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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: Nintendo games: patronising? |
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Is it me, or do many (GC) games feel patronising, partly due to the sound effects... ie. Luigi's grunts and groans in L.M and the character noises in Wind Waker. But even Metroid Prime feels patronising (okay, I've only got 7 p/c in). Metroid feels patronising because it relies far too much on a formula of exploration. Which is also the problem with Luigi's Mansion. These games have a very structured progression which makes things feel predictable- even STALE?. The same happens in Zelda: Wind Waker.
Maybe this is just me though? |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Nintendo have this whole language of how you 'do' games, from the sound effects up, which they've not really deviated from since the NES days. Things like the way Wind Waker's ocean is so regimented and tile-based ( one island, one fish and one treasure chest per map square) are exemplary of this. You can see this as charming and stylish or ass-backwards and standing in the way of progress depending on your perspective.
I think Metroid is the only Nintendo game where sort of thing really holds it back. I'd like to see a Metroid game that doesn't revolve around 5 different types of blow-uppable blocks. Seiklus springs to mind. |
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, but I think newer franchises aren't so bad. I only played a little Pikmin, and I've played a lot of Animal Crossing and definitely do not think it is patronizing in the least. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, elements of Animal Crossing are positively arcane. Like who would know you're supposed to bury furniture on the island, leave a spade lying around, download the island to the Gameboy Advance, watch your islander dig up the treasure and replace it, then go back to the island and dig up what he buried? |
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Ketch .
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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And then there is the much remarked upon "You found a Red Rupee! It is worth 20 Rupees. Joy!" or "This small key can only be used in this dungeon".
(It probably all comes down to Miyamoto's idea that you need to delight the child.) |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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yeah, the unfortunate trend in most - but not all - contemporary nitendo games is to explain to the player everything she's expected to do in great detail. see the beginning-of-level movies in mario vs. donkey kong for a particularly unfortunate example.* what i find especially uncessary are the "tutorial chapters" which open many games, obvious or not. there are games which ought to have tutorials, certainly - strategy games, elaborate puzzlers - but nothing as simple and straightforward as a mario game. those are incredibly patronising, and there's no room for discovery when your capabilities are explained in arduous detail.
* note that these are fine in umihara, where they probably originated. umihara only shows you a couple, at the beginning of the game, and they illustrate nuances of the game system that beginning players are probably not aware of. _________________
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Are Mario games open and obvious to people who have never played a game before? I don't believe I could give my mother a copy of New Super Mario Bros. and have her pick it up and play because years and years ago she once played the original SMB.
Is this an issue between tutorial stages, or whether or not they should be optional? |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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well, the thing is, you should be able to teach me how to jump and then let me figure the rest out on my own. i don't need a movie explaining how to jump to a moving platform when i know how to jump to a stationary platform: expect that i'm smart enough to wait until the platform's within reach.
also, my mother bought new super mario bros. a few weeks ago and is having no problems with it. and i think any questions that might arise from the game should be answerable by looking at the instruction booklet. it's the interruption of gameplay to explain what should be apparent/figure outable that i find annoying and patronizing. _________________
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Nintendo games: patronising? |
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Ketch wrote: | Is it me, or do many (GC) games feel patronising, partly due to the sound effects... ie. Luigi's grunts and groans in L.M and the character noises in Wind Waker. But even Metroid Prime feels patronising (okay, I've only got 7 p/c in). Metroid feels patronising because it relies far too much on a formula of exploration. Which is also the problem with Luigi's Mansion. These games have a very structured progression which makes things feel predictable- even STALE?. The same happens in Zelda: Wind Waker.
Maybe this is just me though? |
I'm with you until the formula of exploration bit. Structured progression does not bother me. I like working within structures, testing their limits. I think a lot of the fun from playing these kinds of games is just figuring out what the game wants you to do, and then seeing if you are any good at doing it. Just because there is only one way to go doesn't make a game feel stale to me. I like thinking about things in sequence, or figuring out the middle of a chain of actions without knowing the beginning, then I figure out the beginning and there is that 'ahh' moment when it all falls into place. And I think maybe the attitude of inferiority a lot of people have about not being in control--this bugs me a lot in the way some people read literature, too--contributes to the sense of condescension that many get from playing these games.
And I don't think Luigi's Mansion quite feels the same way as Zeldas and Metroids in terms of these exploration chain sequences, although it too is very delicately structured.
Hint to make Metroid Prime feel a little less patronising: Turn off the hint system if you haven't (I think you can select this in the options).
As for tutorial segments, I don't know how I feel about them, really. I appreciated the Gears of War tutorial immensely, but that may be because it is so different from most games I play. I think my favorite games include a lot more self-learning, though. As far as platformers go, Yoshi's Island and Mario 64 both do a good job of making certain things in the environment obviously look like you are supposed to interact with them, and then you either figure it out immediately by looking at them and thinking about what you are able to do in terms of control, or you try shit until it all clicks. And then for the most part the 'tutorials' in both of those games are completely optional (the talking boxes in YI, the Toads all around the castle in SM64). Okay, I think I lost focus while I was writing all of that since I made it so long. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | yeah, the unfortunate trend in most - but not all - contemporary nitendo games is to explain to the player everything she's expected to do in great detail. see the beginning-of-level movies in mario vs. donkey kong for a particularly unfortunate example.*
* note that these are fine in umihara, where they probably originated. umihara only shows you a couple, at the beginning of the game, and they illustrate nuances of the game system that beginning players are probably not aware of. |
Donkey Kong '94 (which Mario vs. Donkey Kong is a rather pale imitation of) has Umi Hara-style movies. Twice per world we're shown a little cinema of Donkey Kong running off with Pauline and Mario chasing after them, but each time Mario will display a new move you might not have known you had. What's brilliant about this is I didn't even realise that I was being shown new moves for the first few of these, since the movies are entertaining in their own right.
I kind of like the rupee collection messages. 'Not too shabby!' |
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