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Recommend dhex some good jRPGs.

 
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Mr. Mechanical
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: Recommend dhex some good jRPGs. Reply with quote

Topic inspired by the Toups post in the other thread about the big dudes with guns that aren't afraid to cry.

...

Tell dhex the jRPGs he needs to play in order to truly appreciate the genre. We know so far that he hates Grandia 2, Final Fantasy X, Dragon Warrior VII, and Dark Cloud 2.

So! Whatever you do don't mention those games. Talk about the truly top-tier stuff, the games that transcend the genre. Do any of those games exist? I don't know, but I like Earthbound a lot despite it being Dragon Quest with a different setting. It's that different setting that makes all the difference, really.

Okay, guys, your turn.

edit-Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter suggestion. There, now we don't have to wait for someone to mention that one.


Last edited by Mr. Mechanical on Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dug Romancing Saga. The PS2 one. It took a while to grow on me though.

Also Yakuza is pretty much just a jRPG but instead of getting into battles with monsters dudes run up to you on the street and call you a fucker or something.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't do it Dhex!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Don't do it Dhex!


I'm pretty sure he won't. I just felt like making a new topic.

I'm going to check out Romancing Saga one of these days, maybe.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, OK then.

Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga is my recomendation.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vagrant Story? Bahamut Lagoon? Front Mission is worth a shot, but in that case, why not just play Cybernator?

And I'm stuck in Europe, but Valkyrie Profile and, tentatively, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night have always sounded extremely compelling and genuinely original titles to me, especially the former. I have a hard time enjoying fantasy if it doesn't display a modicum of freshness.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He should play Anachronox because it's a console-styled jRPG inspired by Chronotrigger, made by Americans for the PC and is actually an adventure game cunningly disguised as a jRPG.

I enjoyed it way more than most jRPGs.

But yeah, Chronotrigger and Earthbound are other ones I enjoyed.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a bad suggestion, though I wouldn't recommend Chrono Trigger personally. It's still a formulaic anime tale as far as I'm concerned, though at least the interface isn't utterly jarring.

Earthbound might not be all that accessible, though it is an uncommon game as far as jRPGs go. It's humour isn't for everyone and is pretty, well, Japanese.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't deny that, I was actually going to add a comment about Chronotrigger along the lines of "even though the characters lack depth and are pretty cliche", but the whole time travelling and varied locations made me love it. Earthbound is pretty japanese, but not Mystical Ninja japanese!

Anachronox is very LucasArts-y.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i liked symphony of the night.

i have played a lot of jrpgs i think. almost all the final fantasies, grandia 2 (is dark cloud an rpg?), chrono cross/trigger, the introduction sequence to xenogears, dw 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, crystalis, sukoden 3, shadow hearts, the kotors, uh and some other stuff i've probably forgotten.

oh hey what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_differences_in_computer_and_console_role-playing_games
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These two are very common examples, but so be it.

If you haven't played FFVI, you really should. The story is just as cliche and (at times) incoherent as you'd expect, but it's worth it for the aesthetic, which pervades the graphics, music, gameplay, etc., and is actually consistent and sometimes subtle, not a campy excessive fantasy mishmash.

Xenogears is really, really not worth the slog, but it does actually have some real philosophical themes, whatever the haters say. Read a plot summary, if one exists.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've played final fantasy vi. about 8 or so years ago. it was pretty good at the time.

this is going to sound terrible, but i seriously doubt that a jrpg that's biting nietzchean titles is going to really rock my boat.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne.

It is basically the Tim Rogers autobiography jRPG, but in a good way. Run around Tokyo, which is on the inside of a hollow sphere after the apocalypse, and consort with ghosts and demons. There are supposed to be some Buddhist themes in there or something but just relax and enjoy the angels in bondage gear.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just played 12 hours of dragon warrior vii. i can't believe how much i want to play it despite how vapid it is.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
crystalis

No action RPG has ever surpassed Crystalis for me.

My recommendation would be Planescape: Torment, but I get the impression that pretty much everyone here has played it. Especially someone like dhex (though I could be mistaken).

Edit: Oh, never mind. Missed the J.

player 2 wrote:
dragon warrior vii

I think I still intend to finish this game some day. Every year or so, I play some more of it for a night or two.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
this is going to sound terrible, but i seriously doubt that a jrpg that's biting nietzchean titles is going to really rock my boat.

Oh, Xenosaga is just trash. 'gears doesn't have much to do with Nietzsche, at least explicitly. I guess there's some Recurrence, though it's specifically non-Eternal, and some questions about how humans should live post-religion, though as far as I know (ie, not very far) the game's answers are not at all Nietzschean.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only two jrpgs i really care for are dragon quest III (gameboy color edition) and mother.

and the fushigi no dungeon games, but those are really just roguelikes that dress up as jrpgs for halloween.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think dhex will enjoy Xenogears, it has some nice locales, but is mostly a drag.

Yeah, unfortunately, I can't really recommend one. I've been trying to enjoy the genre, but failing pretty consistently.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he would probably enjoy the absurdly displaced religious iconography.

i'm thinking mostly of the plushy crucifixion.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't really recommend any old school jRPGs with a straight face. They seem to date themselves more than most any other genre. If you don't have the nostalgia factor it's hard to appreciate them (and if dhex hates the genre I'm pretty certain nostalgia's only going to make him mad or something). That said, I think he might like Final Fantasy XII and/or Phantasy Star Universe. FFXII because it's fucking amazing and PSU because it's like a Diablo that really, really wants you to play with other people.

Other than that I might recommend the Parasite Eve games. They're actiony and have sweet shit like pointless shower scenes. Bonus points for the first game for taking place in NY.

Other than that I'm not really sure.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeez, uh.

The GBC remake of Dragon Warrior. I play it at least once a year.

Really I'd say stick with the mindless/cute games. The "real philosophical themes" are the worst things about jrpgs. Super Mario RPG is go! Though Superstar Saga's probably easier to get into and finish.

DWVII is still my favorite game, yes hi I have bad taste. I can play that game over and over. (I have twice, and yes, I got ridiculously overpowered twice, for no reason other than I love that fucking game.) Every time someone says something like "I just can't finish it" it makes me want to play it for them. If I had the equipment I'd totally record a full run of the game, 100 hours, yeah. With my Slime controller. Fuck yeah it would be so boring to watch me whistle and fight the same battles over and over and talk to every town person even though they don't say anything FUCK I might be getting the bug again.

The story with the priest/demon and the children in the present is the best.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've never played diablo either.

i watched the intro movie of xenogears (i'd found it in a gamestop for something like five dollars) and turned off the playstation about halfway through it (i guess?)

i played super mario rpg a while back when i had a snes. it wasn't bad.

i have no real patience for grinding anymore, which actually eliminates quite a few rpgs, east and west.

and screw philosophical themes; i just want meaningful choices (or even the illusion thereof). i lke how slavers and traders who travel with them automatically hate my guts in fallout2 cause i have a goody goody rep. it's not much, but it's enough.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex, I think I know you well enough personally to say that the only one that you might truly enjoy is Panzer Dragoon Saga.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
i just want meaningful choices (or even the illusion thereof).

Play Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leading a horse to water...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked Diablo II.

Oh wait, this is JRPGs... ew...

Pokemon is experiencing a resurgence in popularity at my school. Mainly because my group of friends is so ridiculously competitive some wonder how we're actually friends in the first place.

Mario RPG was cool. I haven't played it since I was 6 or so though.

I'm buying Star Ocean 2 after school today because the local mom and pop game store is holding it for me kind of. I had played it a long time ago and enjoyed it, saw it there for $15, didn't have $15, and told them I'd be back for it on Friday after I pick up my paycheck if they'll hold it for me.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually choice in JRPGs is "in which order do I want to do the events at the end of the game?" In which case FFVI is probably your best pick. But even the original DW and Phantasy Star have that kinda thing going on, and that's not "meaningful" choice in any sense.

The best attempts I've seen, by far, to incorporate illusory choice into a distinctly Japanese game (though not exactly RPGs) are Steambot Chronicles and Way of the Samurai. Plus no grinding in either.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
i have no real patience for grinding anymore, which actually eliminates quite a few rpgs, east and west.

This is usually the test for me of if I like an RPG anymore. The moment they have me need to level grind I either turn it off or finish it. 90% of the time it gets turned off.

Also, I don't remember ever level grinding or even paying attention to my level in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have to say that I really enjoyed grinding in Disgaea, but that was because the battle system was a lot of fun and I really felt a sense of accomplishment when I leveled up.

Between work and school though, I don't really have time for long RPG grinding sessions.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i vaguely remember the last crusade, the lucasarts adventure ish title, right? something about a library and nazis and shit. it rings far off bells.

i think minigames kind of piss me off, though i'd have to suss out why. i remember thinking the dark cloud fishing thing was insulting for some reason (and i was unemployed no less, so it's not like i was doing much else).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
i vaguely remember the last crusade, the lucasarts adventure ish title, right? something about a library and nazis and shit. it rings far off bells.

That's the one. I tend to go on about it because it's still as great as I remember it being when I first played computer games as a nipper. Relevant to your requirements because it brilliantly manages to give off the illusion of multiple possibilities in a genre (adventure games) which is typically very narrow. There's a real feel of cause and effect at play and it seems that they designed the puzzles so that in context the player can pretty much come up with all sorts of alternatives, all of which have been predicted. It's a very solid piece of game design to me, effortful and utterly replayable.

Minigames generally seem excessive or poor attempts at adding depth which the main meat of the game should have been focused on. It's hard for them not to feel superfluous.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did enjoy Final Fantasy IV.

I think what made it work was that, in stark contrast to other Jrpgs I've played, it is briskly paced and low on filler. The narrative is relatively tight, extraneous characters are kept to a minimum, and wihin a reasonable amount of time the game is over with.

I have tried to find similarly concise Jrpgs, but most are unfocused, self-indulgent abortions (not in a good or fun way).

I hear the first two Suikodens are worth playing, but have not yet found the time.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seconding the minigame hate, unless they're quick and painless. Dhex did you ever get to play Spheda in Dark Cloud 2? It was the golf game you could play on each dungeon floor. I've actually heard people compliment it (I think I even heard the term "godly") but it was so goddamn lazy they couldn't even bother to sort out the conflicts with random dungeon generation. I ended up with a couple of holes that were completely impossible. I remember one I was supposed to hit the ball in the hole in one stroke, because they were so close together, but the game didn't bother to notice that there was a FUCKING WALL BETWEEN THE TWO.

Also obligatory FFX chocobo race mention. Like solving a crossword puzzle with misspelled words. Even if you complete it you just feel dirty afterward.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was actually pretty disappointed with Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga. It felt like a watered-down Paper Mario (N64) to me. Some scenes were very amusing, but well before I was halfway through the game I started feeling that there was way too much making the game longer without adding meaningful content. By the end of the game, I was quite tired of it--and it wasn't even that long.

Swimmy wrote:
The best attempts I've seen, by far, to incorporate illusory choice into a distinctly Japanese game (though not exactly RPGs) are Steambot Chronicles and Way of the Samurai. Plus no grinding in either.

A couple of people have recently asked me about current-generation RPGs and I've named a few but told them to play Steambot Chronicles instead.

Mr Mustache wrote:
I have tried to find similarly concise Jrpgs, but most are unfocused, self-indulgent abortions (not in a good or fun way).

I thought that Dragon Warrior 3 and 4 were very good in this way. I don't know why video game creators include so much writing in games without bothering to get decent writers.

I already mentioned it, and it's not a JRPG, but Planescape: Torment has probably the best writing I've seen in any video game. I think it's exemplary.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swimmy wrote:
Seconding the minigame hate, unless they're quick and painless. Dhex did you ever get to play Spheda in Dark Cloud 2? It was the golf game you could play on each dungeon floor. I've actually heard people compliment it (I think I even heard the term "godly") but it was so goddamn lazy they couldn't even bother to sort out the conflicts with random dungeon generation. I ended up with a couple of holes that were completely impossible. I remember one I was supposed to hit the ball in the hole in one stroke, because they were so close together, but the game didn't bother to notice that there was a FUCKING WALL BETWEEN THE TWO.


That would have been a genius minigame, if they had actually tweaked it a bit. I hate how the "edges" of the "paths" in the random dungeon construction make you lose your ball and start over, and having to hit the "ball" into the portal with the right color (which changes everytime it bounces) is just evil. The basic idea (golf, but in the random dungeons, and with the "hole" being a portal in midair) could be worked into a playable game, but unfortunately no one at Level 5 said "hey, aren't these bottomless pits kind of making the game ass?"

Which is a shame, because the other little systems, like photography/inventioneering and the town-building, were fun, if not completely fleshed out.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked the fishing mini-game in Dark Cloud 2, I admit to playing some Spheda. Perhaps that is part of the reason I stopped playing that game.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dhex did you ever get to play Spheda in Dark Cloud 2?


no, i think i saw some fishing. i think it was actually the idea of fishing that did me in. i didn't play very long, because it just had this kind of generic japanese feeling to it that i hadn't quite identified at this point in my life. sort of like how you can spot a shitty early 3d title from a mile away.

on rpg writing:
planescape is great (for a game, obviously) but there's clearly not much of a market, as you can find in criticisms of the game (i.e. best rpg i've ever read, etc etc and so forth). there's no great market for good writing in games because it's just not what games are necessarily very good at. or rather, the medium doesn't have to have great writing, even in an rpg. it just has to be good enough to hold up the areas where the game parts need to be glued into place.

now, i think something like final fantasy x is basically spitting the mouth of anyone who plays it, but i am clearly in the minority here. (based on sales, i mean) there's a difference between ridiculously thin plots in action games (hi, fear!) and story-based rpgs. morrowind doesn't need a good plot because the player creates it; jrpgs need a decent plot because the player is playing the story, rather than sort of generating it through their actions.

that morrowind happens to have a far more dense story environment to play around in compared to jrpg xyz is partially a function of lineage and partially a function of design; there's not a whole lot of what would be called traditional role playing in the jrpg tradition, because they exist to tell a story. in some ways they took some of the more closed elements of the early age of pc rgps and never quite moved away from them.

i've been told by a few people now to play ffxii when it comes out, but i doubt i will; i have no interest in giving sqeenix any more of my money and frankly, i'd rather just play fallout again.

different strokes for different folks.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swimmy wrote:

DWVII is still my favorite game, yes hi I have bad taste.


I've still never heard anyone convincingly tell me why they like dw7 so much! ..aside from just, like, they like it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWVII is wonderful because it's the simple and charming jRPG aesthetic stretched out to a pastoral extreme. I'm still not very far, really (30-some hours in?), but I haven't yet gotten any sort of impression that there's a Great Evil threatening the world — it's all about adventure and discovery, pure and simple. The plot is even kind of absurd: you're discovering new land by putting together puzzles that reveal their locations, sending the tiny island that your characters live on (population: a few dozen?) into a frenzy because they're finally realizing that they're not alone in the vast blue sea! This has something to do with an epic battle of the distant past, in which God and the Demon Lord fought and all the lands (except for your own, Estard) were "locked away" with magical seals before they both disappeared from the world, apparently.

But none of that really matters, because it's how the game feels that draws you in. Of course you're going to have to have a perverse affinity for level-grinding and all kinds of standard jRPG fare, but atmospherically DWVII is a dream. It's comfort food; it's your favorite dumb, nostalgic '80s movie, with a bucket of popcorn, blankets, and fuzzy blue Slime slippers.
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Swimmy
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Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 990
Location: Fairfax, VA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a_plus wrote:
Swimmy wrote:

DWVII is still my favorite game, yes hi I have bad taste.


I've still never heard anyone convincingly tell me why they like dw7 so much! ..aside from just, like, they like it.

Oh, well, I wrote a thing about it a while back if you're really bored (though I took back a couple things I said there). Mind that I'm completely insane should you choose to read that.
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dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
loves your favorite videogame


Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 6563
Location: bohan

PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are some classy haiku in issue 7, too.

i've heard the first three hours are really good.
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antitype
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Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first three or so hours are nice, but I don't think it starts to get really good until after at least ten.
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
i've heard the first three hours are really good.

Yes, my theory is that the first three hours are better than any recent zelda game
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