. It has a few issues, but I think it showed some promise. Ecko's name is on it, but he isn't in it, and I think they just sorta used his name to leverage a certain culture into it, which they actually did pretty well. It ain't a great game, but if you rent it or get it cheap, you can see some decent stuff in it. Pretty bitchin soundtrack as well. |
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friedchicken
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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On a related note, has anyone actually played Ollie King? I've lamented elsewhere that it will likely never be ported to any home systems because 1) it was released to arcades so long ago and 2) it has such a specific control scheme, i.e. a skateboard that the player stands on. Although to be fair I'm sure it will make it into MAME at some point, if it hasn't already.
For those who aren't familiar, Ollie King is a non-JSR sequel skateboarding game that included some remixed JSR music by Hideki Naganuma as well as some incredible original tracks. I don't think it had any cameos by anyone from JSR, even though right around the time of its release (2004) I thought sure I had heard that there would be.
Anyway, the soundtrack is great, and easily available through alternative means, although I personally picked up the actual disk. |
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Slonie
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't ever seen Ollie King even though I'm a big fan of Top Skater, Air Trix, and (somewhat related) Soul Surfer...Oh well, at least I've gotten some seat time on Wild Riders, which is another JSR-like game by Sega. You know, the one with motorcycles and cel shading, and running from the cops. It's pretty damn awesome, if you can find it.
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Harveyjames
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| No but I looked at the videos. It looks mental! I think I prefer the look of JSR, though. |
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astralpancakes
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Anyone else who can't stop thinking about JSR when they play Crackdown?
(or Burnout Paradise for that matter) |
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fish
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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i like em both and a want a new one.
set in alternate 1969 tokyo.
JET SET RADIO RETROOOO!!!!
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| astralpancakes wrote: | | Anyone else who can't stop thinking about JSR when they play Crackdown? |
I think I noticed the similarity but it didn't jump out at me throughout gameplay...
I think Crackdown is a very good example of a subtle use of the style... for the most part it didn't stand out, things just looked good. I think on vehicles, esp the SUV, it was a bit more blatant, especially with that very early scene of the wheels strobing backwards ripping down that hallway out of HQ.
Crackdown did have some great city design to boot.
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astralpancakes
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| No I meant I couldn't stop thinking about how I'd rather rather play a JSR game with the same engine. With the radio station (and blue skies) from BP.. |
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fish
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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yeah but crackdown had the crazy jumps.
if they could just make a game with JSR amazing style, art and personality AND crackdown's crazy jumps, id fucking split in half in happiness.
right in the middle.
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| fish wrote: | yeah but crackdown had the crazy jumps.
if they could just make a game with JSR amazing style, art and personality AND crackdown's crazy jumps, id fucking split in half in happiness.
right in the middle. |
Like... car jumps?
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| fish wrote: | yeah but crackdown had the crazy jumps.
if they could just make a game with JSR amazing style, art and personality AND crackdown's crazy jumps, id fucking split in half in happiness.
right in the middle. |
Like... car jumps?
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boojiboy7
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| kirkjerk wrote: | | Like... car jumps? |
I liked that by the end of the game I could jump as a dude from building to building like some sort of super hero. I swear, that game has the best platforming ever. |
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: | | Like... car jumps? |
I liked that by the end of the game I could jump as a dude from building to building like some sort of super hero. I swear, that game has the best platforming ever. |
OK, good point (I didn't think the car jumps were all that.)
That would be a different mechanic, IIRC JSRF doesn't really have any leveling up aspect. I'm not sure if it would work; I'm pretty nervous about leveling up in games in general. It certainly worked pretty well in Crackdown, but I hate how it shows up in, say GTA...
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boojiboy7
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| That could be an interesting game fusion, though. A JSR game where you pick a guy and he becomes a freaking Crackdown-esque superhero over the course of the game. His added jumping ability and such could work similar to Crackdown's, allowing you to skate and grind and such in high and more out of the way places and such. Hmm. |
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: | | That could be an interesting game fusion, though. A JSR game where you pick a guy and he becomes a freaking Crackdown-esque superhero over the course of the game. His added jumping ability and such could work similar to Crackdown's, allowing you to skate and grind and such in high and more out of the way places and such. Hmm. |
I... dunno.
Maybe I'm not giving JSRF enough credit, but a ton of it (as in a majority) was doing these lovely jumps. So if I'm spending a lot of time playing the "ok, can I do this jump NOW?" game, it's going to get frustrating. Crackdown had some of that same frustration, but it was a varied enough game world, kind of a GTA-lite, that you could go do something else and just keep working up the jump attribute as a sidequest.
Again, I'm dubious about leveling up in most games, at least where it's not what the game is built around, and sometimes even then. It's too easy to get in that lock|key pattern like in Zelda and Metroid. I prefer stuff like Mario and GTA3 and GTA:VC, where you're pretty much the same guy at the begining as the end, just with a few more toys to play with.
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B coma
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Now I've hardly played a lick of the original JSR (and I admit that the speed put me off after playing JSRF), BUT
If anything I thought JSRF's problem was that the game was spread too thin despite the size and scope of the environments. Someone mentioned the aspect of trying to reach areas with items/tags that seem unreachable at first glance, and playing it as a speedy/grinding/platforming exploration thing is probably what JSRF is actually all about. It's fantastic! I think it's a bit silly to condemn one game for not retaining the focus of another, even if it's in the same series.
In the end though, something about the tasks just started to feel like work and I gave in. I set it down years ago and I wouldn't even know where to start again if I wanted, so I find myself wishing the whole game was tightened up and streamlined! Though it lacks polish, I disagree that it's half finished. I think the game might benefit from having a few things cut out from it entirely.
I really appreciated being able to edit your tags, even if it is an extraordinary task to create anything nice looking with the analogue stick. |
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friedchicken
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Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| B coma wrote: | | I think it's a bit silly to condemn one game for not retaining the focus of another, even if it's in the same series. |
The truth is, I've felt all along here like I was defending JSRF at the expense of JSR, which was not my intention at all. Honestly, I love both games, and they both play like two different takes on a very similar premise.
Hey, maybe JSR will be a Sega Ages release one of these days?
Yeah, and even though I never actually edited my tags, I loved the idea that I could if I wanted to. |
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fish
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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i love crackdown so much.
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elvis.shrugged
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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JSRF is one of the biggest letdowns ever for me.
It's not that it's bad...it's just so goddamn mediocre. Like they took all the SPEED and INTENSITY of the original (COPS ARE COMING MOVE MOVE MOVE) and replaced it with washed-out graphics (JSR's have always looked sharper and nice, IMO) and collectable knick-knacks. Ugh.
I mean, it has merit as a platformer/crazy jump simulator, but I was expecting something more akin to the original. |
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| It's not as CONCEPTUALLY PURE as JSR, can I have that as my quote? |
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