The Gamer's Quarter

[Shapermc]

This article is all about how most current games are either 1) Too mature in theme or 2) Too complex, for children. Is he wrong? I don't really think so.

I just had my neighbors kid over while they went to the hospital for a few hours. It took him about 20 min to beat the first level of Super Mario Brother 1. He was 5. About a year ago (out of the kindness of my heart) I gave him an extra GB Pocket ColorI had and about 4 random games and he has Spyro and a few other games for the PS1, so I know that he has played games before.

My other neighbor has a 6 year old. He plays Star Wars Galaxies with his mom. Now... don't get me wrong MMO's are not the most complex games to control, but there is a lot to manage. I guess he uses a Wookie and people just think he does not like to talk much.

So... what am I getting at? Well, I don't know. I just find it interesting that 2 kids (one on one side of my house, one on the other) who are less than 6 months apart in age, can have such a difference in comprehension of games.

[wourme]

I wish people wouldn't use the word "mature" when talking about elements that qualify a video game for an ESRB "mature" rating. These elements can be present in a game that has a mature theme, or they can be entirely absent. In my experience, such things are wanton more often than tasteful, and the intended audience is the farthest thing from mature. This article phrased it well: "teenage fantasy plays."

I find many of the games that are allegedly aimed at children to be more intelligent and worthwhile than their TV and movie counterparts. I couldn't stand most kids' shows even as a kid. Of course there are video games for kids that are just as poor in content, but they haven't seemed to be as prevalent thus far.

I question the idea that Nintendo's franchises really are meant for children. I think that some of them simply have universal appeal rather than being restricted to certain audiences, such as, say Grand Theft Auto. Of course, Nintendo also has their share of inane games that really do seem to be aimed at children or people looking for a shallow experience.

I think you can have it both ways. A video game can be simple and fun enough to be grasped by a young person but artistic and intelligent enough for anyone. The counterfeit of this is when, for example, a kids' show is complete drivel but has some crude humor "for adults." I sure hope this trend doesn't infest video games. Or maybe it already has.

[dark steve]

The intellectual flaw here is "kids are dumb," which is a crock of shit. Kids are smart. If the game is interesting, they'll play it till they get good at it. If a five year old is having trouble with mario, it's because he's never seen a game like it before and has to acclimate.

[Shapermc]

As the guy pointed out in his article the SpoungeBob games are pretty terrible. I know because my neighbor, with the Mario Problem kid, bought one and it is hard. Like there are major control issues that make the rolling off a cliff into a jump on DK Country seem like a cake walk in comparison.

The only really good example I can come up with just happen.

For what ever reason my wife loves the Spyro series. After the first GC title came out and had a frame rate of about 15fps and you could get stuck in just about any wall she put off getting "Heroes Tale," the most recent Spyro game. I got the game for her recently when it was on sale for $10 at Circuit City. Now the game overall is really simple and silly. Most of the challenge just comes with exploring the areas, which is good stuff for kids.

Then there are these levels where you are Sparkz (the dragonfly/lifemeter that follows around Spyro) on-rail shooting levels. My wife called me away from playing SotN telling me that I needed to beat this level for her. I figured I could do it on one or two tries no problem. I mean, I beat Panzer Dragoon Orta on hard, this should be a peice of cake. NO. They only allow you to take 3 hits through out the level, the level is super long, and your dragonfly takes up a gigantic ammount of the screen. It took me over a dozen tries to beat it, then I had to do it again where it was even more difficult (although since the level is the same with just more/faster enemies it was not as hard as the first time).

There use to be more of these kinds of things in the earlier Spyros. I remember there was still this on-rails is swimming level in one of the PS1 Spyros that I never did beat for my wife. She spent over an hour trying as did I. A similar level is available in this new one, but they seemed to have balanced it out a little better.

[Ryan - SuperWes' Bane]

This is sorta off the subject, but kids that have only played video games since they were little are actually having fun playing board games. I read this in a Japanese newspaper saying that they expect board games to be hot this year cause kids have never played them before. Sorta makes sense . . . but I still won't sit down and play it with my grandma. Board games that is .. .

[wourme]

A lot of people think that they don't like tabletop games just because they haven't been exposed to real ones. In my experience, you'll find very few, if any, that are worth playing in a store that is not exclusively devoted to games.

Most of my favorites are from Germany, but now I'm curious to know whether there are any good ones in Japan. I don't think I've ever heard of any other than a few extremely old ones, and I'm not sure which of those even originated in Japan.

[dessgeega]

[wourme]

[Shapermc]

[ApM]

I've been fascinated with the idea of playing with icehouse pyramids, recently.

[wourme]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I think this is interesting enough to mention but not interesting enough to warrant a new topic.

There's a Rockman-themed Settlers of Catan. It's only in Japan, though.

I think this type re-theming is silly, generally, and I'm also actually kind of tired of Settlers of Catan. But if I found a way to get this at a price that isn't outrageous, I'd certainly be tempted to.

[FortNinety]

Yeah, speaking as someone who writes for children, I can tell you, kids are most certainly not dumb, and those who feel that they are simply their parents all over again.

[simplicio]

[Shapermc]

Well, there is also the 2D vs 3D thing too.

EDIT: I should expand on that. Ninja Gaiden was about learning when/where to jump/slash in order to stay alive. It involved usually one directional button press and at most two command inputs. Things were pretty much all in the same location and the perspective was fair in ratio to the screen size. The controls always worked the same, and mostly always worked (i.e. responsive). This is much easier for young minds to wrap around and deal with. Playing 3D games for kids is much more complicated than 2D games.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[Mr. Mechanical]

[SuperWes]

[Shapermc]

Ok, look, exceptions don't prove a rule here. That aside, an X and Y axis is still less amount of space to navigate. 2D is easier to navagate than 3D, pure and simple here. This isn't quantium physics, 3D worlds come with the ability to explore an entirely different perspective or axis. It is more complitcated. I'm not saying it is complicated, any one can do it.

Shit, Wes just admited to me on the phone that he gets lost in games easily, 3D worlds make this even easier to get lost.

One experience with a relative doesn't prove anything. Do a study by going to a day care place with 5 year olds. Take half of them and have them play 2D games and take the other half and have them play 3D games. See which figure out the controls faster.
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[SuperWes]

But what you're forgetting is that kids are willing to put up with a lot more shit than you or I are.

Do you remember how horribly designed some of those NES games we used to play were? We figured out how to play Deadly Towers! We figured out Rygar! We beat Ghosts and Goblins! Bart vs. the Space Mutants makes no sense, but we figured out how to paint the town purple anyway. Somehow I used an endless string of passwords and written notes beat Wal Street Kid when I was a kid and I still don't understand the stock market.

The point is that complexity is much less of an issue than adults make it out to be. Kids aren't as dumb as adults think. If they can learn how to speak a language (or more than one in some cases) in three years they can learn how to move around a 3D space.

-Wes
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[Harveyjames]

Complex games aren't a big deal for the kids willing (i.e. geeky enough) to put the time in to learn to play them. I used to play Elite II: Frontier when I was a kid which is like the most complicated and unforgiving game in the world. I loved it, but everyone else, from my sister to the kids at school thought it was awful.

The point is kids can in theory learn to play complex games, it's just that most of them can see how their time might be better spent. Games aren't just for the geeky kids.

[Mister Toups]

I couldn't play any 3D games until I was a teenager, guys.

I was also pretty damned smart as a kid. It's not a matter of intelligence so much as it is coordination. Kids who can play 3D games well are probably slightly less rare than child violin virtuosos.
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where were you when nana komatsu got a wii?

[OtakupunkX]

I picked Mario 64 up when I was 7 or 8 and caught on within 2 minutes. It just felt so perfect. You move the stick and he moved in that direction. It was good.

I want to note that I'm pretty much average in every sense of the word, too.

[Swimmy]

My 6-year-old niece cannot play 3D games at all. She can't really play 2D games either but she can at least make the character move. I also noticed that when playing 3D games she goes straight for the Dpad.
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"Ayn Rand fans are the old school version of Xenogears fanboys."
-seryogin

[FortNinety]

[OtakupunkX]

The Rugrats game wasn't difficult, it just had eye-burning graphics and really bad everything else.

One time I rented it when I was 10 and it made me cry because it was so bad. True story.

[Harveyjames]

My youngest sister can't play 3D games, either. She says 'when games went 3D, that's when I stopped being able to play them.' Even Mario Kart is beyond her, which is weird since the 'camera' is also your viewpoint- you would think it was no more complex and foriegn a concept than walking down the street or driving a car. She is 27.

My second youngest sister on the other hand has no trouble understanding and playing 3D games. It's weird. I'd say it's probably more to do with your willingness to overcome the learning curve than any scientifically quantifiable lack of spatial cognition in your brain area (or is it?).

[Shapermc]