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The Adventure Game thread
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Cycle
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:16 pm    Post subject: The Adventure Game thread Reply with quote

Hi!

So I recently put SCUMMVMDS on my... DS and just finished playing through Day of the Tentacle. This game is much better than I remember! I haven't played it since high school and didn't even finish it. Uh, anyway, the dailouge and charaters are all still very fun and amusing, even moreso now that I understand some of the more mature jokes.

But best of all, the puzzles are so solid in this game. Everything works so well in the internal cartoon-logic (they even thank chuck jones in the credits) of the game that I only had to look in a walkthrough twice, and I realised if I just thought a little harder I would have eventually figured it out. Plus there was even a subtle in-game hint system I never noticed when I first played, and all the time travel puzzles were so inventive and etc... what a smashing game!

I also played through Maniac Mansion recently, since I wrote an article on it. I'll scan that article here and post it up once the issue is off the shelves, but all you australians should totally go pick up that issue and read it! Also, buy it! And then buy the next issue because it has a Marathon piece I wrote! I'll let you know when it's on the shelf. I'm a little worried about the Maniac Mansion one since it was so rushed and probably more messy than I remember, plus working in the word limit was hard. I originally wrote a paragraph on the design of the mansion, but cut it down to half a sentence. Not as bad as the marathon one, where I talked about all three games in 800 words, man was that tight. Oh well. You guys can tell me what you think!

Dess, why do you hate LucasArts adventures again! Or was it this style of adventure in general? LA were clearly the top of the genre which I may explain further later!

Anyway, I was going to play another scumm game on the DS, but decided stop playing Bloodlines and play Riven instead, since I never finished it plus I hear it's what Myst should have been. I love Myst, and figuring out the bizarre alien technology, but there are too many stupid puzzles that ruin the spell it had, such as the clock tower one, the switches on top of the elevator, and the entire, uh... that age in the spaceship, which while beautiful, is a little too obvious with it's OK THIS IS A SOUND THEMED AGE, HERE ARE PUZZLES INVOLVING SOUNDS.

Riven has a rather consistently believable world, right? I sure hope so! I also played Uru Live recently. Though I don't like the general easter egg hunt nature of the game, some of the worlds were pretty great, such as that mushroom one (aside from the silly puzzle in the prison section). So yeah. Riven is pretty much the only game that nailed it, right?

LET'S TALK ABOUT ADVENTURE GAMES.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to the new Goblins game.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please explain the appeal of the Gobliiins games! They always seemed charming but I don't think I ever really understood them. Also seemed much more like puzzle games rather than adventure games.

I also understand they steadily got worse because they kept taking goblins away!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
I also played through Maniac Mansion recently

You found it in ...Tentacle, right? Maniac Mansion is about the coolest hidden game in an adventure game, like, ever. And I probably wouldn't have found out about it unless I heard it from a friend since, as far as I remember, there's no indication about where you access it unlike all the other objects in the game.

Quote:
all you australians should totally go pick up that issue and read it!

Is it the new one with Unreal Tournament III on the cover? I would have bought it but I spent my last lot of cash on a different magazine and some chicken dippers and couldn't be arsed to go to the ATM to get more out.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
Please explain the appeal of the Gobliiins games! They always seemed charming but I don't think I ever really understood them. Also seemed much more like puzzle games rather than adventure games.

I also understand they steadily got worse because they kept taking goblins away!


I've only played the first, and the appeal of that is...well, you know back when sites just started to have flash and shockwave junk all over them, and there was a very brief period where it was actually exciting and interesting to click around them and see what everything did, instead of it just being an annoying waste of time?

Well, Gobliiins was that about a decade earlier. It always had something unusual and strange to show you, and the fact that the things it had to show you could sometimes do unexpected damage to your characters was, at the time, a sign of a vicious but playful sense of humor. The novelty of controlling three entities with separate abilities and personalities (certainly not new at that point, but always uncommon), the frequently surreal landscapes and gags, the general character of it all...

I think for a lot of gamers, it became memorable because the realization will eventually dawn that it's not the game that's doing these cruel things to the goblins, it's you, the one who is making them do all sorts of things that they'd probably rather not do. You never stop groaning in frustration when they take damage, but you never stop wanting to make them poke their heads in mysterious holes or annoy sleeping monsters or pull this lever or push that button....

It really speaks to compelling game design, to eventually make the player feel the same sadistic pleasure playing the game that the designers had when creating it.

At least, that's my opinion.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, nah, I'll tell you when it's on the shelves. This month has a flashback on Blood. Also, there isn't really anything from me this issue (last issue had like three million things I wrote, though. Or is it next issue? Christ, I can't remember, it's a busy time of year). Also in the next issue, I'm a FEATURED CONTRIBUTER which means you may see what I look like! On the other hand, they might post a picture of a monkey instead! Actually, it might be the issue after. It's confusing right now since we put out two issues at christmas.

Rero have you actually read anything by me!

Also, yeah, I used the version that's included in Tentacle. You can just direct SCUMMVM to the folder hidden in the DOTT directory and it will treat it as a seperate game.

And yeah, most awesome easter egg, ever. INTERESTINGLY, Maniac Mansion was never officially ported to the Macintosh, but the whole thing got ported over just for the easter egg in DOTT! LucasArts were so good to mac gamers back in the day.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh hey, DIAS snuck in a post there.

I was actually thinking about the game, and yeah, now that I think of it, it's very similar to those flash games we have these days, like Grow or that uh... Samorust? or whatever it is, where it's just fun to click thing around and see what happens, figuring out how it all works together. I guess I was expecting a more traditional adventure game and that's why I was dissapointed.

Your further descriptions makes me want to give them another chance. I think SCUMMVM supports them now, yes? I'll have to plop the first one on my DS (which, as I understand, is the best) and give them a proper seeing to.

Thoughts on riven so far: this sure crashes frequently. Thanks, Vista!

Anyway, from the get go, it's clear they learned a tonne from the previous game, working in the alien technology into an actual plausable world. For example, the underwater pod thing is like a non-stupid puzzly version of the sound maze in Myst. So yeah, amazing world so far, though how much it's open at the start feels very overwhelming at first, unlike the tightly paced hubness of Myst.

I have to also try not to stop and think, or I realised how silly some things are. Why didn't they just build bridges across the lake instead of making this crazy sub! Why does the orb room rotate instead of just having doors where they are needed!

My biggest problem so far are the eye balls. As mentioned, I hate easter egg hunts in games, and this one is what put me off Riven when I first played it. It feels pretty dumb.

Still early days though, and it's looking mostly good so far.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
Please explain the appeal of the Gobliiins games! They always seemed charming but I don't think I ever really understood them. Also seemed much more like puzzle games rather than adventure games.

I also understand they steadily got worse because they kept taking goblins away!


I wouldn't know about comparative quality between the games, as I've only ever played Goblins 3. My sister and I really liked it, though!

It's definitely what I would consider an "adventure game", in that its game mechanics mirror those of other games that descended from text adventures. It also shares one of their common weaknesses of design--obscure, often arbitrary puzzle solutions that result in a "use every item on every object to continue" approach.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Rero have you actually read anything by me!

I don't even know which contributer in the magazine you are!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm the one who gets to review all the reject games each issue! Every now and then I'll have a more interesting piece, though. Also, I'm the freeware guy.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I would also like this issue thoroughly elucidated. Are we talkin' PC Powerplay?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well we ain't talking Hyper, that's for sure.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shh, we have a former Hyper contributor on the boards...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Former, former.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's quite interesting just how many Australians are here. I guess that goes to show just how awesome we are.

Update on Riven: argh, stuff hidden behind the door puzzles! Everything else has been pretty cool so far, though. I should stop and read the book Atrus gave me though, so I get a better idea of the world.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're cooler than the Canadians and better than the poms at cricket.

Keeping it real at the GQ.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh boy, we should totally have an Aussie TGQ meet! I'll autograph copies of PCPP and Patrick can autograph copies of Psychonauts!

Before the Australians take over this thread, Rero! Do you enjoy adventure games? You seem to enjoy FPS games for the most part but hey, so do I and I still enjoy a good adventure!

Also, I think I solved the crashing problem in Riven.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I should play these again sometime. I love them, but they're kind of like games like FFVI for me--I played them so much and so wide-eyed and so much with walkthroughs as a kid that their entire structure is ingrained in my brain; i can't unlearn the puzzles (unless there's a Lacuna, Inc. that anybody knows of), so the experience isn't as...challenging or interesting. though i still love them.

Quote:
Please explain the appeal of the Gobliiins games! They always seemed charming but I don't think I ever really understood them. Also seemed much more like puzzle games rather than adventure games.


I was actually playing through the Gobliiins games a little while back with the express idea of posting a playthrough thread (with tons of pictures!) on TGQ. Maybe I'll go back and do that. It's an interesting little series, with a lot of insipid shit sprinkled among some interesting and cartoonish fun (though the health system was just bleh).

Quote:
I was actually thinking about the game, and yeah, now that I think of it, it's very similar to those flash games we have these days, like Grow or that uh... Samorust?


I think Grow and Samorost are way, way better though. Just to draw that arbitrary line.

Also, obligatory plug to a great, great thread about adventure games. I especially liked the drop of the zarf link, which was new for me, and a very enlightening perspective on the Myst games.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
Rero! Do you enjoy adventure games?

Cycle, I do enjoy adventure games. It's mostly LucasArts but hey, you can't accuse me of not having good taste.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broken Sword: Shadow of the Templars (aka Circle of Blood) was the first adventure game I played which actually felt like an adventure. There was such a sense of scale to everything: the conspiracies, the numerous locales, the collection of bit characters that actually had their own personality and didn't just seem like gatekeepers. Even when puzzles were ocassionally abstract (like the chess board in the well), it was fine because, hey, that's what uneducated people like myselfI would expect from the 14th century.

So, Day of The Tentacle is still amusing? The Monkey Island games still hold a dear place in my heart, but every time I return to them, I am struck by the fact that I don't really find them all that funny any more. I can't even recognise what I found funny in the first place.

I constantly try and play Beneath a Steel Sky on scummvmds, but I always get stuck right near the start. Someone tell me it's worth digging up a walkthrough for.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's ok Rero, most adventure games are crap. Most games of any genre are crap, really. But especially adventures!

I loved Broken Sword when it came out, I played through it with my girlfriend at the time so it was good fun. I never played the second game, bought the second one for the PS2 and got bored of it pretty quickly, and reviewed the most recent which was buggy as all hell. I had to call ALL AROUND THE WORLD because I got stuck at the start of the game and didn't know if it was a retarded puzzle or a bug. Turns out it was the former. Yeah, it was a bit rubbish. Still! The first one was fun!

I'm easily amused, so I found DOTT funny. Moreso than I remember it to be. Plenty of jokes still fall flat, but it gets away with most of them for being weird and quirky enough to make you smile. A few of the gags were really great.

It's been years since I played a Monkey Island game... I don't know if I'd still find them funny.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, come on. That's just cause you've heard the jokes! Monkey Island is definitely funny. Play through the 2nd one if you don't believe me.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're a band of vicious pirates!
A sailinŽ out to sea.
When you hear our gentle singing...
You'll be sure to turn and flee!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:


I'm easily amused, so I found DOTT funny. Moreso than I remember it to be. Plenty of jokes still fall flat, but it gets away with most of them for being weird and quirky enough to make you smile. A few of the gags were really great.

.


That and it's really cleverly written. Going back in time to change the designs for the US Flag to a Tentacle monster so Bernard in the present can grab the tentacle-flag from the top of his roof and give it to Laverne in the future to use as a tentacle monster suit to disguise herself is genius! It's wonderful actually working this out yourself and then doing it, too.

Also I really liked the characters. I'd have loved to have seen more adventures with Laverne, Bernard and Hoagie, even if it's just what they got up to in a normal week.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i thought it was really clever too, but then cabinets came along and burst my bubble and made me think that maybe i'm just stupid Sad

ok, so it is cleverly written! good!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winged Assassins (1984) wrote:
We're cooler than the Canadians and better than the poms at cricket.


That's a bit like saying, 'we're not good at a lot of things'.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

parkbench wrote:
Oh, come on. That's just cause you've heard the jokes! Monkey Island is definitely funny. Play through the 2nd one if you don't believe me.

The second one is my least favourite (Four doesn't count and does not exist). It tries way too hard, ruining the deadpan charm of the first one, and the third one had puzzles and animation on its side.

This seems to be becoming a trend, but here: Maniac Mansion Deluxe and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (One of the best third person adventure games ever, in my opinion - I'll get into that later if anyone asks).

I was supposed to be working on a fan made sequel project, but my services haven't been asked in over a year. Which is sort of worrying, because the last demo had shoddy puzzles and poor dialogue.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

parkbench wrote:
Oh, come on. That's just cause you've heard the jokes! Monkey Island is definitely funny.[

You are probably quite right.

Dracko wrote:
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade(One of the best third person adventure games ever, in my opinion - I'll get into that later if anyone asks).

I'm totally asking! I have not played one verb of this game, and it sounds like it could well rival Broken Sword 1 for scope and general derring-do.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some ones people haven't mentioned:

Grim Fandango is top-notch in everything but the puzzles; they're too obtuse and difficult. Grab a spoiler-free walkthrough and play through it if you ever get a chance - the story and characters are wonderful, and the overall aesthetic holds up very well despite the aged 3D graphics. The soundtrack is fabulous as well.

The NeverHood is another game with a great style but terrible puzzles. The entire game is made out of clay models, and the soundtrack is hilarious. Unfortunately the puzzles are inane bullshit like sliding tiles and memorizing colors and shapes.

The Little Big Adventure games aren't your standard traditional adventure - there's combat and running and jumping, though the emphasis is primarily on standard adventure game stuff. The first one is a little rough around the edges but is great once you get into it, and at the time (1994) I imagine it was quite a technical marvel (full 3D in DOS!) The second one (Twinsen's Odyssey) was my very first PC game, and it's a very big, pretty, fun adventure.

My descriptions of these are kind of lame and uninspired and don't really do them justice, so I suggest checking the games out for yourselves.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Max Cola wrote:
Some ones people haven't mentioned:

Grim Fandango is top-notch in everything but the puzzles; they're too obtuse and difficult. Grab a spoiler-free walkthrough and play through it if you ever get a chance - the story and characters are wonderful, and the overall aesthetic holds up very well despite the aged 3D graphics. The soundtrack is fabulous as well.


Oh of course god yes! Love, love, love. On the contrary, however, I found the puzzles to be quite manageable and in the correct narrative/environmental vein. Can you provide an example of where this wasn't so?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno, I just felt like I kept running into wall after wall when it came to the puzzles. Then I'd look at a solution after a while and kind of say "Oh, that's how?"

Maybe it's just me?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

captaincabinets wrote:
Dracko wrote:
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade(One of the best third person adventure games ever, in my opinion - I'll get into that later if anyone asks).

I'm totally asking! I have not played one verb of this game, and it sounds like it could well rival Broken Sword 1 for scope and general derring-do.

Well, easy answer is: Cook it up under Scumm and see!

I compare it with the first Gabriel Knight game because, in both instances, it delivers on expectations of the character: Knight is a detective, and you do genuine detective work, Jones is an adventurer, and so you go on an adventure, searching through catacombs, sneaking through a Nazi castle, hunting for treasure and so forth. It stays true to the character.

But the reason why it's great is because it impresses upon you a sense of genuine ingenuity, as if you could plan on the get go, because every alternative has been considered. The castle is exemplary of this. In short, it pans out in a linear fashion, but you always feel like you have options. This is a sign of good game design, in my opinion.

And I still say the Neuromancer adventure game is better than the book.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
And I still say the Neuromancer adventure game is better than the book.

Agree agree agree. Although once you get into cyberspace and hacking turns into a joyless minigame it kind of goes downhill.

Re: Gobliiins, the first one is bruuuutal. Because of the stupid health system, you basically are forced to save your game at the beginning of each level, figure out what to do to pass the screen, then load your game and do it without losing any health. There's one place in the game where your health is restored, and you lose it constantly! I can't imagine having the tenacity to put up with that bullshit now, but I beat the thing without a single hint, back in the day.

The puzzles in Gobliins 2 are more obtuse, because you play two characters that don't really have different abilities, but often only one of the characters will do the right thing. Still charming and bizarre as hell, though.

Goblin's Quest 3 is, I think, Coktel Vision's best game. There's one main goblin but there's a whole host of other helper characters that you control -- including, at one point, your own hands, which detach from your arms and punch you in the face. The puzzles, while still relying on insane dream logic, at least have solutions that make a twisted sort of sense.

Woodruff and the Schnibble... man, I tell you, it was just too damn big. The Gobliiins games worked because you had one or two screens that you were dealing with, and you could try everything. Woodruff and the Schnibble didn't have any such constraint, but kept the crazy dream logic. I can't remember anything about it because I slavishly followed a walkthrough the entire way through.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started playing Gobliiins on my DS. It's pretty fun! It doesn't seem too obtuse so far (well it is, but it somehow makes sense), but the health system is pretty stupid, especially since when there is more than one item, one will hurt the player, adding random luck into the game. It's pretty funny seeing them get hurt, though. Does the game save how much health you have with the password system? If so, that's pretty dumb. Very artificial way of adding difficulty to the game! So, that's dropped in later games? Maybe I'll skip to the third game once I'm done with this one.

Riven is still fun, though it's getting a bit complex and frustrating with puzzles that have started spanning across islands. I also hate that pretty much the WHOLE story is revealed once you get catherines diary. Killed all the mystery of the world! Pretty dissapointing and did a good job of killing my motivation to continue.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

captaincabinets wrote:
parkbench wrote:
Oh, come on. That's just cause you've heard the jokes! Monkey Island is definitely funny.[

You are probably quite right.


After playing through Nelly Cootalot (by the way anyone who makes a game of this quality for their girlfriend is simply and utterly win and a prime reason of why I celebrate the birth of the internet), I actually realised you are totally right. Cootalot owes-a-lot to the MI series, and I found it altogether pretty amusing and quite chuckle-worthy in parts. It was then that I thought, hey, that's what it would have been like playing monkey island the first time. So yeah. Top vindication marks to you, sir.

Also, I completed (I would say clocked, but I loathe the word: it feels like you are pointing at a ex-long-term-girlfriend and saying "yeah, I totally hit that") the first two of Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw's Chzo Mythos tetralogy. They are really pretty tight (vital for the trapped horror genre) and the writing, in terms of characterisation, is sublime. The only problem is, well, they're so focussed that the player feels the need for advancement advancement advancement, leading to a situation where any slightest hint of getting stuck leads you to reach for the walkthrough, leads you to immersion-breaking. You just feel that you don't have time to mess around because you need to get to the bottom of the narrative.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GROAN.

Nelly Cootalot is good, though!

Anyway, I've almost finished Riven! I'm about to go PUNCH GEHN IN THE BALLS.

I don't know if I want to bother with the other Myst games. I hear they all vary in quality and I don't really have the patience for adventure games that aren't incredibly tight. Plus Presto Studios made them, right? The Journeyman series is great, but I can't see them making Myst games. What are other peoples thoughts on the rest of the Myst games?

I need to play a Journeyman game again, too.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found Trilby's Notes to be his best, actually. The design and mythos is great, before he decided to jump the shark - though not without some stunning merits - with Six Days a Sacrifice.

When I first played The Secret of Monkey Island, I must have been eight or so. This was right after my first real experiences of PC gaming with Prince of Persia, Wings of Fury and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Virus soon followed (I need to give that a go again). Point is, with that limited and altogether serious and mystical experience - those old games have a mute and sinister quality akin to solitary, in the best sense of the term, dreaming that is difficult to find in more recent games - of the platform, I wasn't prepared for the humour, which was still subtle in form. Hence perhaps why I still consider it deadpan to a degree, and more effective as such. The dark, but vibrant, graphical qualities outweigh some of the more slapstick or absurd jokes.

Nelly Cootalot is great and indeed astonishing and inspiring a gift.

Who here has had a chance to play any of the Blackwell games?

DISCLAIMER: Yahtzee is still a cunt and his games are still contrived!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, speaking of things that aren't shit, I played Monkey Island while I was still very young, too. It made such an impression on me back in the day... but the first adventure game I played was Loom which was perfect for me since it was such a fantastic mystical adventure, plus the music puzzles were easy for me to understand, unlike some of the inventory puzzles in Monkey Island. They both really blew me away with convincing other worlds that I could actually explore and real characters I could talk to and not just blow away.

My dad bought me a bunch of kiddie adventure games too that I really enjoyed. Educational, fun, and just the right difficulty for someone of my age! The ones I remember are Inspector Gadget, Peppers Adventures in Time and Eco Quest II. Anyone play those?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

captaincabinets wrote:
by the way anyone who makes a game of this quality for their girlfriend is simply and utterly win


hey, i did that.

i think my problem with most lucasarts-style point-and-click adventure games is that the emphasis on dialogue. when i wrestle with a puzzle, i feel like it's not based on my understanding of the world but rather on what someone has told me about the world. as an example:

in half-life 2 (which is often an adventure game), there's a ledge out of reach that you need to get to. there's a big plank of wood balanced on some debris. if you stand on one end, you'll find that your weight weighs it down; you can then observe that the other end of the plank is lifted as high as the ledge. when you run across the plank, though, you weigh down that end instead and the ledge is no longer in reach. you can find some cinder blocks in the area: pick them up, let go, and they fall to the ground with a thunk. heavy! stack a few of them on one end of the plank and their weight will keep the other end up so you can reach the ledge.

now, how effective would that puzzle be if looking at the wooden plank caused gordon freeman to say "hmm, a wooden plank. reminds me of the seesaw i played on at home." picking up a cinderblock prompts him to say "hrrgh! sure is heavy!" when you USE BRICKS ON PLANK gordon saunters over to the far end and sets them in place, quipping "now i can reach that ledge!" it's just that one step removed from the experience of the puzzle, of getting your hands dirty tinkering with the world and figuring out how it works and how to make it work the way you want.

the slut leant me a dvd of the new sam & max game, which i'll probably start later tonight. we'll see how that goes.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The great appeal of The Secret of Monkey Island, the reason why it works so well in contrast to its sequel, and what the third game picked up on later, is that it tries to use the genre to its fullest extent: Next time you give it a playthrough, consider how unalike each individual puzzle is.

dess, good call on Half-LifeČ. I feel like I'm playing a piece of interactive fiction when I give it a run, and it is truly conducive to roleplay but also lateral thinking.

You liked Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, as I recall? That's another thing about it as to why I keep it in such high regard: It's LucasArts' first attempts at conversation, so limited, but it meant that it served a very clear purpose to the game and puzzles.

Seriously, guys, the Blackwell games are great for an evening's worth of investigation-based adventuring.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
GROAN.

Groan? Moi? or was that directed at:
Dracko wrote:
Yahtzee is still a cunt and his games are still contrived!

because I can understand why some people would like to eject their breakfast through their mouths at his face. I am not one of these people, though. I have never actually laughed at ZP, but he's harmless enough.

Cycle wrote:
I need to play a Journeyman game again, too.

Journeyman Project: Turbo! It's 300% faster than the original!
I must confess I found these games to be brain-meltingly hard.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
My dad bought me a bunch of kiddie adventure games too that I really enjoyed. Educational, fun, and just the right difficulty for someone of my age! The ones I remember are Inspector Gadget, Peppers Adventures in Time and Eco Quest II. Anyone play those?

I played the first Freddie Fish game! It had no save function tthat I could find, but I loved it nonetheless! On recollection, I was also too old to be playing such a title.

dessgeega wrote:
hey, i did that.

yeah but you have already proven yourself time and time again to already be win

dessgeega wrote:

i think my problem with most lucasarts-style point-and-click adventure games is that the emphasis on dialogue. when i wrestle with a puzzle, i feel like it's not based on my understanding of the world but rather on what someone has told me about the world.


I think I understand what you're saying, but isn't it a little hard to do in a (largely) static, third person, pixel-art environment? I mean, half life 2 has a freedom of verbs that no traditional adventure game could ever match.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, there was another remake of the first Journeyman game (though Turbo is more of a patched release anyway) called Pegasus Prime that was pretty excellent, though it was only released on Mac and on the Playstation.

I guess I should really play more of Half-Life 2, huh. And Last Crusade.

I don't think I ever really noticed that Dess. I'm sure some games do it more than others, but I didn't notice much of that in DOTT (they already had a hint system in the game anyway, via Cousin Ted) and Maniac Mansion had very little dailouge like that, too (there wasn't even a "talk to" function). I could see how it could get annoying if a game did it too much, though!

The new Sam & Max games? Eh, they're alright. Hardly the height of the genre, but entertaining.

Quote:
The great appeal of The Secret of Monkey Island, the reason why it works so well in contrast to its sequel, and what the third game picked up on later, is that it tries to use the genre to its fullest extent: Next time you give it a playthrough, consider how unalike each individual puzzle is.


Oh, absolutely, this is why LucasArts were the king of the genre. Each of their games were built around different ideas and mechanics, and they pushed them. The time travel in DOTT, the multiple characters in Maniac Mansion, the music puzzles in Loom... each game actually felt completely different, unlike say, most Sierra games where the puzzles could be interchanged and no one would know the difference. LucasArts actually experimented and innovated in the genre, which sadly few others did. They had a few duds though, and Grim Fandango was a little too Sierra like for me... fantastic world, story and characters but puzzles that just felt like obstacles and just weren't that interesting.

The Blackwell games, you mentioned them before... remind me about them, will you?

ALSO.

I'm having trouble with the Riven number system. I thought I had it figured out but apparently not! Stupid combination lock.

It's kinda cool that the entire age is like, one giant safe, though. Fits with Gehns character!

EDIT: lol turns out i did figure it out, but when i added it all up i somehow thought 3+10 was 15. WHOOPS.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but what I mean about Monkey Island as a masterpiece is that they achieved that degree of creativity while staying within accepted frames of reference. I'm not saying that neither Loom or Day of the Tentacle's approaches aren't valid, indeed, they're brilliant in their own rights, but Monkey Island got the basics down to a tee and is a pinnacle of the genre.

The Blackwell games are by Dave Gilbert, the man behind The Shivah. They're pure investigation for the most part, as the clues you gather in your notebooks are used as dialogue options as well as objects that can be connected and assembled together to create new ones. In the first game, you play as Rosa Blackwell, who is a loner writer in NYC, and finds herself able to speak with the dead after having dumped her aunt's ashes, via a guide, Joey, who looks the part of a noir detective, and likely died back in those 20s-30s or so. The sequel follows her aunt a few decades back, back before she went insane. The third game takes us back to Rosa, and seems to combine elements from both story arcs so far. We'll just have to see how it goes.

Gilbert has a site where he sells his games. Give the demos a run.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
Yeah, but what I mean about Monkey Island as a masterpiece is that they achieved that degree of creativity while staying within accepted frames of reference. I'm not saying that neither Loom or Day of the Tentacle's approaches aren't valid, indeed, they're brilliant in their own rights, but Monkey Island got the basics down to a tee and is a pinnacle of the genre.


AGREED.

I'll have to make time to play Blackwell sometime, I love adventure games with a heavy emphasis on investigation. Like Bladerunner and Discworld Noir. My back-catalouge of games is already too large, though...

I just met Gehn! I was all like DAAAMNNN when he asked me to link to D'ni first! Also, he is pretty convinving with his honourable intentions!

WHAT DO I DO!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOOK INTO YOUR HEART
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turns out I didn't have to choose! Kind of dissapointing, I liked how you have the opportunity to trust the bad guys and screw yourself over in Myst. I mean, they handled it so you didn't really have the chance to side with him which was clever, but I still would have appreciated that freedom to screw myself for trusting someone else! It's what the medium is all about! Oh well. Also, apparently a bunch of puzzles are random in Riven, so you can't do the FINISH THE GAME IN 30 SECONDS trick like with Myst, but I guess that's understandable!

Oh, I also wish there was more stuff there was there just because it was there. Too many things are there to help you progress. I was dissapointed that the hanging pit was actually used to help you reach another location, instead of just being an example of Gehns cruelty.

Anyway! Good game! Turns out most of the stuff which I thought was just stupid puzzles had a real reason behind them. It's funny, I was talkign to someone while playing it and he kept saying "how did you go with the stone puzzle" and like that and I was like "what puzzle?" because at no real point did they actually feel like artificial puzzles. They felt like they had real purpose. They did a real good job on this game!

The ending doesn't set-up any real sequel and wraps everything up pretty nicely, so I think I'll skip the next few games, even though I have a copy of Exile.

Oh, hey, I hear you can actually die and stuff in this game? How? I never saw an opportunity to do so. I mean, apart from using the trap book on yourself.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was waiting for you to say 'captaincabinets are you getting fresh with me'
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

harvey this is serious business, there is no time for romantic escapades.

oh hey, i have a title! i guess i better work on the third mac installment today since i have the day off.

guys what should i play next! I should really finish planescape torment or perhaps buy half-life 2 but i dont know what system to buy it for and yeah Sad

actually i still have LAST EXPRESS, SANITARIUM and FAUST: SEVEN GAMES OF THE SOUL to play, sticking with adventure games.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

play the last express, it's fantastic.

i think figuring out the rivenese numerical system is probably the best puzzle ever implemented in a videogame.
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