The Gamer's Quarter

[simplicio]

Zelda is a thoroughly established set of rules (precepts even), manufactured as a very polished tech demo (unlike the fragmented works often seen as console launch titles) to highlight the new abilities of Nintendo hardware while retaining enough overall familiarity to make sure that newness is never alienating.

That's it, really.
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"Worlds turn the new machine to thee. To thee. Though, thine the new machine space."
-Kurt Schwitters, 1919

[The Great Unwashed]

I agree, at least as far as Twilight Princess is concerned. It is in almost every way a series lacking innovation, with Majora's Mask being perhaps the only exception. Still, I endorse your statements, and will vote for you as Governor-General at any given upcoming election.
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[helicopterp]

Simplicio, this isn't a reaction to Phantom Hourglass, is it? Because I might go get it today. Is it as unremarkable as dessgeega makes it out to be?


And regardless of the iteration, I always like to think of Zelda games as extremely lavish games of Puzzle League.


edit: And by "always" I mean in the last month-and-a-half or so since my roommate because obsessed with Pokemon Puzzle League.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

[dessgeega]

[simplicio]

[Shapermc]

[helicopterp]

I started Phantom Hourglass today. It's really not very interesting.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

[simplicio]

[Shapermc]

I've been playing a lot of metroid lately (like, right now I'm working on Fusion and III) and you can basically use that definition for Metroid.

Speaking of which, metroid in the end (after II) started to do a lot of the things that irritate me about Zelda but it seems to (mostly) fit better. The exception here is, to use an exact example, how every time you get a new missile upgrade in Metroid III you have to wait for the Get missile music to finish while there's a text box saying "You now have 5 More missiles! Use the Select button + A to fire missiles"

I guess I just wish that these games would discriminate better. Like in Metroid II when I got the Vira suit (note: I didn't have the manual) I was like .... WTF does this do again? The game didn't give me a text box saying that you can move at normal speed in water. Like, if I get a missle upgrade the FIRST time, sure tell me what it does and how to use it. But like, the tenth time in about 30 minutes, I'm pretty sure I get the idea at this point.

I still enjoy these games, I just wish that Nintendo had more faith in it's players.

You know?


EDIT: "to include all hardware features" GOD, Super Metroid really needed to go with a far more minimalistic approach to the controls. Just because you have 4 face buttons, 2 shoulders buttons, a start and a select button doesn't mean they all need to do something unique. I almost wish there was a GBA port of the game so that Nintendo had to be a bit more restrained.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[simplicio]

Yeah, but at least Prime: Hunters didn't have you doing 4th wall-breaking, text-adventure style DS hijinks. I was lead to my original theory by the overwhelming in-game prominence of hardware usage in Zelda.
DID YOU KNOW THERE'S A GBA LINK CABLE?
DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN CONNECT GBAS TO YOUR GAMECUBE?
DID YOU KNOW THERE'S A SPEAKER IN THE WII REMOTE?
HEY, LISTEN!
DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN TOUCH WITH THE STYLUS?
DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN DRAW ON THE MAPS?
HEY LISTEN!
DID YOU KNOW THERE'S A MICROPHONE?

I'm pretty well oblivious to the hand holding at this point; it's so ingrained in first party Nintendo titles that I just take it as a given and ignore it pretty well.
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"Worlds turn the new machine to thee. To thee. Though, thine the new machine space."
-Kurt Schwitters, 1919

[Shapermc]

I don't include any of the 3D Metroid games as metroid games honestly.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[The Great Unwashed]

I roll my eyes at you Shaper! Metroid Prime is to my mind one of the best games I have ever played. Just because it's not a 2D shooter doesn't mean it's not dripping with atmosphere, gorgeous visuals and simply oozes fun.
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[dessgeega]

metroid prime isn't a bad game. (though it isn't a game that doesn't have flaws either.) but i think it's fair to think of the prime games their own series, independent of the 2d metroid games. nintendo seems to consider them as such.
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[Ethoscapade]

god dammit shaper it's varia and i wouldn't nitpick but you've posted about it at least five times in the last week

.. thank you!!

i'm glad you seem to be enjoying super, though. the controls i will readily concede are an area where the game wanted to be just a little more "super" than was necessary; elsewise i love it as much as the next guy.

[aderack]

I think the control sprawl is what makes me not-enjoy Super Metroid. There's certainly enough to respect in it. Still, I can never quite get over how much I hate to actually, physically play it.
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[helicopterp]

It's probably been about a year since I last played it, but the controls never bothered me too much because of the sound effects tied to the button presses. I know that's a little strange--regardless, the game is sonically incredible.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

[kirkjerk]

I just replayed Crackdown with a friend, swapping the controller.

(Incidentally, I'm enjoying having and being a game spectator more than I ever thought I would these days. My housemate tends to see things in puzzles and random details in games like Bioshock, and hardly ever wants to play. My other gaming buddy likes to play some, and I'm surprised how much I don't mind riding shotgun, sometimes more attentive and helpful, sometimes less. Hell, maybe Halo 3 story mode is better played this way than the split screen we tried before.)

Anyway, Crackdown's narrator is decent and generally inobtrusive (I guess that's because he's a VO rather than a "press A to continue") but it is kind of weird that near the end of the game you get messages describing the basics of the powerup system and race starts. Also, he tends to interject "nice!" and "good work, agent!" at oddly inappropriate times.
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[Shapermc]

[extrabastardformula]

[Scratchmonkey]

[D-A-I-S]

could one of you please describe, in detail, what is wrong with super metroid's control scheme and options

[Shapermc]

[extrabastardformula]

Also the most finicky wall jump since Strider on NES, the diamond arrangement of face buttons not being great for doing everything while holding run (which you are almost always doing) and the inexplicable "moonwalking"option.
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[Ethoscapade]

the wall jump is actually very easy, you just have to push away then jump and there is such cognitive dissonance in doing that for most people.

[Shapermc]

I had some pretty major problems with the wall jump my first time through. After playing Fusion and ZM I got a bit more use to it.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[aderack]

Right. You just have to juggle so many buttons, so inanely. And they're so awkwardly placed, in respect to each other. Running, jumping, then shooting at an angle is possible if you're double-jointed. And if you practice a lot.
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[dessgeega]

i've always felt like that philosophy carried over into the level design, too. there are so many unnecessary items and places. maridia seems to exist just as a place to hide missile packs.
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[D-A-I-S]

Were there any actual points at which you had to run, jump and shoot? Hell, I don't even remember there being that many places where you even have to do a running jump.

Also, you could remap buttons! Remember?

[dessgeega]

[D-A-I-S]

at this point? publication rights.

[dessgeega]

dais, i know your schtick is to be a fanboy and then when anyone calls you on it to respond with an obscure one-liner and pretend you're smarter than everyone, but could you not do that here? we like discussion on these forums.
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[kirkjerk]

I always thought Super Mario World was another example of button-itis on the SNES.

It was cool that Nintendo came up with an arrangement that let buttons act as a second crosspad, but some games just went a bit nuts with it.

On the N64 and especially the GC, you see a bigger commitment by Nintendo to excellent button differentiation, while Xbox and PS are sticking with the good old pseudocrosspad.
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[Shapermc]

[dessgeega]

[D-A-I-S]

[Swimmy]

(Hated this post, murked.)

[Six]

[Shapermc]

[glitch]

i always thought super metroid's control scheme quite fitting.

basic straight-forward controls wouldn't suit the way Samus moves in that game. super metroid's controls are far more low-level than most games that era, the game doesn't finish your moves for you, you gotta do everything yourself. in a way that's super metroid's equivalent of the very close camera of Metroid 2. i mean, compare the average platformer hero's "oh you're not actively telling me to crouch anymore i'll just get up then ok" attitude with the heavy feel of Samus' suit. ultra precise and responsive, but it's a struggle to pilot it effectively. like the first 3 metroids just throw the player into an alien environment without any help, super metroid extends that to the controls.

not like i never had trouble with them, but imho the game would have benefitted from having more buttons available rather than less. uni-directional weapon-selection is suck alright, and i can never remember which shoulder button is up and which is down. with an extra pair of shoulder buttons, it would have been perfect.

just curious, how would you guys have handled running if not with a seperate button?
cause having to fire a useless shot just to start running is such an immersion breaker... -_-;;

[dessgeega]

well, fusion and zero mission handle it by having you run automatically (though you only gain speed over long areas). that works fine because if you can be running in one of those games, you usually want to be. and i always felt the different in speed between samus's walk and run in metroid 3 was too negligible to really warrant an extra button.
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[aderack]

Though if it had to be mapped to an individual button, R would be perfect. Just put angled shot on the L button.
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[glitch]