The Gamer's Quarter

[Shapermc]

Yeah, I'm so sorry. I have to say that this is a fault of theirs and in no way yours. When your film/biography is written one day this will all be looked back on as bad on them. Keep strong, and you know i'm there for you.

EDIT: My wife suggested that this sounds very much like discrimination.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[Harveyjames]

Assholes. So why did they kick you out? Any reason given?

[Cycle]

Just remember Dess.

We love you.

And we always will. We'll be here.

I'm also curious as to why you got kicked out. Too much of a TROUBLEMAKER eh? Didn't like someone RAGING AGAINST THEIR MACHINE?

They'll rue the day.
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[Harveyjames]

Yeah, fuck the games industry, seriously

I came up with this on the way to work: The problem isn't YOU, it's YOU-ESS-AY

[purplechair]

I am shocked and appalled.

[Harveyjames]

I'm sorry.

[purplechair]

I'd also like to add to the clamour for an explanation. If that's okay with you!

[Swimmy]

[JasonMoses]

[dessgeega]

basically they asked me to leave because i disagree with the way the school is conducted and i'm vocal about it.

what prompted the meeting was a particular incident last semester (last month) involving oblivion. the assignment was to build a mod for oblivion with a quest and side-quests. i find the quest dialogues and general go-kill-goblins-retrieve-my-family-heirloom gameplay of oblivion tiresome and overdone, so i planned a mod with no combat or dialogue, where the player is guided through the quest by environmental and architectural cues.

i turned it in, after weeks of work, and it failed. so i went to my professor, walked him through my mod and explained my design decisions to him personally, told him that we were not going to agree on what constitutes meaningful gameplay but asked what i needed to do to get a passing grade. he told me, i did it, i got an A on the final project.

but he "got the sense" that i didn't agree with it. which is of course correct. so he went to the director of the school and they called me out for a meeting (and were, as i've mentioned, extremely vague about what the meeting was about, though i had my suspicions).

i have straight As. but what the school's director (final boss) argued is that while in a "normal" school a single student can do her work and whether she passes or fails doesn't affect the other student, at this school (the guildhall at smu, for the record), where most work is done in teams, the attitudes of individuals affect the attitudes and grades of the team.

(never mind that everyone in my team last semester finished our game project and all got high grades. i didn't bring this up because grades were clearly not their issue.)

basically i was kicked out for asking questions. the school's director (whom we'll call guildhall prime from here on) used the metaphor of a military company marching to fort worth. halfway there, you can't ask everyone to go to tucson instead. "questions are dangerous," i summarized.

prime also seemed fond of a metaphor about mathematics. an angle is 180 degrees. that's one of the fundamentals mathematics is built on. you can't argue with it. we've sent men to the moon on the basis of that. i told him i found his metaphor unconvincing but that i saw what he was getting at, because it was obvious.

prime wanted me to tell him by the end of the meeting that i would be withdrawing, but i told him i needed at least a day to talk to the people who were important to me and come up with some idea of where i'm going to go from here. he told me to meet with him tuesday but no later, under threat of my tuition not being fully refunded.

a lot of the things they said were true: i'm not happy here, i'm uncomfortable with the school, my expectations for the school were "misaligned" with the reality of the program. after coming close to quitting numerous times i had decided that despite all of their bullshit i would do my work and finish the program, but when they made it clear they didn't want me there as much as i didn't want to be there there didn't seem to be much point in fighting.

i'm relieved to be done with the school since their program is fundamentally flawed, but i'm also stranded in the middle of nowhere, texas and in debt. i'm still waiting for them to get back to me with a price for the laptop, which i need to get started building my portfolio.

the whole experience has been sickening, but it's strengthened my resolve that these are not the people who should inherit the videogame medium, and i'm going to do everything in my power to create a real future for videogames as a relevant and meaningful art form.
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[Harveyjames]

What a bunch of dicks.

Still, they're refunding you at least part of the money. Really, the piece of paper you get at the end doesn't mean shit, it's the experiences you have working and studying there that are the important things. Since you had a shitty experience, because they are wankers, it was probably for the best.

[daphaknee]

that laptop is fucking sweet though

at least you dont have to make levels for unreal 3 now
ask them to refund you for unreal 3

[FortNinety]

I know I am going to get a TON of flack for popping in and saying the following, but so be it... I just feel it is necessary to defend the school, because in the long run, they absolutely did the right thing.

Speaking as someone who use to work for a college, and taught game design no less, it's pretty much unheard of any school, instead of just putting up with a student who vocally expresses issues with the program and blindly taking his or her money, which unfortunately is the case the vast majority of the time, to not only actually sit down and think about what is right for Dess, as well as... and this is the most important part... his fellow students, but also offer a full refund.

Say what you will about the school's actions, it is first and foremost a trade school, and like all art/design/technical colleges, the primary goal of any institution of the sort is to create an environment that is comparable to the real world, with elements of both the good and the bad. And the bottom line is that they foresaw a future in which there would be conflicts of interest, which even Dess will admit would have been the case. It's one thing if only Dess's ass was on the line, but since making games is such a collaborative effort, others would have been negatively impacted, and that's just not right... regardless of what they do is "right" or "wrong."

I've quietly followed Dess's college education, and have been somewhat confused every step of the way. Instead of going down various bullet points, I'll simply ask how much research he did when choosing this particular school. It almost felt at times as if there was none. Regarding the school's primary motivation to prepare students for an industry by turning them into drones... again, that's trade schools for you. Like it or not. Not saying it's right... it's why I have a problem with pretty much every major video game school out there... but they serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things. But again, is it not common knowledge that this is how things simply "work"?

And this is where I get personal: and no offense to Dess, but I never got the sense that he wanted to truly play ball with anyone. Once you enter a school, no matter who you are, no matter what you did beforehand, you're at the same level as everyone else. Yes, you become just another face in the crowd. That sounds both horrible, but yet can also be quite beneficial. And sorry to show my age, but I can't tell you how many times I had a professor who I thought was an idiot, and even told him or her so, and yet later down the road, even if I still didn't agree to what was said or thought, I was still able to finally see the point behind it all.

I know I'm somewhat rambling, but I'll just wrap it up by saying, sometimes to break the rules, as I believe the Oblivion mod exercise was supposed to, you have to first know the rules. Again, its absolutely commendable that the instructor, after trying to show Dess what had to be done for a A grade, still looked to the future and realize that the relation was not meant to be. More than anything, colleges are money sucking institutions, and they could have acted totally selfish and simply continued cashing those checks.

I guess I don't know enough to already know if Dess had already thought about going to schools like Parsons, which is more up his alley I would think. Despite my personal differences and opinions, Dess has always proven himself to know his stuff... which is why I wondered why in the hell he went down south to "just another game school." Unless they grossly misrepresented themselves here, which I guess could be the case.

Note: I am also a strong believer that no matter how bad things are, there's always a positive to any situation. I myself was never truly happy with the education that was offered at my school, but I stuck in there, doing what I could to make myself better. In the end, as anyone will tell you who has been through the system, projects and letter grades don't mean jack shit... it's the people you meet. It's all about networking. Which I guess is why Dess went to a school in the first place, I would assume.

Ultimately, whenever a student is dismissed, it is hoped that some humility and sense of scope is instilled, but in this case, given Dess's reaction, as well as attitude as exhibited at certain points throughout, I don't think that's the going to be the case. Which is most unfortunate. So I will say this, for the last time: be VERY thankful for the refund.

[daphaknee]

wow thats classy

[dessgeega]

i guess i should be glad you crawled out of your hole to say things to my face instead of taking potshots from your private forums while your friends cheer you on and tell you you're a man, like you usually do. (the male pronouns were a nice touch, by the way.)
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[FortNinety]

Personal insults aside, what do you think of what I've said?

[Mr. Apol]

hey dess way to ignore fort's entire post and notice the male pronouns

(knew that would be noticed (re: psychic powers))

:roll:
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LJ -- Profile

[dessgeega]

[daphaknee]

all things considered i guess it probably wont be a good idea to pursue a job in the industry
at least youve learned that much?

you'll just be making levels you hate for games you hate or cellphone games
you should try to get a job writing or doing something else and just make games in your own time so you can do whatever you want with them

fort hasnt really said anything that hasnt been said throughout the whole thread though apol
and like the whole he thing is pretty tired by now anyway, like its not even a MAD BURN its just ignorant and makes fort look like a hick

i mean jesus we have a woman and a black guy running for president get with the times

[kirkjerk]

Admittedly I have heard everything from Dess' POV but it doesn't sound like she was given a fair shake. The "defense of other students" line sounds a little weak if the former teams got good grades. The refund might be less generosity and more trying to lessen the chance of a lawsuit. As for the gender thing, that's just rude; if there's complexities in a gender history the right and compassionate thing to do is take her judgement on it.
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=/ \(<D)_/
==/\/ >_ kirkjerk.com

[ryan]

I'm not sure what a lawsuit would be filed under. Does anyone here actually know the laws regarding this? I'm not even sure if they are a private or public university. I've only heard of donations from private groups.
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Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

[parkbench]

Let us all take solace in the Scratchware Manifesto. Fuck the industry!
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ich bin aber eine mensch maschine

[aderack]

Well. On the good side, Dess, you've got some first-hand experience now as to what you're up against. Your immediate situation sucks, massively. I'd just sink into depression. You've got some anger to use, though! And you do know some reasonably influential people. So maybe in the long run this will help to launch you in a direction exactly suited to what you actually do give a damn about.

I'm not precisely sure what Erin is up to now (kind of awkward, especially since I don't even talk with Lan much anymore), but look at that EA Spouse business a few years back.

You could try writing an article about your experiences, and try to get it published somewhere. Not even in a game industry publication, though I imagine GamaSutra would take it. Something like the Christian Science Monitor or Salon, maybe?
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[dessgeega]

another guildhall dropout wrote about the experience for gamecareerguide, so i imagine they're open to that sort of thing. or they'd tell me it's already been done.
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[aderack]

Oh. Was it a similar experience to yours?

I seriously think something NPR-ish (mainstream liberal humanist) would be interested. Jon Blow was recently interviewed for NPR, I understand. Don't know any more details than that; what program, what context, whatever.

And, you know. Better to open the window and reach out to real people than tug at the cuffs of industry drones.
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[Harveyjames]

*Post removed by mod for being nothing but an insulting personal attack.*

[helicopterp]

[aderack]

Yeah. Man, I wonder how you get in touch with Terry Gross

EDIT: Oh. http://www.npr.org/contact/
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[bleak]

Hey Dess. Sorry to hear that things didn't work out but you are taking it like a champ and in the immortal words of Gene, that's what I expected from you. Anyway I have shown far too much emotion on this here internet forum! bye
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[Harveyjames]

[kirkjerk]

At the risk of using a friend's time of trouble as a platform for our usual self-indulgent talk talk talking... (actually maybe this isn't such a bad thing)

[JamesE]

This thread has had me gritting my teeth for a long time now, but since we've broached the unplesantness and I don't really like gritting my teeth, have at you:

Dess, are you humanly capable of admitting you're falible, or working in a team enviroment with people who aren't blowing smoke up your arse? I've seen no signs, ever, that you're capable of considering yourself as anything other than a great artiste come to rain your mana (in the form of click n' play fan games) on the ignorant masses. No hyperbole.

You joined, as Matt pointed out, a trade school. A means to make money. You did not join some little art commune. It was a thing that existed, before you arrived. It had a professional goal and purpose. It was voluntary.

I'd imagine most people there joined to get a job afterwards, and make a living. When you strip down all the luxuaries and pretenses of human society, that's all anything alive ever wanted: a living. Most of the people still there probably just want jobs. That does not make them scumbags. 80% of popular media ever (probably more) was put out to make a buck. Sometimes there's joy in it, sometimes not.

The point I'm getting to: the people you worked with did not need eco-anarchic lessons in how to rip sprites out of Temco arcade games to make terribly subversive games about their own pet social issues. They needed a sound, firm basis in the real fucking world, because that's where all their bread is coming from. Can they still be artists? I know a really great musician who's doing final exams to be an electrician. Every now and then we'll talk about how he should dash off some corny dance tracks to make a quick buck. He's still capable of art, but he understands you gotta make a living.

That is what the school was there for. It's form, it's function. And since this thread started I've watched you thrash against it, selfishly, uncritically, blindly. You are so in love with yourself you cannot just sit back and be a goddamn human being doing a thing for a crust. It goes beyond mere artistic pretense to narcissistic personality disorder:

[kirkjerk]

[JamesE]

Reading the article past the dsm, I'm actually feeling considerably more sympathetic. towards however you must be feeling. The tone of the above outburst is probably as unhelpful to you getting past this as insulating you from criticism, and I apologise (sincerely) for that.

The point stands, though: you do seem to be extremely resistant to the concept you could ever be falible, or imperfect. Feeling falible or imperfect is shit, but it's everyday shit. It's not the end of the world. Not everyone gets to be a legend, and sometimes we need to submit to the authority of people with experience, or be guided.
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[Intentionally Wrong]

Since we're venting: there are trade schools and there are trade schools. One phrase, two connotations. A trade school is a place you can go to learn a trade, yes, but THE GUILDHALL AT SMU is not a place you go because you're broke and unemployed and by god, you just need to put food on the table. It is where you go when you want to "break in" to the industry.

As is so often the case where the phrase "break in" is concerned, there's a racket involved. These people are not Mother Teresa, distributing food and shelter to Africans with a bleak future. They are drawing people from across the country to enroll in their programs, not for simple subsistence but for that golden dream--the chance to make games! So awesome, dude!

The people enrolling in these programs are rubes. Speculators. Entranced by talk of gold, but when they arrive in California, they're stuck in a mine with no fortune to be found. There is nothing narcissistic in noticing that what's being peddled isn't what you wind up with. So get off your high horse.

(EDIT: Kirk said everything I wanted to, but better.)
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Okay!

[kthorjensen]

[kirkjerk]

[JamesE]

[FortNinety]

Well I guess my opinions now truly don't mean a damn, since its been agreed upon that I'm a grade-A, number one homophobe.

All I can say about the cheap-shots direct at Dess's gender, is that I guess it was foolish of me to think that everyone would remember our very public battles in the past, which mostly happened at the old IC (actually, I forget if it went that far back) and SB. So all I can say to Dess is that, I'm sorry to say, earlier this morning I got a call from my doctor to tell me that I have a clean bill of health, meaning no cancer or whatever horrible disease you once wished upon me, so long ago.

Anyway, not surprisingly, K Thor is the clean voice of reason here, short and to the point. Given his background, as not only a game designer but artist, it should not be discounted.

I've also taken the liberty of passing along this thread to two colleagues of mine, both of whom teach game design, one for a fairly reputable trade school, and the other for a more traditional fine art & design institution that has been teaching game creation for the past ten years now. I'm hoping they might be able to register and shed some light on the subject, and without all the vitriol that my previous post has had, meaning that they will be listened to. Especially when it comes to student rights and the legalities involved, which as when a lawsuit is valid.

[kirkjerk]

[kirkjerk]

[FortNinety]

[Mr Mustache]

Jesus, Guildhall is part of SMU? Seems like you set yourself up for failure.
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Straight up

[JamesE]

[Mr Mustache]

If there was ever a hell on earth, it's Dallas County.
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Straight up

[FortNinety]

Perhaps this is not good to share, since I know everyone is going for yet another veiled insult, and I guess I can't blame them, though its not to cause even more fires, but to elaborate on one of James' points...

When I first when to art school, here in NYC, there was kid, a dude, who wore a dress all the time. It had nothing to do with sexuality... he was as straight as they come... but he did it for attention, I'm sorry "to blow everyone's minds!" And I guess that worked where he was from (Kansas I think). But it had no effect in NYC. When someone finally asked what his deal was... and that's why lots of people do what they do, for someone to break down and ask "why?", the response was short and sweet: "Dude, we're in Chelsea [a major gay spot in Manhattan]. Who gives a shit?"

Point being... well several: everyone's unique/different/weird/a freak these days. ESPECIALLY in school. Unless there's solid evidence to the contrary, I'm pretty certain Dess did not get shit based primarily on sexual politics, so I too am confused by the talk of discrimination.

Also, as I already pointed out, Dess' background and credentials probably did not mean shit to fellow classmates or instructors. And why should it? Everyone student should be viewed on equal terms.

As if it needs to be said, but I'll say it again anyway: you don't go to school to learn "stuff", you go there to meet people, to network, to be part of gangs and shit like that.

[kthorjensen]

Gamelab uses a scrum project management system to try to mitigate crunch-focused development (which is a plague on the game industry), but still we are a business. Game production is a business and if you go to a trade school to learn a business than you should think twice before investing anything personally in it because that's retarded. You wouldn't go to electrician's school to do nothing but make Tesla coils. Guess what? The institution sets the curriculum! If you can't operate within the limits of that curriculum, than the school isn't for you. Game design and production on the professional level is an intensely collaborative experience with little to no room for ego.
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did i forget to tell anybody about my stupid fucking book?

[Dracko]

What the fuck does that anecdote have to do with anything, Fort?
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

[FortNinety]

I believe someone was inferring how Dess might have been singled out and given shit for trying to stand out from the crowd. Again, with the whole "it's discrimination!" angle. The other point being, most teachers, have seen it all and are rarely impressed.

EDIT: ... Then again, that is precisely what happened: the administrator foresaw problems down the road and decided to dismiss Dess. Again, I think they handled themselves quite justly.

Also, everything K Thor said about games being a collaborative effort.

[kirkjerk]