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fallout fans are LEGENDARY and should probably be NSFW!
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dhex
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: fallout fans are LEGENDARY and should probably be NSFW! Reply with quote

i remember sethsez from ic saying this a while back when discussing bethesda and the fallout 3 license (fuck it, i think it'll be cool regardless) and he'd mentioned some of the fansites as being filled with rabid and bitter people. i think he may have understated the case.

i'm playing through fallout 2 now and (aside from getting my ass kicked constantly) i'm having a good time. i was curious about the development (some things were broken upon release due to having to remove children from some regions and unfinished stuff, the usual) and was reading some interviews when i came across this:

http://www.duckandcover.cx/content.php?id=11

now, brotherhood of steel is not much of a game. it's a bg: dark alliance style top down gauntlety shooter (or whatever they're called) but it was fairly fun and used the setting as you would imagine, which was both appropriate and shallow. (or appropriately shallow)

but yo, man:



Quote:
If they had actually listened to the Fallout fan sites, they would've realised quick smart that none of them were going to swallow this. Which begs the question, why are they making a Fallout console game if that fans don't want it? Why are they deliberately ignoring the fans wishes and making a game that no-one wants? Why? I'll tell you why, but we get to that bit at the end.


thousands of words and a +5 modifer to snark later:

Quote:
Key quote, "console gamers who aren't familiar with Fallout". Yep, the Fallout game that's NOT being made for Fallout fans. Great idea, isn't it? Take an existing franchise that's now five years old, screw over the fans that have been around the game for those five years, and make a game that not only do none of them want, but target it at a bunch of people who don't even know what Fallout is. In that case, why have "Fallout" in the title at all? That'd be like Nintendo making another Super Mario game, only turning Mario into some kind of Rambo character, removing all the puzzles and releasing it on the PC. HEY! THAT'S A GREAT IDEA!!


a better analogy would be the super mario / paper mario route, i think. anyway, this phenomena continues to frighten and enlighten in all its myriad forms and being jaded is far less stressful.

or just, you know, being sane.

but hey, fallout and fallout 2. yeah! good stuff.

what really puzzles my muffins, however, is that he keeps repeating "but why wouldn't they talk to the fan sites? what are they afraid of?"
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Dracko
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds to me of yet another case of self-importance. The reason they don't talk to the fan sites is because they don't matter, and are barely approachable. There are many instances were developers are willing to listen to output from gamers, only to be swamped with outrageous demands and little to no understanding of what their title is actually aiming for. It works in small doses, not by trying to keep into account every piece of petulence from GameFAQs level wannabe sites.

I got Fallout 2 on its release and I still find myself playing it and discovering something new, trying out new kinds of characters and developing them in new directions and it's still fun as Hell. Of course, by now, the beginning is really slow because you pretty much have to start off doing things exactly the same way no matter what, if you intend to build up and survive, but once you get beyond Vault City, you have more room for investigation.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never played either Fallout (fetch your pitchforks and burning stakes and hound me from this place), but... people who're prepared to go out of their way making fan sites almost always end up assuming they're an authority on how the next game should be made.

Fallout fans have made a bit of a reputation for themselves in this respect, though. Were they promised so much and then abandoned? Presumably they're bitter about something.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alc wrote:
Presumably they're bitter about something.


Dude. The internet.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can understand hoping a lot with a certain dev (interplay / black isle were very special, just like i cut warren spector 3 tons of slack) but, yeah, the internet.

it's just weird that when you're foaming at the mouth and simultaneously wondering why people don't want to share a seat on the bus with you.
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simplicio
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The foaming I don't mind so much as the urine puddle on the seat.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simplicio wrote:
The foaming I don't mind so much as the urine puddle on the seat.


I'm pretty sure that's from dhex's shampoo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallout fans: last seen at local goth/industrial club. Will work for LARPing materials.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex, we'd better have a Bethesda vs. Fallout webboard rumble article from you once this comes out.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that's from dhex's shampoo.


it's a special blend!

seriously, people miss out on some good times by not participating in high school sports.

Quote:
dhex, we'd better have a Bethesda vs. Fallout webboard rumble article from you once this comes out.


jesus, the horror upon horrors. i can barely imagine it.

that's not true, actually - i can totally imagine it, because the reaction is so goddamn predictable.

i completely get being mad about xboxification (the tragedy of invisible war, or even in much smaller doses like oblivion) or how fucked it is that interplay/black isle went down in flames.

but when the most common phrase on a webboard is "they're doing [xyz] to my fallout" you totally need to like, stop being like that. really.

i should start a consulting firm for nerd interventions. "is your son or daughter caught in a fictional net? we can help! call 1-888-NERD-END"
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ApM
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Websnark's essay on Entitlement and the Modern Fandom seems appropriate here. It's talking about webcomics, but it's widely applicable.
Quote:
The absolute worst examples of this are when they don't like the turn of events in the strip. "You made Marmaduke sad!" they write, truly outraged. "He went to his bowl, and that fucking Pekinese had eaten all his food, so he had no food and he was sad! I don't fucking read Marmaduke to see him sad! He should always be happy!" And then they get into an eighty-post long flamewar with other forum participants on whether or not it was appropriate that Marmaduke was sad.
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Mr. Mechanical
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this sort of fandom is the result of kids who grew up spending too much time on the internet and not enough time outside climbing trees and shooting bb guns and doing stuff with other kids their own age. I mean, that's the only way I can think to explain it. How else would you grow to be so wrapped up in your own little narrow world-view (assuming your world consists of your favorite videogame/webcomic/random piece of preferred meida). How the hell can you define yourself so much by a goddam brand. It's kind of troubling to think about, because one day these people will be old enough to vote/run for office/buy firearms and then where will we be?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's nothing to say they're exclusively defining themselves around that fanship. Just that they like the thing. A lot. Too much, probably.

Not liking it too much, really, but taking that personal connection it made with them too far in the other direction. The idea of entitlement in that essay is accurate.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ApM wrote:
Eric Websnark's essay on Entitlement and the Modern Fandom seems appropriate here. It's talking about webcomics, but it's widely applicable.


Reading this I wonder how closely we subconciously apply this whole fandom thing to video games themselves. Not specific ones, but the whole entertainment medium. I mean, we have certain things we look for and like to see in games, and when we're not there or if the medium betrays us by appealing to the lowest common denominator instead of to the hardcore a lot of us honestly get pissed off. Is this reading too far into it?

-Wes
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's off-base. There are certainly a lot of people who are ideologically invested in the whole medium, and I think it affects them the most. I'm thinking of the cliche 'bad things' which are often cited, like iterative first person shooters and sports games.

Though, that's more like a desire for something rather than outrage that it's not what you want. I think.

EDIT: grossly inappropriate analogy: being a fan and entering fandom is like the difference between religion or spirituality and theology.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not specific ones, but the whole entertainment medium. I mean, we have certain things we look for and like to see in games, and when we're not there or if the medium betrays us by appealing to the lowest common denominator instead of to the hardcore a lot of us honestly get pissed off


not only that, but our language choices force us to presume that everyone who is not us is the "lowest common denominator."
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Dracko
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This entire line of conversation reminds me of why I never listen to comic fans.

"I hate character development!: I don't read Batman to see Bruce Wayne get over his misplaced guilt and reveal his true sociopathic, authoritarian, insane colours! Fuck you, Frank Miller!"
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
This entire line of conversation reminds me of why I never listen to comic fans.


s/comic fans/anime otaku (including self)/g
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
This entire line of conversation reminds me of why I never listen to fans.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
This entire line of conversation reminds me of why I never listen to comic fans.

"I hate character development!: I don't read Batman to see Bruce Wayne get over his misplaced guilt and reveal his true sociopathic, authoritarian, insane colours! Fuck you, Frank Miller!"


I like it when he punches the clown in the face!
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dhex
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey, according to wikipedia:

Quote:
# Richard D. James, aka Aphex Twin, secretly included one of his tracks from his album Selected Ambient Works Vol. 2. Untitled Disc 2 Track 6 "Windowsill" can be heard clearly in some parts of the game. He may have done this under the pseudonym EFX which appears in the game credits. It is unknown why he chose to do this, and what relationship he had with Black Isle, or even if such a relationship existed. Some speculation runs that James did not choose to include the song on the soundtrack, but rather it was chosen for him by Black Isle.

# Winnipeg breakcore composer Venetian Snares used a sample from the game Fallout 2 on his album Doll Doll Doll


what? wow!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
.... because one day these people will be old enough to vote/run for office/buy firearms and then where will we be?


What color is the sky in your world? One day is now. I guarantee you that the (vast?) majority of the hardcore, obsessive Fallout mutants are old enough to drive, vote, buy whiskey, buy shotguns, and probably even run for office. Hell, I am.

Edit: And, considering all this, shouldn't they/we be old enough to stop bitching and make our own games by now?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i should really play fallout 2 at some point. i have it, but i bought it because the original was included free with it. i was utterly turned off by the opening dungeon, but then my (female) character courted a sex worker in the first town and it was a surprisingly respectful and well-done scene and it pleased me. but then i'd spent all of my money.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Dracko wrote:
This entire line of conversation reminds me of why I never listen to fans.

Well, yeah, that too.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

now that we've established that fallout fans are scary, yeah, fallout 2 is great. very amoral (if you want to be) though it obviously rewards nonviolent problem solving in many cases at a far greater rate than the usually bang bang stuff.

i was a little bothered by the slavery aspects, but the way they're handled feels natural and makes sense. in that kind of world, you are going to have rampant prostitution, exploitation and slavery, of both the mundane and technocratic variety.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If by non-violent you mean, fuck your way through (lol).

How did the slavery aspect bother you? I thought it was well implemented, especially if you decide to join them.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How did the slavery aspect bother you? I thought it was well implemented, especially if you decide to join them.


it is well implemented. it was one of those "eww, you fucks" moments. i might go back and murder the slavers at some point, i haven't decided yet.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember doing that some time through my second playthrough.

Fun times and easy money to be made from the loots.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
i might go back and murder the slavers at some point, i haven't decided yet.


I'd hold off on that for just a bit if I were you. I seem to recall a few people throughout the wastes who might commission and fund such a humanitarian effort.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have to wait until i get some good shit, too. just got the assault rifle so i'm all like BLAMMMMMO! and shit. but when i gets me some powered armor i'm gonna go cut them up real slow like.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of what Shadowrun fans are doing right now with their complaints about the new Shadowrun game.

The only difference is that they may actually have a good reason to complain.

Also, I haven't played any of the Fallout games either, but I remain interested.

And, I wouldn't really mind playing Post-Apocolypse Oblivion... would you?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post-Apocalyptic Oblivion sounds like a treat.

And Morrowind is another good game for slaughtering slavers.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And, I wouldn't really mind playing Post-Apocolypse Oblivion... would you?


i am hoping for it, actually. so long as they hire more than two people to record voices, i mean.

CAUSE LIKE SERIOUSLY GUYS THERE'S ONLY SIX PEOPLE IN YOUR MAGIC KINGDOM!

what gives with that? anyway, yeah, fuck the fans, bring the pain, let's hope for the best. if they fuck up fallout then let it be because they reached too far and not just cause they pulled an invisible war.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never really liked Western RPGs, because they involve too much brainwork. I literally couldn't force myself to play Fallout until I got a patch that would make me invincible, because I was too nervous about the prospect of investing a helluva of a lot of time in it and then screwing up irrevocably somehow. This is also why I've never played Fallout 2 and feel very bad about losing my copy, because you talking about it is making me pretty interested in playing it again.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do not fear.



if you take things slow, fallout is pretty easy. i think fallout 2 is actually quite difficult in comparison.

see also: staggered saves.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The irony being in Fallout, you're on a deadline.

Come to think of it, Fallout 2 has a deadline, sort of.

In a way though, Fallout is more concentrated and directed, so it's a good place to start.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what gives with that?

Honestly what baffles me more as why they recorded the exact same lines with multiple voice actors instead of just having an equivalent but differently phrased line for different characters.

Also, I want to make an Oblivion mod where there's no people, just wild animals and monsters (in cities too). That would be post-apocalyptic.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seryogin wrote:
I've never really liked Western RPGs, because they involve too much brainwork. I literally couldn't force myself to play Fallout until I got a patch that would make me invincible, because I was too nervous about the prospect of investing a helluva of a lot of time in it and then screwing up irrevocably somehow. This is also why I've never played Fallout 2 and feel very bad about losing my copy, because you talking about it is making me pretty interested in playing it again.


I haven't had the joy of playing Fallout, but I have played Wizardry, and there is nothing like being so scared to turn a corner in fear of some monster getting a critical hit and decapitating your character. Great stuff. Also:

dhex wrote:
i have to wait until i get some good shit, too. just got the assault rifle so i'm all like BLAMMMMMO! and shit. but when i gets me some powered armor i'm gonna go cut them up real slow like.


Cut em up, real slow like man. You just can't get that feeling anywhere else.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one
two

Enjoy



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crap! Turn out all the lights, maybe they'll think nobody's home!

Hi Frank!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redeye wrote:
Enjoy

Frank?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alright what's going on here.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is really odd. Should I ban this guy or leave him around?

-Wes
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



why ban? his links were appropriate...if harrowing!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, no ban...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yo, perhaps if you ain't hate so much then da world...would be a better place. PEACE!

P.S also I don't think many give an uncle buck as it were, da real fallout...is coming Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your ellipsis, if you insist on using one, should have come here:

"yo, perhaps if you ain't hate so much...then da worldwould be a better place."
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Redeye
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Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 986
Location: filth

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
your ellipsis, if you insist on using one, should have come here:

"yo, perhaps if you ain't hate so much...then da worldwould be a better place."



yer smart, teech mee bout spelingk, gray-merr, ann sinn-taxx

pleez

In the post nuclear wastes, most books were burned for warmth and the bindings were eaten by roaches, so I haf noo teechin'
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Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so this is the fallout themed version of trekkies?

i have to apologize to seth now, since i really did think he was kidding.

edit: this is as good a time as any to open up that old thing about how some kinds of gaming are "smarter" than others, even though gaming as a whole isn't as deep as danielle steele's back catalog.
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Last edited by dhex on Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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