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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Steve Meretzky on "The Most Perfect Game".
Can you guess what it is? _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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If it is what I think it is, he can go fuck himself! _________________
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Worm .
Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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EDIT: This was a reply to the apparently year old thread.
So ... like absurd.org, right?
I have a friend who makes IFgames and is very involved in them. So he can usually drop me a line on some old good ones. I remember for his one game he blogged as the main character for awhile to stir up interest.
I don't think Web 2.0 super hyping is needing, but just for them to be immediately interesting. Like narcolepsy. _________________
Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT
Last edited by Worm on Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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everybody knows you hate portal, cycle.
and nobody cares. _________________
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Worm .
Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I mean Portal was great. But it takes someone who is seriously disconnected to think it's the only drop of rain in the desert. _________________
Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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will wispy mustaches ever stop trembling over the weighted companion cube?
i think not.
no i mean by this point portal is so overrated it's the [insert overrated thing] of games. i'm pretty sure we're going to see miracle cancer cures attributed to it's healing light; "i had an eight pound tumor but the weighted companion cube saved me!"
though it does establish the proper formula:
1) quirky narrator
2) cute song
3) loney and twee in a cement mixer
4) merchandising opportunities
(this is also the formula to make romantic comedies but don't tell anyone; julia roberts is hell on indie cred) _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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BACKLASHEZ
I don't think it's fair to be unduly harsh on something just because everyone else likes it so much. Except when I was 7 and I used to hate Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles, just because everyone else liked it. That was fine. It's not fine with Portal, though. I think we should celebrate what it does well.
Seriously if a game is as well-written as a Julia Roberts movie that's a serious step up from nearly all other games, which are about as well-written as a film starring the Honky-Tonk Man. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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This is what came up when I google image searched for The Honky-Tonk Man.
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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portal told a cute story. but i honestly fail to see the second coming of jesus bit that everyone else does. _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Cute story with clever and humorous writing that never takes you out of the game or makes you stop to watch a cut-scene. That's better than most games have going for them for story telling. The second coming of christ? no. sorry. But it's very rare to have all of those together in one package that also includes very original gameplay and puzzle solving. If you were to put together a list of all the things that portal does really well, most games that are also very good only come up with like 70% of the same things in those lists. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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yes, if steve meretzky thinks portal is far and away the most revelatory thing being done in videogames, he should probably be playing more . . . interactive fiction. (hey, maybe if he followed independent / student games he'd have played narbacular drop!) but that doesn't change the fact that what portal does, it does well, and it's refreshing compared to the usual gun-bugger games the industry has to offer. i think worship and hatred are equally unwarranted. _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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I've not played it, but I really want to. I think the main thing that's bowled people over is probably Chet and Eric's writing. I'm really glad those guys landed on their feet. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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it's worth playing, and i don't care for puzzle games.
but it is mostly a puzzle game. _________________
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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and pretty medicore one at that. _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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maybe that's why i got through it.
i tend to really, really, really, really hate puzzles, riddles, etc in games. hate them like forced stealth sections hate them. hate them like "final battle changes all the mechanics you've been learning for the past three weeks" hate them. like unskippable cutscenes hate them.
i may be a bit dull, however. _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah it sounds like you hate a lot of things, pops. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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and don't even get me started on nintendogs.
get off my lawn! _________________
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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also i bet i could also write some nice dailouge if i had like over a year to write a page.
only about three good lines, too. _________________
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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His other claims are appropriate, though! And many puzzle games are infuriating because poorly designed. Portal doesn't try to be a nuisance, and what I respect it for is just the whole package working. You can jump in, jump out, and spend an evening with it. Just like a good film or novella. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think Portal didn't have the balls to challenge the player. It wanted to show off the snappy writing too much, and not alienate the dafter players, which feels like a total cop out to me who wanted to be challanged.
That, and I think the Portal mechanic actually isn't deep enough to expand into new and interesting situations. I had enough of the same five puzzles before the end of the game. It actually became repetitive.
The finale was also stupid and fourth wall breaking. The lab was believable, but come on, it was a bit retarded having all these decaying back rooms that just happened to have an exit via a portal somewhere. Also; a pointless room full of pistons. What? Was the same guy who designed Mars Space Station Monster Closets behind this place?
The final boss fight was also very gamey and stupid too, but hey, who cares because snappy writing, amirite.
I COULD GO ON, REALLY. _________________
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Worm .
Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Cycle, that's precisely why there are games like DROD!
Portal is a pretty good puzzle engine, but the reason it wasn't taken far when it was Narbacular Drop is because there are only so many tricks or ways of challenging the player. Hopefully the fan community proves me wrong, but I really don't think the custom maps for Portal are going anywhere. There is a retarded amount of challenge in the least steps/least time stages, I don't think it's a meaningful challenge but it's still a challenge.
I think the game has wonderful presentation, execution, and writing. The puzzle aspects are very clever and hopefully can be taken to higher levels by a fan community. However, it doesn't allow for the crunchy logic puzzles you'll find in many other games. ... and expecting that in any game that wants to be popular is just nuts. _________________
Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT |
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boojiboy7 .
Joined: 26 Nov 2006 Posts: 248 Location: Yeah, THAT Cleveland.
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Cycle wrote: | I think Portal didn't have the balls to challenge the player. It wanted to show off the snappy writing too much, and not alienate the dafter players, which feels like a total cop out to me who wanted to be challanged. |
Welcome to why I find Half-life 2 boring, but replace puzzle with combat. I think it just a general design philosophy of Valve (and people Valve works with, because, yes, I know, it wasn't the Half-life team making Portal). They want everyone to see all of their game. It is OK, I guess, as a principle, but it isn't what I look for in FPS-ish games. It didn't really bother me in Portal because Portal didn't feel like an FPS. But I could see it being bothersome in puzzle games, yes, if I played more of them. |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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I find the whole concept of "puzzles" outside of abstract, explicitly puzzle-y puzzle games to be pretty annoying, mainly because they're always ridiculously contrived* (which means I pretty much cannot replay any of the Zeldas even if I start them up in a nostalgia kick (aside from the first one, which is fairly sandbox-y, really) without putting down the controller and walking away in the middle of one of the block-pushing sections).
Portal gets a pass because it's just abstract enough, plus it's short, fairly humorous and easy enough for daft people like me to muddle through it in a couple of hours. And then it's over! No muss, no fuss.
* - Because they nearly always rely on having some thing that you should, in all honesty, expect to be able to do, only you can't, because that would mean that you wouldn't have to solve the puzzle. I really have come to appreciate games that reward you for being a clever dick. |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: |
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The last level of Portal was about as contrived as you can get!
In fact, I'd probably have enjoyed it more if I never played that bit. I was acceptable up to that point. _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Cycle wrote: | also i bet i could also write some nice dailouge if i had like over a year to write a page.
only about three good lines, too. |
Alright, I'm giving you a year, come up with a concept that captures the public imagination as much as Portal did. Go for it, superstar! |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: |
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ok, you provide my funding!
let's do this! _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Well, technically, someone has to give you a job writing for a games company first. Chet and Erik who wrote Portal started out writing on the internet for free and were so good they were snapped up by Valve! So you've got everything you need to get started already. Better get cracking! |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Hey buddy, you wanted to see my work, so YOU'RE paying.
Or my time will be extended to ten years or whenever these clowns first started writing on the intertron! _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of clowns, how about you just go and see if there's a videogame company in the only town you will ever get work, CLOWNTOWN |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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POPULATION: YOU _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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THAT'S WHAT I SAID |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
harvey stop spamming these intelligent threads! _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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What! Cycle you've gone too far, as usual. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Cycle wrote: | In fact, I'd probably have enjoyed it more if I never played that bit. I was acceptable up to that point. |
agreed. now all you do is rant about how much you hate portal, and your acceptability has gone down drastically.
anyway, yes, portal is interesting because it's a very abstract puzzle-gamey concept, but it's also a valve game, and valve demands that veneer of believability in each of their single-player games. the solution, of course, was to set it in a place where the game could be contrived without comprimising the believability of the setting - a lab. and it works almost entirely because of the script.
as for boredom, the half-life 2 games bore the shit out of me. i like what they're doing, but they have real pacing problems. if nothing else, portal is paced well.
should i spin this off into a portal argument thread? _________________
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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well, i went ahead and did it. see where your NERD RAGE got us, cycle? _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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NERD |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
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making your game an hour or two is a definite way around the issue of pacing.
though i think hl2 in particular is perfectly paced so quid pro quo or something latin like that. _________________
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klikbeep .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 35
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Oh, god. |
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daphaknee just enemies now
Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Posts: 892 Location: YAY AREA
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: |
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yeah i really think everyone likes portal becuase it was short and everyone beat it and people dont really beat games anymore they just play them for two hours and then write about the games
but everyone beat portal because its so short!
i just hope now since everyone is shitting companion cubes that
a. people make shorter games
b. people make shorter FUNNIER games there arent enough games that are outright funny
i mean the only game that is short and funny are the new sam and maxs
man i think i just want every game to be sam and max |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I sort of thought there was too much story in half-life 1. To me the most satisfying thing in the game was being rewarded for keeping security guards alive by having them open up rooms full of weapons for you, in the early parts of black mesa, and that part is over with way too quickly. Then again, I guess it's sort of 'modular' in a way, in that the sections with the military play very differently to the sections I talked about. Ditto the Xen section and all that teleport malarky that precedes it. So in conclusion I guess I'm saying gameplay mechanics that are touched upon and then discarded before they've been allowed to be explored fully are nothing new to Valve software. |
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daphaknee just enemies now
Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Posts: 892 Location: YAY AREA
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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i stopped playing half life 1 when they wanted me to kick stupid boxes stupid centemeters and then jump on them to grab some stupid ladder
that 2d portal flash game on newgrounds wasnt so bad
and yeah the reason portal was on my top games of 2007 list was because 2007 was a pretty mediocre year for videogames
2008 is already doing better |
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Mr Mustache .
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 167 Location: Queens
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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It was mentioned in another thread, that what makes Portal important is that it's a proof of concept for commercial short form games. I don't understand how that could be a bad thing. _________________ Straight up |
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Winged Assassins (1984) .
Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 996 Location: Super Magic Drive
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I never felt any attachment to my companion cube and I really can't see why people do have such attachments. By the end of that section I just wished that I had a gravity gun so I could shoot it into the oven quicker than walking over and dropping it in. As for the rest of Portal, it became one of those games that I played through twice then couldn't give a rat's arse anymore. _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm really about to do the point-counterpoint thing with Cycle here.
Cycle wrote: | I think Portal didn't have the balls to challenge the player. It wanted to show off the snappy writing too much, and not alienate the dafter players, which feels like a total cop out to me who wanted to be challanged. |
First off, my wife is fairly competent at videogames and I would probably rank her right around the skill level of an "average game playing adult". She hardly found the puzzles as easy as I did, and I'm sure your superbrain just outsmarted that silly game too quick. With that said I'm assuming you beat all the challenge puzzles/levels?
Quote: | That, and I think the Portal mechanic actually isn't deep enough to expand into new and interesting situations. I had enough of the same five puzzles before the end of the game. It actually became repetitive. |
This is why if the game were of a "standard" or even longer length than it is the game would have really overstayed it's welcome. At least how it is you only do similar puzzles a couple times at most.
Quote: | The finale was also stupid and fourth wall breaking. The lab was believable, but come on, it was a bit retarded having all these decaying back rooms that just happened to have an exit via a portal somewhere. Also; a pointless room full of pistons. What? Was the same guy who designed Mars Space Station Monster Closets behind this place? |
While I won't argue that the game isn't stupid (because, hey, you're totally entitled to your own opinion), I will say that the ending is intentionally fourth wall breaking if you pay attention to the epilogue at all. Also, the piston room is hardly any worse than what most games put a player through. If you were poking around the game durring the "lab" settings the decaying back rooms would have made more sense and seemed more cohesive to the whole design aesthetic.
Quote: | The final boss fight was also very gamey and stupid too, but hey, who cares because snappy writing, amirite. |
The boss fight is indeed the weakest part of the game. Again, most games fall apart far, far, far before the final boss, and up until then in Portal the game is (mostly) exceptionally strong.
If the game was two to three times longer than it was I would whole heartedly agree with most of your points, but it's brevity lends well to it's weaknesses and hence makes them not so weak. Your venom is perhaps a bit misplaced here and should probably be aimed at something actually bad, not something that you just don't think is the bee's knees like many others do. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Worm .
Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 142
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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You don't fault a theme park for not being a cathedral.
The reason Halflife 2 couldn't be Serious Sam and the reason Portal couldn't be DROD are numerous and obvious. However those two games were fun, unless every game you play needs to convince you you're hardcore.
Winged Assassins (1984) wrote: | I never felt any attachment to my companion cube and I really can't see why people do have such attachments. By the end of that section I just wished that I had a gravity gun so I could shoot it into the oven quicker than walking over and dropping it in. As for the rest of Portal, it became one of those games that I played through twice then couldn't give a rat's arse anymore. |
I think those people are just over exaggerating. I just really liked the joke, seeing as such a dilemma may come up in other games about a character you care about as much as the companion cube. _________________
Exit stage left, exit stage right, there is no place to run, all the fuses in the exit signs have been BURNT OUT |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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more short, punchy games would be a good thing.
imagine a survival horror narrative that lasted two or three hours. _________________
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Funny you should mention that, as I nightmared one up about two nights ago and everyone I've talked to about it said I should make a design document out, which I'm endeavouring to do. I'll see if I can type up an IF piece around it too to give people an idea.
Oh, and you should still give Modern Combat a look in that regard, too, dhex. Shouldn't take one more than 5 hours or so.
I do strongly agree that Half-Life˛ has the best pacing of the series so far, ironically enough in light of the episodes scheme. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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I was gonna post something else here, but then I decided life was short enough as it is.
Dracko! I also had a nightmare recently (well, more of a dream than a nightmare) that I want to turn into a game. _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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i don't have a console and don't play games online so battlefield 2 is out of bounds.
they made a single player for it or something? _________________
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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I think maybe he's talking about the latest CoD? Modern Warfare? _________________
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