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this is a really excellent ultima underworld retrospective

 
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did you play ultima underworld?
yes
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
no
44%
 44%  [ 4 ]
played it? i lived it, motherfucker!
33%
 33%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 9

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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: this is a really excellent ultima underworld retrospective Reply with quote

http://blog.pjsattic.com/corvus/2008/01/notm-ultima-underworld-the-stygian-abyss-introduction/

though i'm not totally sold on what "ludic" means. i may just be dumb, though.
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Corvus.E
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link and the kind comments.

You're not dumb! Ludic, from the latin ludus, is a rather academic word meaning "play." People who study videogames as games are generally called ludologists and people who study videogames as stories are generally called narratologists.

I, on the other hand, don't have a convenient term for myself because I believe that the gameplay itself is capable of being a storytelling device. And since I walk with one foot in the academic world and the other in the development world, my terms tend to borrow heavily from both disciplines.

Hope that helps! Now if you'll excuse me, I ought to get back to work on the next two posts in this series for tomorrow and Friday!
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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well thanks for stoppin' by!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term is used quite commonly in French too.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the most-cited (and I suspect least-read) pre-videogames study of games was Huzienga's Homo Ludens*, which mostly talks about how games are related to the importance of the ritual in human society and I suspect is the primary source for the use of ludens/ludic/ludology to describe the study of videogames.

* - Which, amusingly enough, has the basic fractal that's used for the Triforce on the cover of one of the editions, along with other "game" symbols such as spades, etc.
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Corvus.E
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeepers. Amazon has a copy of that for over $1k. That's a first edition, of course. I'm going to have to pick this up (the reprint which goes for a mere $22).

I've based a lot of my theories on Umberto Eco's semiotics theories. In particular his essays on open texts.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i read part of homo ludens cause it popped up in a robert anton wilson novel. should i go back and finish it? (i.e. is it as unread-and-oft-quoted as the structure of scientific revolutions is?)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

out of service
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
i read part of homo ludens cause it popped up in a robert anton wilson novel. should i go back and finish it? (i.e. is it as unread-and-oft-quoted as the structure of scientific revolutions is?)


I would say no.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corvus.E wrote:
You're not dumb! Ludic, from the latin ludus, is a rather academic word meaning "play." People who study videogames as games are generally called ludologists and people who study videogames as stories are generally called narratologists.


i'm not sure i buy that this distinction exists.

roger caillois used the term "ludus" to refer to the development of rules and order in a game: when trying to throw a ball into a basket with your friends becomes the nba, for example.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It exists within the academic study of videogames, trust me. There are whole new academic fields springing up, based on the work of Caillois and others.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is great. I just started playing this game recently. I've not gotten very far, I'm still getting accustomed to the layout and feel and all that, and each time I do I die after playing for an hour or two and forgetting to save.

But I'll get there! My most latest death involved taking food and drink from a campfire in the human stronghold at the beginning and not realising I had pissed them off. I'm just minding my own business getting some much-needed food when BAM battle music (which is awesome by the way). Damned modern videogames. Taught me to take and not ask questions.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The schism in terms of game theory definitely exists. In terms of academics, Henry Jenkins and Janet Murray would be the most notable narratologists and Espen Aarseth is one of the more prominent ludologists. Frasca (who many people would describe as a ludologist) rejects the dichotomy and I'd tend to agree with him, so yeah, while it exists in terms of clashes between formalism, it might not "exist", ho ho ho.

I forget who came up with the term "the emergent narrative of gameplay"; it seems like the best way to describe how the conventional concept of narrative operates in a text that is dominated by an input-output feedback loop*.

I used to write for a ludology-oriented blog: the short-lived Ludonauts.

* - Said loop is described in an article that I have been failing to write for about er, 8 years now.


Last edited by Scratchmonkey on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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dark steve
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ludonauts was a good title.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redeye wrote:


Dude, I wasn't even trying, I can do better.

Seriously, if you want to get into the whole ludology v. narratology mess, those are the names to drop (har har) into Your Favorite Search Engine, because they've produced some pretty entertaining invective as they tear back and forth.
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Cycle
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this retrospective isn't finished yet, dhex why are you a cocktease

It's pretty good so far, yeah. I'm not terribly bothered by all these big words, as long as I know what they mean. Which I'm not sure I do, but whatever.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Frasca (who many people would describe as a ludologist) rejects the dichotomy and I'd tend to agree with him, so yeah, while it exists in terms of clashes between formalism, it might not "exist", ho ho ho.


Yeah, just from my own readings on both, and just my own thoughts, I am inclined to agree. It seems like a false dichotomy that almost was made just to make life easier for the people who are talking about it.
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Corvus.E
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The next post in the series is now live. One more post to go (scheduled for Friday morning) and I'll be done with UW.

Next game on the narrative chopping block is X-COM: UFO Defense.

Edited for HTML cleanup.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
this retrospective isn't finished yet, dhex why are you a cocktease


dude, i work in pr (no, i don't miss having a reflection. why?)

i wanted to help build pre-publication hype, yo. there was no embargo!

i think in part the whole "ludic studies" thing is the wave of the future. nyu is starting a whole game design program that will be half criticism, according to my sources. i'm not entirely sure that's a good thing* but it's inevitable. and will produce a number of interesting vectors, one hopes, though i don't know if it translates into better games.

but my original niggle was that using ludic in place of play seems pointlessly high church, like a bunch of piss in a pail ians pretending to be papists. Smile

* i.e. it's probably hurt the cause of literature since 1950 and definitely helped create a popular notion of "liberal arts" as "people too stupid to do real academic work involving sources and math and real stuff" that is sadly not 100% false by any measure. i was horrified to find out that human headwounds breed in the literature/cultural theory fever swamp, and that they revel in their stupidity to an alarming degree.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I've gone back and forth about using the term ludic. Ultimately I do so because I want to remind my audience (and myself) that I'm suggesting a more academic approach to game criticism.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can understand that as well.

but does your audience? or is it trying to separate "play" from "PLAY" ?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My long time audience gets it, but I've had an influx of new readers who haven't joined me on the journey of the last 3 years... many of whom are questioning my tone and use of terms like 'ludic.' (-_o)

And, yeah, I think it's absolutely appropriate to make a distinction between "play" and PLAY. When I use the term ludic, I'm invariable referring to game mechanics, not the act of playing a game. I also place a lot of importance of the social impact of videogames and feel that, as a storytelling device, it ought to be approached as a bit of a sacred art. The term 'ludus' has long been associated with the use of games as religious and social rites.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Corvus.E wrote:
You're not dumb! Ludic, from the latin ludus, is a rather academic word meaning "play." People who study videogames as games are generally called ludologists and people who study videogames as stories are generally called narratologists.


i'm not sure i buy that this distinction exists.

roger caillois used the term "ludus" to refer to the development of rules and order in a game: when trying to throw a ball into a basket with your friends becomes the nba, for example.


Yeah, I think it's wrong to think of the two seperately.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about Portal, creepy as hell, or amusing black comedy depending on which camp you fall into and bonus only a few hours long!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HOW ABOUT PORTAL CAN GO TO HELL.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:roll:
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:

...

* i.e. it's probably hurt the cause of literature since 1950 and definitely helped create a popular notion of "liberal arts" as "people too stupid to do real academic work involving sources and math and real stuff" that is sadly not 100% false by any measure. i was horrified to find out that human headwounds breed in the literature/cultural theory fever swamp, and that they revel in their stupidity to an alarming degree.


olde, possibly famous

excerpt: "Looking at the field of contemporary literary criticism as a whole also yields some valuable insights. It is a cautionary lesson about the consequences of allowing a branch of academia that has been entrusted with the study of important problems to become isolated and inbred. The Pseudo Politically Correct term that I would use to describe the mind set of postmodernism is "epistemologically challenged": a constitutional inability to adopt a reasonable way to tell the good stuff from the bad stuff. The language and idea space of the field have become so convoluted that they have confused even themselves. But the tangle offers a safe refuge for the academics. It erects a wall between them and the rest of the world. It immunizes them against having to confront their own failings, since any genuine criticism can simply be absorbed into the morass and made indistinguishable from all the other verbiage. Intellectual tools that might help prune the thicket are systematically ignored or discredited. This is why, for example, science, psychology and economics are represented in the literary world by theories that were abandoned by practicing scientists, psychologists and economists fifty or a hundred years ago. The field is absorbed in triviality. Deconstruction is an idea that would make a worthy topic for some bright graduate student's Ph.D. dissertation but has instead spawned an entire subfield. Ideas that would merit a good solid evening or afternoon of argument and debate and perhaps a paper or two instead become the focus of entire careers.

Engineering and the sciences have, to a greater degree, been spared this isolation and genetic drift because of crass commercial necessity. The constraints of the physical world and the actual needs and wants of the actual population have provided a grounding that is difficult to dodge. However, in academia the pressures for isolation are enormous. It is clear to me that the humanities are not going to emerge from the jungle on their own. I think that the task of outreach is left to those of us who retain some connection, however tenuous, to what we laughingly call reality. We have to go into the jungle after them and rescue what we can. Just remember to hang on to your sense of humor and don't let them intimidate you.
"
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

run through the jungle

i'm going to give a crack at installing my old copy of underworld.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a patch available that made both games work flawlessly under XP... Let me see if it works under vista... oh right, of course it doesn't because Vista doesn't seem to support dos programs at all?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOSbox is the answer!

http://www.dosbox.com
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
There's a patch available that made both games work flawlessly under XP... Let me see if it works under vista... oh right, of course it doesn't because Vista doesn't seem to support dos programs at all?


Ooh, wherezat patch?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you go:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ubspd5

Just plop it in the same directory as the UW app, run it, and it will patch it. Works with the second game, too!

Also I hope the last part of this article talks about a certain conversation you have which gets turned around on you.
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