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I want to appreciate horizontal scrolling shooters.

 
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extrabastardformula
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:02 pm    Post subject: I want to appreciate horizontal scrolling shooters. Reply with quote

Please give me reccomendations and offer a notion of why they work since I'm trying to piece together why I seem to be unable to get into hori shooters much at all (recent exceptions have been the playstation R-Type games and old exception is sky Kid) despite loving vertical ones so much.
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jjsimpso
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the exact same problem! I never could get into Border Down and the Gradius games I've played make me want to tear my hair out.

It seems to me like horizontal shooters stress environmental hazards and confined spaces a lot more than the vertical ones. Combine this with a larger hit box and it results in a more methodical style of play which I just can't seem to get into. Also, it seems more horizontal shooters have weapon upgrades which you lose when you die, but maybe that is just because more shooters back in the day were horizontal.

Having said all that, I love Thunder Force IV. It is challenging but not incredibly difficult, and although you lose weapons when you die, it isn't nearly as bad as something like Gradius. The levels also scroll up and down a little, so maybe that alleviates some of the claustrophobic feelings I get when flying spaceships through narrow corridors Smile
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gradius V, maybe?

It does have the larger hitbox, confined spaces and the losing power-ups when you die (although you can pick your options back up when you invincibly re-spawn; however, it's got a great variety of play styles and it's so damn pretty and smooth that you don't really mind dying a lot as you figure the game out.
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sediment
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really like parodius!

sexy parodius isn't bad either. Embarassed
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Fred
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Darius

Despite being an anagram and derivative of Gradius... I don't know. I guess it's exactly like Gradius but easier; and there's a branching set of levels instead of a linear progression; and you can capture the enemy ships; and you fight a giant robot space coelacanth; and you will SEE THE CREATION OF NEW LIFE. It's fun!
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Pink Teddy Bear
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Super Spacefortress Macross II- Arc/SNES
Any Gradius game
Any Parodius game
Any Thunderforce game
Any R-Type
Phalanx - SNES
Gaiares - Genesis (Be sure to get to level three before giving up on this one)

Arg, gotta leave for work, when I get back though I'll have a lot more for ya, and be able to tell you why they rock.
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Ethoscapade
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

play gradius v before you play any other other gradius game. seriously.

blazing star is pretty accessible.

EDIT re below post: delta is very enjoyable and accessible too.

i know you specifically mentioned horizontal scrolling shooters; the macross game mentioned above is, i'm pretty sure, vertical, and while we're on that topic it along with any (strikers?) 19xx game come plenty highly recommended.

aaand edit again now that i've noticed that you specifically mentioned 'the playstation r-types;' suffice it to say that you're probably on the right track.


Last edited by Ethoscapade on Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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squidlarkin
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R-Type Leo is the most enjoyable of the series, from my experience. This may or may not be because it's easier. Also thirding or fourthing that Gradius V is wonderful.
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Pink Teddy Bear
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethoscapade: It's Horizontal, trust me, I know my shmups. You're probably thinking of the first Super Spacefortress Macross. Though, I will say if you're looking for a vertical Macross, I'd go with Macross Plus over Super Spacefortress Macross.

I'll update my list in a few hours with a lot more shmups, as well as the good/bad parts of them.

Also, just a quick note, when I say "Any (name of game here)", the golden rule of, "newer is better" pretty much always applies to shmups, so play the newest iteration of the games mentioned if you can.
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friedchicken
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should check out Progear no Arashi!
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

friedchicken wrote:
You should check out Progear no Arashi!

This was going to be my recommendation.

Basically, hori stgs are quite a bit different and paced completely different than most vertical stgs. I was going to also recommend Border Down, but that's already been discredited so... I don't know what to say. Progear is a vert stg that fell on it's side. The PSP sequel to Samurai Aces by Psikyo is also a vert shooter that fell on it's side. You'd probably like those best.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sediment wrote:
i really like parodius!

sexy parodius isn't bad either. Embarassed


There's a special gun in one of the Parodius games which just fires nonsensical phrases, which I used to think was brilliant. If only I could remember what the phrases were!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHAVING IS BORING!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play Hyper Duel. It's by Tecnosoft and plays like a more streamlined and better version of Thunderforce IV. The bosses are really nice looking too though they tend to suffer from cardboard cutout syndrome but it's excusable unless you really hate cardboard cutout bosses with every inch of your being.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eco Fighters (Arcade): A shooter with an unusual control scheme. There's a rod protruding from your ship that has a cannon on the end. You fire bullets from that cannon, and you can rotate the "arm" around your ship 360°. You can charge your shot, and this forms an energy ball around your cannon, so in affect you can swing a huge ball of death around your ship and just ram into enemies, pretty fun. The charged shot disappears after you inflict a certain amount of damage though, so it's time to recharge after that. There are multiple power ups for the cannon, ranging from a spiked steel ball, to some blue thing that shoots circles of rotating homing energy. Each weapon can be powered up numerous times.

Some of the pros, it's got a unique weapon system, the graphics are top notch (if you don't mind the kiddy look it has), and the story is alright. The story has you going around destroying machines that are polluting the world.

Some of the cons, it's not terribly hard. A novice at shmups could probably run through this game with limited dieing. The music is sub-par too.

Here's some gameplay, courtesy of youtube. http://youtube.com/watch?v=4nJNaWGFz8w

More to come later, but I've got finals to study for, so I may need to prioritize.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was also released in one of those Capcom Collections on the PS2, so it's cheap and easy to obtain. It's a decent game, but not worth investing too much time in (as in, not worth going for the 1CC). Good recommendation for seeing what else is available though.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vertical shooters are generally more abstract and focused on skill and score. horizontal shooters are more interested in the experience, in telling a story.

try metal black and see if it does anything for you.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
vertical shooters are generally more abstract and focused on skill and score. horizontal shooters are more interested in the experience, in telling a story.

I would say that the word experience isn't quite right. Exploration may be a bit better. They're slower and much more calculated, but I think that both orientations are going after an experience. I would also state that vert are more action/twitch oriented, where hori are a bit more puzzle based/methodically paced.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no idea Eco Fighters was released on a PS2 collection, I'll gave to look at that.

Another game thingy coming up soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out Wings of Wor, on the Genesis. And... maybe NES Life Force, though I get the feeling that might not be ideal for someone who wasn't there at the time. Definitely Wings of Wor, though. And maybe Sagaia, while you're there.

R-Type is also always worth poking at.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantasy Zone? Righteous Booties.
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aderack
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh. Yeah, I guess that's technically a horizontal shooter, isn't it.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Progear really is the way to go if you are trying to bridge from vertical to horizontal.

And Gradius V.

Not that I am contributing a lot that is new here.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phalanx is not bad. It got a re-release on the GBA a few years back.

Shaper, there was another earlier sequel to Sengoku Ace that was a horizontal scrolling shooter. I can't recall the name, but I have it for the Saturn.

Ordyne! It's great, and I think the PC Engine version is on Wii virtual console.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
vertical shooters are generally more abstract and focused on skill and score. horizontal shooters are more interested in crushing you between walls or something.

Metal Black is the only horizontal shooting game I can think of that fits your original generalization about the format, dess. You'd be better off just making the experience comment about Taito's early-mid '90s games and leaving it at that, I think.
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aderack
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For "experience, telling a story", substitute "journey". They're generally about going places, seeing stuff. The experience comes out of place, whereas in vertical shooters it comes out of action.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantasy Zone, while I find myself completely unable to get past the second stage like in my childhood, still remains one of my most cherished shooters. It's just so happy-go-lucky that I can't help but smile at it!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aderack wrote:
For "experience, telling a story", substitute "journey". They're generally about going places, seeing stuff. The experience comes out of place, whereas in vertical shooters it comes out of action.

But what of games like Rayforce, which clearly prove that there's a place for that kind of experience in vertical-scrolling games? I just don't see why it's necessary to draw the distinction between format when it seems like a developer choice. And, really: how aren't vertical scrolling games about seeing new stuff? I've been playing Raiden DX on my PSP lately, and the practice stage is essentially just one really long stage, with a very good Toaplan-esque flow through various terrains. My interest in seeing what's past the place where I died last time is just as compelling as the abstract game mechanics and action.
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aderack
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why you need to take issue with this. We're being descriptive, not proscriptive. There are exceptions, yeah. Of course there are. The general trends are pretty clear, though.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just bought Gradius V, so maybe I'll soon have another horizontal shooter to put on my 'favorites' list along with Thunderforce IV.

Also, I haven't played it but Cave's latest, Death Smiles, looks hella awesome for a horizontal.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, my PS2 can't do the blue backed discs anymore. So no Gradius V for me. Also, is my PC just not beefy or is Progear supposed to be that SLOW?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is progear supposed to be this slow?

Compare and contrast with this video?

aderack wrote:
I don't know why you need to take issue with this. We're being descriptive, not proscriptive. There are exceptions, yeah. Of course there are. The general trends are pretty clear, though.

It would be great if you would give some examples of games that exemplify these trends, because I don't know where you're coming from. It seems to me that the games that convey an experience or journey are the exceptions, and the vast majority are all in more or less the same mold as their vertically-scrolling brethren, but from a different perspective that results in a greater emphasis on environmental hazards. Metal Black and other Taito games are fine examples, but they don't embody the entire format - Taito's work of the early-mid 90s stands as a stark contrast to what a lot of other developers were doing at the time.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonMoses wrote:
Quote:
Is progear supposed to be this slow?

Compare and contrast with this video?



HOLY CRAP that's a lot of stuff on screen at once

I think if I tried to run that on my computer the screen would go black and then a skull and crossbones would appear on it, and a little guy would pop up wagging his finger going 'uh-uh-uh!', like in films.

I really like that intro with the plane taking off!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harvey, if your computer can handle CPS2 hardware emulation without trouble Progear will run at a good speed since it's on that hardware.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

extrabastardformula wrote:
Damn, my PS2 can't do the blue backed discs anymore. So no Gradius V for me. Also, is my PC just not beefy or is Progear supposed to be that SLOW?


Did you try the scotch tape around the middle trick (example)? That was what I had to do to get Contra: Shattered Soldier to work.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm playing Gradius V now and just had a bit of a revelation, horizontal shooters make me feel like I suck more than vertical shooters. I don't feel bad eventually succumbing to endless waves of bullets, but when I run into a wall in Gradius it really pisses me off! And yes, I run into things a lot in most horizontal shooters. I think some of it has to do with habits I've picked up playing the vertical variety; I like to move around a lot. Also, I tend to lose concentration during the slow moments of horizontal shooters and do stupid things like, yes, run into walls. I'm going to try and stick with Gradius V though(but I may go back and finally finish Thunderforce IV first.)

Speaking of atmosphere in shooters, Under Defeat is one vertical shooter which drew me in with its environments. It felt like more of a journey than most shooters to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Under Defeat is another good example, with the last stage being especially classy. It was developed by ex-Taito staff, too!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonMoses wrote:
aderack wrote:
For "experience, telling a story", substitute "journey". They're generally about going places, seeing stuff. The experience comes out of place, whereas in vertical shooters it comes out of action.

But what of games like Rayforce, which clearly prove that there's a place for that kind of experience in vertical-scrolling games? I just don't see why it's necessary to draw the distinction between format when it seems like a developer choice. And, really: how aren't vertical scrolling games about seeing new stuff? I've been playing Raiden DX on my PSP lately, and the practice stage is essentially just one really long stage, with a very good Toaplan-esque flow through various terrains. My interest in seeing what's past the place where I died last time is just as compelling as the abstract game mechanics and action.


Late to the thread but: Xevious. No other game still makes me feel like I'm travelling over a real place as much, and I'm not sure why. It feels like they sculpted every screen. Metal Black has plot but the big apocalyptic events are more suggested by the text in the intro and outro, rather than much of a progressio in the levels (also: the game is interesting but ultimately shit).

Conversely the "plot" in the Gradius games is totally abstact and there's not much sense of one level's theme being suggested by the previous. There's a sense of continual movement provided by the fades but it's (again) fairly arbitary and incohesive. Gradius V sort of had some plot but that's the dull Treasure shooter sub-divison side of the game's heritage showing though (come to think of it Radiant Silvergun had hella story and was vertical so that's another pretty damning hole in the arguement).

Raiden is a lot like Xevious in that you feel like you're flying over a real place. DoDonPatchi inherits a lot of that.

In conclusion: there's not really much of a clean split beyond the general trend that overhead shooters have you dodging much more in the way of bullets and that side-on shooters are as much about not crashing as they are blasting things.
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Einhander for the PSONE.
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