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Mario's Balls and Super Mario Land series

 
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Mario's Balls and Super Mario Land series Reply with quote

from (the really, really brilliant) TVTropes site, specifically Getting Crap Past the Radar
Quote:
Super Mario Land 2 for the Game Boy features a world which takes place in a giant robot Mario, with the individual levels in Mario's shoe, head, etc. The theme of the level in Mario's crotch? Balls. Big, rubbery balls.

Looking at this Mario Land 2 speedrun (around 6:06) they're absolutely right. I didn't notice it at the time but it could easily be a goofy anatomical visual pun there.

But mostly, I'm thinking about the tremendous visual upgrade SML2 was over the first. It's kind of like the difference between the first gen of Atari games and what came later, real "how did they DO that" kind of stuff...
Some of it is just a willingness to draw bigger, with visually richer but ultimately much sparser environments. I'm not sure but I think Mario is bigger in SML2 than, say, DK is in DK SNES.

Super Mario Land isn't a bad game but it feels like a rough port.

Wikipedia:
Quote:
The only canon legacy of the game would prove to be Princess Daisy, who makes appearances in subsequent Mario games.

I'm pretty sure she has an inferiority complex though, which is why her tag line in Mario Kart:DD seems to be "HI I'M DAISY"
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First one was just plain weirder, though. The second one has a lot more to with the NES series, even Super Mario Bros. 2. I mean, you have to take down Moai heads and invincible kung fun types while journeying in alien worlds and ersatz China and Egypt stereotypes. And you take down Bowser in a plane.

Also, I miss Rocko's Modern Life.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that SML2 is so much more visually rich, but I feel that SML1 is just a much better game. Anecdote: my father and I drove something like three hours to find the second Super Mario Land game for my birthday. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I beat it within two days.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its been too long since I've played both to really compare them and know which is a better game. SML had that semi annoying "can't run left" which was a trademark of the original.

I thought the Moai heads were a little corny. or at least kind of borrowing from the Gradius series.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could never get over the sloppy controls in the original game, but I really do enjoy how weird the game is, and it's a nice short length for a portable game (but of course, everyone hated that about it when it was released), but I have better memories of SML2 since I actually owned that one, even if it was a much more pedestrian game. Also, the introduction of Wario!

I could never get into SML3, for some reason.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
SML had that semi annoying "can't run left" which was a trademark of the original.


that's not annoying, that's focus. there's no reason to run left in a mario game.

i havn't played super mario land 2 in a long time and it seems pretty forgettable in that i've forgotten most of it. the original super mario land, on the other hand, might be the best-constructed game in the series. it's my personal favorite, at least, and i play it from start to finish every now and then. it's built for its platform and works around its limitations. that's the kind of quiet craftsmanship r&d1 made itself known for (or would have if they weren't perpetually eclipsed by the golden boy, miyamoto).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
kirkjerk wrote:
SML had that semi annoying "can't run left" which was a trademark of the original.


that's not annoying, that's focus. there's no reason to run left in a mario game.

I don't know. On the original it felt like some kind of technical rather than design consideration. In this version, I remember at least one place where I was a little irritated about being forced to take either the low road or the high road but not being able to choose.

Quote:
i havn't played super mario land 2 in a long time and it seems pretty forgettable in that i've forgotten most of it. the original super mario land, on the other hand, might be the best-constructed game in the series. it's my personal favorite, at least, and i play it from start to finish every now and then. it's built for its platform and works around its limitations. that's the kind of quiet craftsmanship r&d1 made itself known for

It has a distinct look and tile feel, I'll grant that. Still I can't put aside the technical achievements of the sequel.

I should go back to the first, see how much of the muscle memory remains. I can certainly hum the theme song more than I can anything from 2.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I forgot... the temple music from SML1 is awesome.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All these years later, though, I'm still not sure about the can-can.

It does add to the game's weirdness, at least.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first time I owned SML I "borrowed" it from an elementary school friend. I still feel bad for not giving it back, but I can't say I have regrets about it.



I've been thinking about it, trying to pinpoint what it is I didn't get out of Mario Land 2. While it's technically solid, doesn't feel like a real Mario experience to me. The whole thing seems too cute and breezy, kind of like the unengaging bits of SMW.

It's like, at least when SMW took a break on level design it gave you something amazing to look at/experience - like the Dolphin Bit on the top of Vanilla Dome. And sadly, SML2 takes a cue from SMW's map based world without really giving the player much to explore. You could take out Mario Land 2's level and slap them on to a selectable list without changing things much, but if you did that to SMW you'd be ripping out its heart and soul.

Also, they may have "fixed" the jumping physics in SML 2, but the whole experience of navigating around enemies in this game just feels way too "soft". Mario is less unwieldy in some ways, but that essential tension is never there, like it is in other Mario games, even the easier ones. I want to say that it feels like playing Kirby's Dreamland without any of the things that make that game engaging (in that case, Kirby himself).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, uh, actually prefer the physics in SML to the "big" games. Except for SMB3, maybe. They feel more... SNKish, whereas the EAD games feel kind of Capcomish.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SML2 just seems to play it safe, really. You've got your themed worlds with not much going for them and ultimately, it's not particularly challenging or memorable in its level design.

Could the "blocky" appeal of SML1 tie into the popularity of Tetris back in the day, I wonder?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
SML2 just seems to play it safe, really. You've got your themed worlds with not much going for them and ultimately, it's not particularly challenging or memorable in its level design.


I do remember enjoying the introduction of Wario as a kind of antichrist Mario.

Also, the level design where Mario seems to be shrunk is kind of engaging.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

super mario land has one of the most memorable soundtracks in the series. part of it is the can can, the rest is hip tanaka.

super mario land has the same basic elements of the original super mario bros., but it does a lot of things with them that no other entry in the series does: paths that can only be accessed by a small mario, coins that can be collected by bouncing fireballs. just look at the way the game keeps reusing the same basic bonus room templates with minor alterations that totally change how the room plays. the shooter stages are surprisingly natural: it's just super mario flipped on its side. this is savvy stuff.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I mentioned somewhere that the world 2 (UFO, fish bones, bridges) music sounds like a chiptune version of a lost song from Revolver. Maybe Rubber Soul.

And yeah, SML really takes apart and uses the level structure and some of the key concepts from the first game in a way they're never explored elsewhere. Slightly in New SMB. That's about it.

I mean, fireballs are such an oddity; they don't fit the SMB concept very well. They feel more like a concession than anything. Loading this extra property onto them, though -- tied more closely to the game's premises -- makes them incredibly significant and opens up the whole game's range of possibilities. Also, it's weird that the series makes so little use of Mario's size issue, considering it's one of its most distinctive and powerful quantities.

Interesting also that a big part of what SMB3 picks up on is the semi-relevance of the fire flower. Hey, it's fun to get new abilities -- so let's pile in a million more! And... yeah, it is fun. It does its own thing, and has its own new focus, and that's enjoyable. It's still a little beside the point of the first game, though.

I think that's why I like SMB3 so much -- a game which, on the surface, it feels like I shouldn't like much. It's because, though it dances on the trappings of the original game, it uses that framework to do something really different and really frivolous, and just to glory in that. And likewise, that free spirit was tempered just enough by the underlying template to give it a sense of structure and purpose and momentum, even as it faffed around the edges.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any links to those tunes, aderack?


and how can i go back and play gameboy games without a gameboy?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are looking for an official way to play SML or other old Gameboy games without playing it on a brick, just getting your hands on any old Gameboy Advance should do it, and I'm pretty sure the Gamecube's Gameboy Player plays them too. And heck, getting a cheap SUPER GAMEBOY for an SNES does the trick too, if you want to play them on a television.

Now, if you are looking for unofficial means, uh, PM me?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I already knew what I thought about these games because I'd heard Dessgeega and Aderack talking about them before, and that's pretty much how I formulate all my opinions. But also, it's what I thought, too. I remember playing SML on 'bring your toys to school day' and all the kids had their own take on it and knew where all the secrets were. SML2 never captured the nation's kids imaginations in the same way. It's cute, but not really compelling. I like picking up a carrot to become Usagi Mario, though.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked SML, but it was disappointing from a technical level. Mario is really small and a lot of the game is ugly. If I went back today where, comparitively, all GB games are kind of ugly, I'd probably appreciate it more. The music was incredible.

SML2 seemed to be more what I was looking for, but it's the one game I literally couldn't play. Mario is so big and controls so bad and the screen blurs so much that the game just felt terrible to play. It's so frustrating and misses the point so much that it really doesn't even feel like a Nintendo game.

SML3 is my favorite in the series and probably my favorite game in the Warioland Series altogether. In theory it should be as blurry and unweildy as Mario Land 2, but because they changed to Wario and gave him a much more potent verb set it's a lot less frustrating. For some reason what really struck me about it was how at the end of the game you are rewarded differently depending on the number of coins you collected throughout. This type of thing is pretty common now, but at the time, getting a higher ranking at the end than my cousin made me feel like I was good at videogames even though I was playing a single player game that was meant to be beaten.

So that's my experience with the series. I should go back and play SML2 to see if it's still as bad as I remember.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't Hip Tanaka one of the eight thousand composers in Brawl?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes! he was a surprise addition because he's management now and doesn't (as far as i know) generally work on game soundtracks. he's contributing a pretty snazzy donkey kong remix. maybe more! (i've been avoiding news on smash bros. since the game was released in japan.)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's right. Isn't that remix up on the site? I seem to remember being impressed with it, so it must be!

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/music/music15.html

YES! And it was awesome! I'd love for this to play in the Mario Bros. stage.

I just remembered that there's a Tanguy version of at least the level 1 and 3 overworld theme from SML By default it's also kind of Beatlesy, if less blatantly than the level two one. Tanguy has kind of White Albumed it up, though. Check it out.

http://www.miniclash.com/tuo/
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So okay. I mentioned that I like the physics in Mario Land better than in the other Mario games, pretty much. Part of that is because of how much less strict they are. You can wedge yourself under low overhangs by running and ducking over and over, or by repeatedly jumping once caught under the edge -- sort of like the wall-door business in Metroid 1. I like how quickly Mario falls. I like how easy it is for me to jump on enemies' heads. If I come at an enemy horizontally, positioned slightly higher, then I win. It's like Joust.

Overly "tight" and polished controls often strike me as really constrictive. Controls don't need to be too refined; they just need to be responsive. I want to feel like I'm kind of making things up as I go along based on a few rough concepts, not like I need to practice over and over to pull off wild stunts perfectly. If I don't get something just right, I want to be able to pick away and maybe force it sometimes. If I can't do it all the time, or if it sometimes makes things even worse, all the better. It's like this added level of dynamics, beyond the stated "rule book".

Which goes some distance, I think, to explain why I don't really care about any Mario games made after 3; from World on, the focus shifts almost entirely to the joy of pressing buttons and playing a videogame. And... well. That isn't inherently interesting to me. Yes, videogames exist. That's nice. I have, however, gotten over the fact.

I enjoy screwing around with the suits in SMB3, and subverting the game's apparently straightforward structure. I enjoy all the weirdness in SMB2us. I've already talked about Land. Now that I've gotten past the presentation and the feel of the game, I like a lot of what Yoshi's Island does. These games all do conceptually involving things with the basic template.

I don't really find the mere concept of playing a videogame exhilarating in its own right, though. I've said a lot of times that this expectation on the part of a lot of developers is what I see as one of the bigger problems with the state of the form right now.

Just noticing how these things tie together. Never mind me!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aderack wrote:
I don't really find the mere concept of playing a videogame exhilarating in its own right, though. I've said a lot of times that this expectation on the part of a lot of developers is what I see as one of the bigger problems with the state of the form right now.


yes. this is the mentality that gives us the notion that an eighty-hour-long game is better than a one-hour-long game.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's ironic is that the longer a game is, the less inviting it is to play in its own right. Shelves, dust, counter-example in Dead Rising, etcetera.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be happy if this forum was just you two, having conversations like this and agreeing with other.

Speaking of Dead Rising, do you agree with my theory that the endless mode in Dead Rising fails because the only practical way to survive is to avoid zombie-related activity? Because of your health that diminishes over time, the only way to win is to find a good place to hide with a clear run to a supply of food (e.g. on top of the shelves at the supermarket) and to avoid dealing with zombies as much as possible.

Since the whole joy of the game comes from slaughtering zombies, a better system would have been to have rewarded the player with food for zombie slaughter- say, you get an orange juice for every 100 zombies you kill, and that's the only way to replenish your heath. You also get penalized for 'stale moves', so after every 100 zombies it'll grade your performance and bestow food accordingly, with orange juice being the best possible reward and the worst would be British food like Cow's Eye Porridge and Grey Whisker Mash that only restores half a point and makes you bilious. I think that would be a far better system.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
aderack wrote:
I don't really find the mere concept of playing a videogame exhilarating in its own right, though. I've said a lot of times that this expectation on the part of a lot of developers is what I see as one of the bigger problems with the state of the form right now.


yes. this is the mentality that gives us the notion that an eighty-hour-long game is better than a one-hour-long game.




wow and we are not having this discussion in the exhilaration thread because ???


really, it makes me feel good when people talk in my thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my brick Game Boy a couple of weeks ago specifically to play Super Mario Land. I didn't want to emulate it; I wanted to play it exactly as I remember it—blurriness and all. I haven't found a copy around here yet, but I will!

The music in that game is just sheer joy—that really is the best way to explain it. I had the SML main theme in my head for about a week. It was a constant distraction; I was whistling it while walking down the street, I was tapping out its rhythms on my desk at work—it was incessant. That's what drove me to get the Game Boy—to purge this demon from my head!

Anyway, a developer friend and I keep talking about short games and whatnot lately. I love that I can pick up SML and know I can experience it to completion in one go. It somehow adds a lot to the package.

I also agree with you, Wes, about the general un-Nintendo quality of Super Mario Land 2. I thought that exact thing when I played it back in the day.

Oh—I have the Nintendo comic where Tatanga and the baddies from Sarasaland come out of a Game Boy and invade an American shopping mall. I can post scans if anyone wants!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I like the creepy dude with the mustache, who the Game Boy people talk to.

I read that comic over and over, back in the day.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



You can barely see the "not intended for children" printing at the bottom of the can.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that comic is the best videogame comic ever written.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scans please
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Harvey, edless mode in Dead Rising works because the zombies are just sort of there, as a threat in numbers enough that you don't want to mess with them but that they are easy enough to avoid, and that food items don't respawn and since the zombies don't have food the zombies become something of a backdrop that nobody wants to engage while the human beings rip each other to shreds. The zombies just facilitate this in a semi-romero way.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why couldn't I be arsed to play it?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because you wanted more of the beating down zombies in novel ways that the main game provided?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well yeah exactly. I wanted an endless version of the demo, basically, but without the aimless, counter productive feeling you eventually get from just playing the main game and ignoring the quest. And, my system would put the sweet zombie kill counter to good use, too You'd have to block off the parking garage though, since it's possible to rack up like 38,000 kills driving back and forth through that thing.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
aderack wrote:
I don't really find the mere concept of playing a videogame exhilarating in its own right, though. I've said a lot of times that this expectation on the part of a lot of developers is what I see as one of the bigger problems with the state of the form right now.


yes. this is the mentality that gives us the notion that an eighty-hour-long game is better than a one-hour-long game.

It's interesting to hear you two talk about this, particularly because Dessgeega is one of the few people I know who is still willing to play games for score. I consider this the epitome of "playing games just to play games." That's not a slight, I actually find it pretty admirable, but it's the truth.

When we talk about wanting short games it's important to differentiate between wanting short games because we just don't have time for long games and wanting them simply because we don't want the developers to artificially extend game length without the inspiration to actually make the game interesting the whole time. They're both valid reasons of course, but there's some sort of line that needs to be drawn.

I liked Portal and I appreciate that they didn't waste my time with bullshit, but in the end I really felt like they let the story dictate the game length and ran out of ideas before they could ever really take advantage of potential puzzle designs. They tack these on the end as optional puzzles, but I haven't touched them yet because they're not attached to a "game" anymore. Is that how we really want games to be constructed?

-Wes
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure!

me wrote:
Well yeah exactly. I wanted an endless version of the demo, basically, but without the aimless, counter productive feeling you eventually get from just playing the main game and ignoring the quest. And, my system would put the sweet zombie kill counter to good use, too You'd have to block off the parking garage though, since it's possible to rack up like 38,000 kills driving back and forth through that thing.


In fact: remember the 2D Grand Theft Auto where you sort of play the city like a pinball table, and it's all about getting high scores? That's what I wanted Dead Rising's endless mode to be. But focused around the killing of zombies, of course.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
SML2 just seems to play it safe, really. You've got your themed worlds with not much going for them and ultimately, it's not particularly challenging or memorable in its level design.

Could the "blocky" appeal of SML1 tie into the popularity of Tetris back in the day, I wonder?


Exact same tiles. They even share SFX, like the "baaaa" and pause noises.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obvious when you mention it. I need to replay it all over again.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone ever tried to hack Super Mario Bros. to remake Super Mario Land?

Doesn't seem like it would be that hard. The toughest thing would be the music.

Might have to scale down the enemy types, and get rid of a few weird features like the shooting stages.

Fireball physics can be tweaked with a Gameshark, even.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aderack wrote:
Has anyone ever tried to hack Super Mario Bros. to remake Super Mario Land?


has anyone tried to hack a toaster to shoot lasers?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's... that's something i'd like to see.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in this country, not now.
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aderack
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
has anyone tried to hack a toaster to shoot lasers?

Are you suggesting this wouldn't be an interesting experiment?
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it'd be interesting. The Mario Bros. hack and the toaster thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Super Mario Land doesn't do much for me. It has charm and melodies and weirdness, but below that coating it doesn't have the imaginative design -- the spatial relationships, the structural subversions, the surprising consequences of abilities and objects -- that's made Mario play in such magical ways, all while being smugly logical about it. Land's use of small Mario as an advantage is interesting, but barely explored from what I remember. Even NSMB seemed to do more with size in the first couple worlds I played. Maybe the worst thing I could say about Land is that outside the presentation it feels like a generic obstacle course... and ending the game on an anticlimactic shooter stage doesn't help.

I don't think I've played SML2 or 3. Wario Land II does some interesting things with ambiguous abilities that perfectly characterize Wario and parallel the equally ambiguous story.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I've never noticed anything very special about the way that Super Mario Bros. plays. It's always been very frustrating to me, whereas Super Mario Land is welcoming. I'm assuming you're talking about a higher level of play, like all the tricks you can (theoretically) do with the physics?

The only really accessibly neat thing about Super Mario Bros.' mechanics, that I can think of offhand, is the way you can basically ignore one-block-wide gaps so long as you don't stop running.

The main reason I'm curious about hacking SMB with Mario Land's trappings is I'm curious how the different physics would affect the way it plays.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aderack wrote:
The only really accessibly neat thing about Super Mario Bros.' mechanics, that I can think of offhand, is the way you can basically ignore one-block-wide gaps so long as you don't stop running.


I think maybe the problem is we take all the neat things in that game for granted now. I like how you can kill the mushroom men by jumping on their heads, and kick the turtle shells around.
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got through beating Super Mario Land. Scored over 300,000 points (meaning I got three continues that I didn't use) and had 15 lives left over.
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