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SoTC + Ico analysis :MASSIVE ENDING SPOILERS !!!
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, how does the sequence relate to narrative? Is it just pacing, like an album is sequenced?
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, along those lines. See, I'm a fan of the "emergent narrative of the gameplay" concept, which is an awful name for a fairly simple concept, that being that the seqence of events that occur during a session of playing the game is really what the "narrative" of the game is, as opposed to the expository plot or story.

So, assuming this, encountering Colossus 1 before you encounter Colossus 3 is important because you're not going to get the same sense of "oh crap" if you encounter 1 after you encounter 3, or you're not going to get the same sense of awe that you had when first encountering 3 if you don't have the previous experience of fighting 1.

In the same way, the flying colossus is more impressive or is at least a tangibly different experience having fought the ground-based colossi as opposed to finding it first.

Yes, having the harder or more-sequentially-advanced colossi be more inaccessible would be a good way to push the player toward the sequence you want them to play them in (especially if the sword trick only leads you along the correct path). On the other hand, a videogame director probably knows that the player is often capricious and contrary and that the only way to force a choice is to remove options.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

also, the player needs to be able to hold on for longer and longer periods of time.

it all worked out (and within!) more or less smoothly.
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Ketch
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Yeah, along those lines. See, I'm a fan of the "emergent narrative of the gameplay" concept, which is an awful name for a fairly simple concept, that being that the seqence of events that occur during a session of playing the game is really what the "narrative" of the game is, as opposed to the expository plot or story.

So, assuming this, encountering Colossus 1 before you encounter Colossus 3 is important because you're not going to get the same sense of "oh crap" .

1. Very true, this is what I believe to be the 'story' of games, which is how a player experiences it including all the wrong turns and misinterpretations of the scenarios that that includes. (Which tends to be when our desire for story gets frustrated). I also think that game stories work best in their small moments. Ie. one that happened to me. when you decide to take pity on a female zombie in Dead Rising and get grabbed by others, which mirrors the moments in Zombie movies where a character refuses to kill their now undead (mother/brother/boyfriend etc) and pays the price for not dealing with the situation.
More to come.
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally borrowed a friend's PS2 a few weeks back, and I finally played/finished ICO this last week. It was lovely and all, but I didn't walk away feeling it was the best game ever or anything. Not terribly difficult, not terribly challenging... once you'd solved the first few sets of puzzles (like breaking the pillar beneath that long bridge), the rest of the game seems to just reiterate them and build them on each other. But, like, you can always see the component parts and break the puzzle down based on individual elements and things.

All in all, I felt like it was more like an interactive movie than a game... but a truer kind of interactive movie than stuff like, I dunno, Night Trap, that you'd usually associate with the title. Like, it didn't stimulate the tactical or puzzle-solving parts of my brain enough to draw me out of viewing events. In that regard, I think it's quite impressive. There's loads of little details that made me go all funny inside, like watching Yorda's obsession with the birds (who could fly away whenever they want, etc, etc). Something like Prince of Persia, on the other hand, would have me paying too much attention to the invisible pathways that run along walls, bars and ledges to notice so much of that stuff.

I'm also 1/4 of the way through Shadow of the Colossus, and it seems similar. The battles seem to alternate between playing (climbing, stabbing, recovering) and merely viewing (watching your little fella get tossed around, dragged underwater, etc). The 'viewing' moments are like little mental breaks where you can stop thinking about weak spots and what-not. But they're still tense, because you can still see your little fatigue bar draining down.

I dunno. I guess, in the last five years, everything there is to say about ICO has already been said. Speaking personally, it was an interesting experience, but there's a lot of games I'd rather spend my spare time with.
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

antitype wrote:
Ketch wrote:
I wonder if Mono is perhaps the Queen from Ico? It could be so, because we don't know exactly what side-effects being resurrected has. Perhaps long life and the ability to feed off the lifeforce of others?

This is a really intriguing idea, and something that hadn't occurred to me before. It seems quite possible, and if it's true it might be the saddest thing of all. So it would be that Mono's curse was to become the nearly undying Queen of the shadow-beings: the reaper of the souls of Wander-Dormin's/Ico's bloodline. And it's as if Ico and Yorda are largely unaware of their own tragic fate, looking not just for a way out of the castle, but for redemption.


Having just finished SotC, I'm going to declare that the queen in Ico is the descendant/reincarnation of Mono, who has been collecting the spirits of horned boys (Wander's cursed bloodline) in order to reconstruct his soul. She's trying to bring him back to life, just like he once did for her. Centuries after the events of SotC, Ico slips his bonds and steals her daughter/next vessel and their new love/friendship/whatever brings a final end to Wander/Mono's relationship.

This means that Wander, unbeknownst to the player, is breaking the seals on Dormin, which is bad. But that Ico, unbeknownst to the player, is destroying all the work the queen has put into restoring her lover, which is bad. But, in a roundabout way, Ico is preventing Dormin (resident in Wander's soul) from being restored again, which is good! Ico - the descendant of Wander - is finally atoning for the restoration of Dormin, by preventing it from happening again.

Or something like that.

It ties a lot of things up and puts a vaguely optimistic spin on both endings.
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helicopterp
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you're right! I like your thinking, in any case.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like this explanation too. i don't believe the development staff was looking that far into the future, but they did leave everything open enough to interpretation, in both games.
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antitype
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice! Yeah, I hadn't thought that far ahead, either, but that's a perfect example of the sort of redemption I was hinting at.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

purplechair wrote:
antitype wrote:
Ketch wrote:
I wonder if Mono is perhaps the Queen from Ico? It could be so, because we don't know exactly what side-effects being resurrected has. Perhaps long life and the ability to feed off the lifeforce of others?

This is a really intriguing idea, and something that hadn't occurred to me before. It seems quite possible, and if it's true it might be the saddest thing of all. So it would be that Mono's curse was to become the nearly undying Queen of the shadow-beings: the reaper of the souls of Wander-Dormin's/Ico's bloodline. And it's as if Ico and Yorda are largely unaware of their own tragic fate, looking not just for a way out of the castle, but for redemption.


Having just finished SotC, I'm going to declare that the queen in Ico is the descendant/reincarnation of Mono, who has been collecting the spirits of horned boys (Wander's cursed bloodline) in order to reconstruct his soul. She's trying to bring him back to life, just like he once did for her. Centuries after the events of SotC, Ico slips his bonds and steals her daughter/next vessel and their new love/friendship/whatever brings a final end to Wander/Mono's relationship.

This means that Wander, unbeknownst to the player, is breaking the seals on Dormin, which is bad. But that Ico, unbeknownst to the player, is destroying all the work the queen has put into restoring her lover, which is bad. But, in a roundabout way, Ico is preventing Dormin (resident in Wander's soul) from being restored again, which is good! Ico - the descendant of Wander - is finally atoning for the restoration of Dormin, by preventing it from happening again.

Or something like that.

It ties a lot of things up and puts a vaguely optimistic spin on both endings.


OH MAN THAT IS TOTALLY THE WRONG LEVEL TO TRY AND APPRECIATE SOTC ON

Maybe you watched Hedgehog in the Fog and came out thinking 'I WONDER WHAT THE ELEPHANT MEANT I BET HE'S STALIN' like that's the key to understanding it. Like Da Vinci code shit. People who're too dumb to work out why they like a piece of art so the only way they can engage with it is by treating it like some kind of crossword puzzle. OH LOOK THE NEGATIVE SPACE FORMS A 'V'. You guys are better than that.

How did you feel while playing the game, good/bad? happy/sad? There you go, that's all you need. you understood it. There's no need to go back in and ask questions like YEAH BUT COULD A 12th LEVEL WIZARD REALLY CRACK THE SEAL OF KAZAHK-GHULL? CAUSE IN THE RPG I PLAY A 17th LEVEL WIZARD AND THE CHANCES OF THAT ARE 400-1

Asking questions about authorial intent is interesting but discussing the family lineage of the little horn guy and the princess chick is STRAIGHT-UP Z.

They're just avatars and little archetypical stand-ins. He's a hero she's a princess. That's it that's all. If the experience wasn't good you wouldn't care who they were, anyway. Because the experience of playing the game is the thing worth discussing! Who constructed this game? Why? Why did he make the creative decisions he made? These are the interesting questions.

The games are dealing with basic human emotions and situations. It's way more satisfying to discuss these things on a human level and not a D&D nerd level.

hope I get a job soon.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am slack-jawed at your post, Harvey. You don't need to be an asshole to anyone here.

Furthermore, I think you're wrong. Looking at the relationships between Ico and Shadow of the Colossus in terms of their plot is a great way to approach them; no one here is arguing that this level of interpretation offers a complete explanation for the art, but it is a very important aspect of it and discussing the two games in terms of each other produces some really interesting lines of thought.
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antitype
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly, heli.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only that, but the "Ico is redeeming Wander" line of thought can influence how one feels about the games. When you're playing ICO, are you rescuing a distraught princess or are you setting right hundreds of years of history? The thought of the latter kinda makes me feel goofy inside, so I go with it. The immediate experience isn't the only context we have.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

purplechair wrote:
Wander, unbeknownst to the player, is breaking the seals on Dormin, which is bad.

But... is it? That only struck me on the second playthough, but we only have the old lord's word as far as Dormin being bad goes (and in fact, only about the fact Dormin must be contained. We don't know why). It's rather ambiguous, since we don't actually know anything about Dormin. He does warn Wander about the heavy price to be paid, and he does keep his end of the bargain, resurrecting Mono. At no point does he betray Wander. He could actually very well be a victim here.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
I am slack-jawed at your post, Harvey. You don't need to be an asshole to anyone here.


I'm sorry ;_;

I'm just using caps and ribald language to make myself feel like a big man. I do this in real life too, except I raise my voice instead of pressing the shift key. It's more obviously I'm being tongue-in-cheek in real life, though @)

helicopterp wrote:


Furthermore, I think you're wrong. Looking at the relationships between Ico and Shadow of the Colossus in terms of their plot is a great way to approach them; no one here is arguing that this level of interpretation offers a complete explanation for the art, but it is a very important aspect of it and discussing the two games in terms of each other produces some really interesting lines of thought.


Dude, fuck intertextual discussion, that's how my friend ends up liking films like Bitter Moon (a really bad Roman Polanksi film).
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
Asking questions about authorial intent is interesting but discussing the family lineage of the little horn guy and the princess chick is STRAIGHT-UP Z.

They're just avatars and little archetypical stand-ins. He's a hero she's a princess. That's it that's all.


That's not really all there is to it, is it? The two games are connected, the horned kids are suffering from Wander's curse, etc.

Also, considering stuff like this is part of how I felt about it anyway. At the end of Ico, I wasn't sure if I'd saved a girl from slavery or arrogantly dragged her to her doom. But my interpretation of the links between the games makes it seem like I probably did the right thing after all. So I'm happy again. Similarly, I don't feel too bad about doing the stuffs at the end of SotC, because I know Ico sorts it all out later.

Basically: Pfffft.
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purplechair
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there's no way a 12th level wizard could crack the seal of Kazahk-Ghull without the Infinity Gauntlet.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
helicopterp wrote:
Furthermore, I think you're wrong. Looking at the relationships between Ico and Shadow of the Colossus in terms of their plot is a great way to approach them; no one here is arguing that this level of interpretation offers a complete explanation for the art, but it is a very important aspect of it and discussing the two games in terms of each other produces some really interesting lines of thought.


Dude, fuck intertextual discussion, that's how my friend ends up liking films like Bitter Moon (a really bad Roman Polanksi film).


Dude, no. It's interesting. A lot of art stands really well on its own, but none of it exists in a vacuum.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

purplechair wrote:
Harveyjames wrote:
They're just avatars and little archetypical stand-ins. He's a hero she's a princess. That's it that's all.


That's not really all there is to it, is it? The two games are connected, the horned kids are suffering from Wander's curse, etc.


yeah, the characters are traditional story archetypes, and while each game stands perfectly well on its own, you'd be remiss if you claimed that the horns in colossus's ending are anything less than the developers' conscious attempt to draw a link between the two titles for the benefit of players who are playing both and paying attention. you can appreciate the game on other levels, but it's silly to refuse to acknowledge one that's very obviously there.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://tokyopia.com/tk/archives/000090.php


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