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Everything I know about FPS games I learned from John Romero
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Everything I know about FPS games I learned from John Romero Reply with quote

It was recommended to make a generic FPS thread in a different thread, so this is kind of it. There was some interesting discussion going on about level designers, and I was looking through the Quake manual and found that most of the people who did level design in Doom also worked on Quake. I've never really paid attention to this kind of thing before, and when these games first came out I took a lot for granted.

Anyways, I'm putting up a list of the level designers here from Doom through Quake with their levels:

DOOM
====

Map Name Who?
----------------------------------------------
E1M1 Hangar John Romero
E1M2 Nuclear Plant John Romero
E1M3 Toxin Refinery John Romero
E1M4 Command Control Sandy Petersen
E1M5 Phobos Lab John Romero
E1M6 Central Processing John Romero
E1M7 Computer Station John Romero
E1M8 Phobos Anomaly Sandy Petersen
E1M9 Military Base John Romero

E2M1 Deimos Anomaly Sandy Petersen
E2M2 Containment Area Sandy Petersen
E2M3 Refinery Sandy Petersen
E2M4 Deimos Lab Sandy Petersen
E2M5 Command Center Sandy Petersen
E2M6 Halls of the Damned Sandy Petersen
E2M7 Spawning Vats Sandy Petersen
E2M8 Tower of Babel Sandy Petersen
E2M9 Fortress of Mystery Sandy Petersen

E3M1 Hell Keep Sandy Petersen
E3M2 Slough of Despair Sandy Petersen
E3M3 Pandemonium Sandy Petersen
E3M4 House of Pain Sandy Petersen
E3M5 Unholy Cathedral Sandy Petersen
E3M6 Mt. Erebus Sandy Petersen
E3M7 Limbo Sandy Petersen
E3M8 Dis Sandy Petersen
E3M9 Warrens Sandy Petersen

Ultimate DOOM
=============

Map Name Who?
----------------------------------------------
E4M1 Hell Beneath American McGee
E4M2 Perfect Hatred John Romero
E4M3 Sever The Wicked Shawn Green
E4M4 Unruly Evil American McGee
E4M5 They Will Repent Tim Willits
E4M6 Against Thee Wickedly John Romero
E4M7 And Hell Followed John Anderson
E4M8 Unto The Cruel Shawn Green
E4M9 Fear (secret level) Tim Willits

DOOM II
=======

Map Name Who?
----------------------------------------------
MAP01 Entryway Sandy Petersen
MAP02 Underhalls American McGee
MAP03 The Gantlet American McGee
MAP04 The Focus American McGee
MAP05 The Waste Tunnels American McGee
MAP06 The Crusher American McGee
MAP07 Dead Simple American McGee
MAP08 Tricks and Traps Sandy Petersen
MAP09 The Pit Sandy Petersen
MAP10 Refueling Base Sandy Petersen
MAP11 'O' of Destruction! John Romero
MAP12 The Factory Sandy Petersen
MAP13 Downtown Sandy Petersen
MAP14 The Inmost Dens American McGee
MAP15 Industrial Zone John Romero
MAP16 Suburbs Sandy Petersen
MAP17 Tenements John Romero
MAP18 The Courtyard Sandy Petersen
MAP19 The Citadel Sandy Petersen
MAP20 Gotcha! John Romero
MAP21 Nirvana Sandy Petersen
MAP22 The Catacombs American McGee
MAP23 Barrels O' Fun Sandy Petersen
MAP24 The Chasm Sandy Petersen
MAP25 Bloodfalls Shawn Green
MAP26 The Abandoned Mines John Romero
MAP27 Monster Condo Sandy Petersen
MAP28 The Spirit World Sandy Petersen
MAP29 The Living End John Romero
MAP30 Icon of Sin Sandy Petersen
MAP31 Wolfenstein Sandy Petersen
MAP32 Grosse Sandy Petersen

QUAKE:

The Beginning
start -- Welcome to Quake -- by John Romero
***************************************
Dimension of the Doomed (shareware episode)
e1m1: Slipgate Complex -- by John Romero
e1m2: Castle of the Damned -- by Tim Willits
e1m3: The Necropyolis -- by Tim Willits
e1m4: The Grisly Grotto -- by Tim Willits
e1m5: Gloom Keep -- by Tim Willits
e1m6: The Door To Chthon -- by American McGee
e1m7: The House of Chthon -- by American McGee
***************************************
Realm of Black Magic
e2m1: The Installation -- by John Romero
e2m2: Ogre Citadel -- by John Romero
e2m3: Crypt of Decay -- by John Romero
e2m4: The Ebon Fortress -- by John Romero
e2m5: The Wizard's Manse -- by John Romero
e2m6: The Dismal Oubliette -- by John Romero
***************************************
Netherworld
e3m1: Termination Central -- by John Romero
e3m2: The Vaults of Zin -- by American McGee
e3m3: The Tomb of Terror -- by American McGee
e3m4: Satan's Dark Delight -- by American McGee
e3m5: Wind Tunnels -- by Tim Willits
e3m6: Chambers of Torment -- by American McGee & Tim Willits
***************************************
The Elder World
e4m1: The Sewage System -- by Tim Willits
e4m2: The Tower of Despair -- by Sandy Petersen
e4m3: The Elder God Shrine -- by Sandy Petersen
e4m4: The Palace of Hate -- by Sandy Petersen
e4m5: Hell's Atrium -- by Sandy Petersen
e4m6: The Pain Maze -- by Sandy Petersen
e4m7: Azure Agony -- by Sandy Petersen
***************************************
The End
end: Shub-Niggurath's Pit -- by John Romero
***************************************
The Deathmatch Arenas
dm1: Place of Two Deaths -- by Tim Willits
dm2: Claustrophobopolis -- by American McGee
dm3: The Abandoned Base -- by John Romero
dm4: The Bad Place -- by American McGee
dm5: The Cistern -- by Tim Willits
dm6: The Dark Zone -- by Tim Willits
***************************************
???
Ziggurat Vertigo -- by American McGee
Underearth -- by Tim Willits
The Haunted Halls -- by American McGee
The Nameless City -- by Sandy Petersen
***************************************

I would love to see some more discussion of this and all things related to FPS level design. Let's hold off on talking about things like story telling and narrative as they tend to overlap into too many genres.
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Last edited by Shapermc on Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a general question, is there an FPS that has level design that's more like the TES than your standard "tunnel" design?

Not that I don't like the tunnel design, I'd just be interested if there was an FPS that used more of an "open" feel.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serious Sam games?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you mean The Elder Scrolls? In which case I'll just counter with an Archer in Oblivion.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought Quake's level design was excellent. It's lovely how the levels twist around and go up and under and double back on themselves. They're so well constructed. I actually played the shareware episode the other day- In the Necropolis, I discovered you can actually dive off the bridge into the water before you get to the Shambler, get the invisibility ring, leg it past all the zombies getting the gold key along the way, up the elevator, back across the bridge past the shambler and through the gold key door before the invisibility runs out. That's amazing! It's so well crafted. The level design's up there with the best Nintendo stuff.

At the time it got quite unfavorably compared with Doom, but I think Quake's got it's own thing going on.

I don't know if they were aware of Rocket jumping when they were designing the levels or if it was an unplanned feature, but if they were taking rocket jumping into account when they designed they game, then they're geniuses!

Apparently in Doom Sandy Peterson would do things like give you 100 cells at the end of one level, and then two huge monsters to use them on at the end of the next level, so the people who chose to manage their ammunition wisely were rewarded. They really thought things through.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
I assume you mean The Elder Scrolls? In which case I'll just counter with an Archer in Oblivion.


Ah, you know what I meant.

Traditional FPSes. With guns. With an emphasis on budda budda budda.

I guess there's something about the "explore and investigate" game-world style that doesn't mesh with the extremely focused mechanic of killing most everything that moves and maintaining some sort of ammo conservation.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh SHIT, I just looked up Sandy Petersen and it turns out I had heard the name before being associated with Doom. Call of Cthulhu the tabletop game. Amazing. Woah. Mind. Blown.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey: I want to guess that STALKER is like this based on what I've read, but there's no way in hell for me to know because I can't play it. I'm hoping that Dhex pops in here.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what he's said, it's not and this pissed off a lot of people. The descriptions that I've heard indicate that it's a collection of "zones" that connect, so imagine a bunch of boxes that that only connect at certain points? Something like that.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, you're out there FPS'ing it up in open fields. There are tunneling areas and whatnot, but the majority of what I played had you in a wide open area runnin' and gunnin'.

Like I said before though Serious Sam is pretty good with the wide open area shooting.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rise of the Triad had some really, really open levels. Same with Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior.

They were fairly limited by their hardware though... although I will say RoTT's "I'M FREE!" crash screen still gives me fits. Of giggling.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved Rise of the Triad and Duke 3D!
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOTE: I edited the first post to be a bit more competent
Harveyjames wrote:
I loved Rise of the Triad and Duke 3D!

I have some fantastic memorties of RotT
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I knew Stalker had at least some of what I'm talking about and sounds like Serious Sam has some nice wide-open levels.

I am kind of surprised that there hasn't been a (traditional) FPS with a single all-access worldmap though.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sediment wrote:
Rise of the Triad had some really, really open levels. Same with Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior.

They were bloody huge as well.

RotT was pretty ahead of its time. It was the first FPS to have a capture the flag gametype and support for more than four players. Jump pads before Quake 3, gibs before the term became associated with Quake and it had the first ever railgun in the form of the Dark Staff. And it was hella-fast, I thought DooM deathmatches were speedy but that had nothing on zipping about the joint dodging flamewalls and huge amounts of drunk missiles shot by jumping players.

And who could forget being turned into a dog.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey guys how about that marathon
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been meaning to play Marathon ever since that UT fan re-make came out. It seems pretty interesting.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i pretty much exclusively play FPS games. they're my favourite genre next to ACTION ADVENTURES.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow sandy peterson is a jerk
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it doesn't show up on that last, but some of the levels sandy made were built off blueprints created by tom hall before he left.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

far cry, mr. scratchmonkey. it's about as open as an fps can get. it has levels but you always have at least two methods of doing stuff.

add in the speedboat and you get all sorts of hilarious ways of dying.

and yeah i HEARTILY recommend stalker to anyone who digs on fps games, deus ex style games or anything in between.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I completely forgot Farcry. That is a pretty wide open FPS.

From what I played of Crysis, that's also has some pretty open maps, albeit I didn't play the game for very long, so maybe I played the only open map available. It was also multi player only too, so if you're looking for a good solo FPS with open maps, I can't confidently recommend Crysis.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always wanted to play the original Far Cry.

As opposed to Far Cry Instincts, which was actually pretty fun, but you know, a totally different game altogether. Those "ports" always trip me out. That is, the ones that aren't ports at all but just a totally different yet somewhat similar game.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
it doesn't show up on that last, but some of the levels sandy made were built off blueprints created by tom hall before he left.


Wow, I didn't know that. Tom Hall's blueprints were pretty crazy and a far cry from the game they ended up making.

Tom Hall wanted to call Doom 'It's Green and Pissed'. He left due to creative differences.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nah they wanted to call wolfenstein that. it wasn't just him who wanted to call it that, too!

you can still see some of the old game ideas in the tom hall levels, but it's jarring because they added stuff to make them more gamey. like the warehouse level in shores of hell, which looks plausable until you get to this big marble area with crushing pillars and shit which was clearly added to the original design.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fascinating, where did you read that?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

which part? the GREEN AND PISSED was in an old john romero interview (it was mentioned elswhere too) and there is a more complete level credit list elsewhere which say which levels were built from Tom Hall blueprints. Let me see if I can find it..

here we go:

Doom level design credits
E1M4: Command Control (finished by Romero)
E1M8: Phobos Anomaly (finished by Petersen)
E2M1: Deimos Anomaly (Petersen)
E2M2: Containment Area (Petersen)
E2M3: Refinery (Petersen)
E2M4: Deimos Lab (Petersen)
E2M7: Spawning Vats (Petersen)
E3M3: Pandemonium (Petersen)
E3M7: Limbo (Petersen)

Doom II level design credits
MAP10: Refueling Base (Petersen)

the JARRING stuff is my own observations, though. it becomes much more obvious once you know about all the above stuff, though.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard the Green and Pissed story in Masters of Doom. I seriously recommend everyone reads that. I've never read a book so fast! One sitting. Seriously.

Oh wait, Will Smith's unofficial biography I read pretty quick, too.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have it on my shelf but haven't read it yet. I've decided to play less games and read more books (I started with the easy stuff, going thorugh my graphic novel collection) so I should get to it eventually.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crysis will be a single player. a pc demo hits at the end of october iirc.

actually i would also recommend bloodlines in a weird way even though it's hub based and more deus ex than shooter. it has a fairly open beginning and middle (the end not so much).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep meaning to play that game again. I stopped playing towards the end (because it started to suck) but everything before that was a tonne of fun.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know why I didn't recommend this before, but Armed Assault and Operation Flashpoint are both amazing FPS's, with huge playing fields. Armed Assault is basically a sequel to Operation Flashpoint.

It's basically another war FPS, so if you're tired of that scene it probably won't be for you, but the coop in that game is amazing. I probably have more fun playing Operation Flashpoint with my friends than I do when I play Team Fortress 2.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just reviewed the new expansion for Armed Assault.

The included patch made the original game about ten million times better to play!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terra Nova is nothing but huge outdoors environments. It's a pretty sweet game, you had huge levels, squads and you got to shoot at things up with lasers. I really wish I had bought it when it was out so I could run it through DOSBox since it's one of those games you just can't get anymore. I've found Marathon 2 for Windows 95 in a couple bargain bins over the years and that is almost hugely obscure but Terra Nova has proved to be an even more elusive beast.

That and Trespasser, haven't seen it since three years after its release. Dreamworks should probably think of doing a wii remake since using lots of guns and that hand to shoot at dinosaurs is the kind of entertainment that fills an entire weekend.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pink Teddy Bear wrote:
Don't know why I didn't recommend this before, but Armed Assault and Operation Flashpoint are both amazing FPS's, with huge playing fields. Armed Assault is basically a sequel to Operation Flashpoint.

It's basically another war FPS, so if you're tired of that scene it probably won't be for you, but the coop in that game is amazing. I probably have more fun playing Operation Flashpoint with my friends than I do when I play Team Fortress 2.


Operation Flashpoint will grind or balls (or whathaveyou) into dust. I beat it and Operation Flashpoint: Red Hammer, and damn did they make me earn that. Those were some awesome games though. They are some of the few titles that actually lets the player loose in a large area to do what they need to. There were so many times that I would need to run like a madman after an ambush, only to double back through thick woods, alternating between crouching and going prone, all the way back to the patrol route and unloading on a few stragglers. They are also games where the tank is no joke. Seeing one roll through with a small detachment was scary as hell, more so than any creature in any other first-person shooter that I've played.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the best windows frontend for Doom?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZDoom. Well, maybe not best since that's quite subjective, but it's the most popular.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

since zdoom got mentioned, i got reminded that MOTHERFUCKING STRYFE had some really awesome, really open levels. and some really awesome, really closed levels.

stryfe also had vendors and shit, using the doom engine. great game.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It had multiple choice conversations and (almost) seamless level transitions. And you could punch rubes until they fell to their knees clutching their intestines then cap them with an assault rifle. Or set them on fire.

Voice overs weren't too shabby either.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My internet hunting skills aren't what they used to be, I can't get my grubby paws on any of the older mentioned games. If anyone could give me a hand here, I'd appreciate it...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Doom was meant to be more of an adventure game, with power-ups, items to pick up, an inventory, mission goals, and dialogue.

Also, originally, the first few levels in Quake's episode 1 weren't going to be Romero's. This was when Romero and John Carmack were really starting to go at it, since id tradition had it that all opening levels were Romero's, since he was the most senior designer.

I love Quake's level design (obviously, given my other thread). I still consistently miss half the secrets in the game, because they're all over the place and really well hidden.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought we all knew that already!

Did you play the cut segment of Dismal Oubliette? It was a huge intro to the level John had to cut out for size reasons, it was big enough to be its own level and was pretty cool.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

secret shame: i always enjoyed quake 2 more than quake.

though i did enjoy quake no doubt.

hey has anyone mentioned chronicles of riddick yet? easily one of the most underrated games of the past 10 years.
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Dhex, I remember you spouting love for Pain Killer a while back. I tried the demo recently and for whatever reason it bogs down when ever there are more than 3-4 enemies (like, it looks good, it just moves at a snails pace). It seemed more like just a shooting range from what I saw of the demo. Why all the love?

Also, was the original Far Cry ever properly ported to a console or only sequel-esque ones?
dhex wrote:
hey has anyone mentioned chronicles of riddick yet? easily one of the most underrated games of the past 10 years.

We all play that on our Xboxen and we're also getting a remake in HDeez soon for the 360.
Pink Teddy Bear wrote:
My internet hunting skills aren't what they used to be, I can't get my grubby paws on any of the older mentioned games. If anyone could give me a hand here, I'd appreciate it...

I looked in the usual suspect places but couldn't find most any of them either. I'd love to get my hands on RotT again.

Also, I just thought of Isle of the Dead, which is a game I actually still have like 3 floppy discs for. I remember it having somewhat open levels, but they were just really open long corridors. I'd like to try to play it again and see.
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lestrade wrote:

I love Quake's level design (obviously, given my other thread). I still consistently miss half the secrets in the game, because they're all over the place and really well hidden.


I'm replaying it, a little. I've only just realised how deliberate the placement of all the power-ups is. On E1M2, when I was a kid playing this game I'd just get the secret quad damage and run around shooting grunts going 'LOLOLOLOLOL'. Now I realise they give you the quad there because it's in running distance of the room with all the fiends and ogres, which you can now clear out in seconds.

Really though, I didn't start to appreciate how cleverly put-together Quake's single player was until I saw the 'Quake Done Quick' recams.

Man, I remember running up massive phone bill playing Quake online. My mum would go crazy.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shapes: i enjoyed the first episode of painkiller but then i discovered it never actually changes. it's basically a "doom of the dead" shooting gallery game.
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
Man, I remember running up massive phone bill playing Quake online. My mum would go crazy.

Quake was the first FPS game I played online. It was awesome because my dad loved the tech side of computers so he helped me set all that shit up. We'd had the internet (or whatever it was called before giving it a proper name. We used Prodigy) for years but my Dad wouldn't let me play games on his computer (the only one with a modem) so this was the first game that I got where I had a modem on my PC.

Dhex: I remember you saying really good things about the game a while back, so I figured I must have missed something, but it seems I didn't.
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fish
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
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Location: montreal

PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i bumped into romero once.
he's a tiny man.
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Lestrade
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but his hair is huuuuuge. Well, it was, then it wasn't, now thankfully it is again.
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sediment
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Joined: 15 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of them are impossible to get anymore (like BLAKE STONE!) but marathon's basically freeware at this point from bungie's website, and it is very good.

a lot of games have been redone using zdoom, so it's sort of a holy grail for old shooters. some games, like stryfe, have not been successfully completed (last I checked) in their reconstruction, and are basically impossible to get otherwise. Hexen II would also be ultra-sweet to reacquire, now that I think of it.

I must be one of the three people in this country who really liked Hexen II more than previous Heretic games. Fast-paced assassination action!
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