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Games can't feel real when not based in reality
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Ketch
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lestrade wrote:

The je ne sais quois of Super Metroid is that despite this, the game feels more real than most games that try to impress with realistic levels and heady storylines. !


Likewise, Half-Life 2 felt *LESS* real because of the gravity gun, no matter how believably rendered the whole concept is too (unreal).
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Dracko
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly didn't get that impression. What is it about the gravity gun that you found so jarring?
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Ketch
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
I certainly didn't get that impression. What is it about teh gravity gun that you found so jarring?


It was very convincing, but they DON'T exist! So the better it was done the more fantastical the game became. (No more so than any other game though).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
I certainly didn't get that impression. What is it about teh gravity gun that you found so jarring?
I found it somewhat less jarring than being able to just pick up and move things with no arms.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketch wrote:
Dracko wrote:
I certainly didn't get that impression. What is it about teh gravity gun that you found so jarring?


It was very convincing, but they DON'T exist! So the better it was done the more fantastical the game became. (No more so than any other game though).


What's in the world are you talking about? Haven't you ever heard of suspention of disbelief?

For the record I'm with J. Goodwin on this one. It really bugs me that Gordon picks up and throws cans without using his arms.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the record i may be the only person who doesn't notice the no arms can thing, but in my defense, ultima underworlds 1/2 and system shocks and etc.
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Dracko
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To your credit, rather.

Ketch wrote:
Dracko wrote:
I certainly didn't get that impression. What is it about teh gravity gun that you found so jarring?


It was very convincing, but they DON'T exist! So the better it was done the more fantastical the game became. (No more so than any other game though).

Neither do plumbers jumping onto turtles and kicking their shells around (at least not as a career), bricks left at the mercy of a single ball, slowly bouncing itself upon a single, sentient beam or, indeed, Chocobos or Pikachus.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but none of the games you reference there really aim for suspension of disbelief, at least not in the way that Half Life 2 tries to put you in it's universe.

I found some of the worldly detail in the game really grabbed me. Things like the old computers and empty paint cans and other miscellany in the offices and abandoned houses were so true to objects I actually see on a daily basis that it just made everything seem that much more concrete. This is a half finished thought, I may come back to it, but somehow it made the fantastic things seem more believable.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
It really bugs me that Gordon picks up and throws cans without using his arms.


That's something that really bothered me about Deus Ex when I was playing that.

I plan to spend this coming weekend playing through Half-Life 2. I started it on Saturday and really, really enjoyed it. The only problem is that since I'm playing it on PC and my computer is not equipped to handle the game I'm going to have to invade a friend of mine's house.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lackey wrote:
Yeah, but none of the games you reference there really aim for suspension of disbelief, at least not in the way that Half Life 2 tries to put you in it's universe.

Wrong, everything wants you to suspend your disbelief.

Quote:
Suspension of disbelief refers primarily to the willingness of a reader or viewer to accept the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the illusion. However, suspension of disbelief is a do ut des: the audience agrees to provisionally suspend their judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment.

Inconsistencies or plot holes that violate the initial premises, established canon, or common sense, are often viewed as breaking this agreement. For particularly loyal fans, these 'dealbreakers' are usually accompanied by a sense of betrayal.


The point is that you go into a game instantly accepting the situation. If it is a blocky plumber that jumps on walking mushrooms and turtles you have started your suspension of disbelief.

If the gravity gun broke the suspension, it would most likely be because you had accepted the world you were put in, but at the point that you got the gravity gun it was "too unrealistic" for what you set up as internal continuity.

Also, I didn't have that problem. The grav gun worked really well within the world of the game.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Talking of plumbers and turtles, I just found out that most of Bowser's children are named after musicians Iggy (Pop), Roy(Orbison), and Lemmy (Kilmeister ie. from Motorhead), Ludwig Van Bowser (duh!).)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I felt the gravity gun fit HL2's world quite well. This a world where technology exists for bending space and time, allowing beings to travel vast distances, even to parallel universes. It seems feasible that a portable tool capable of warping space enough to levitate small objects could be developed using the same research.

Having invisible arms and legs is a bit weird though, during the few instances when it's really noticeable. I can see how they pose issues from a technical standpoint in terms of collision and animation, but more games need to work on those issues rather than just ignoring them entirely. In Oblivion though, one can at least attribute the floating objects to telekinesis. ; )

As for cut scenes, I definitely prefer the type in Half Life 2 to the traditional non-interactive variety. This especially holds true for first-person perspective games, where leaving your body completely ruins the immersiveness. In third-person games this isn't so bad, and in some cases, like with the Final Fantasy RPGs, the scenes are beautifully done, making them beneficial to the game. I don't usually skip cut scenes, but I could stand to do without them most of the time.

I do agree about the slow NPCs in Oblivion. In some situations, it's downright annoying. The quest where you save the Argonian girl from the cult village was one such case. After bringing her to her horse, she proceeds to move incredibly slowly on horseback all the way back to her home town. You would think that you would at least make an effort to get away from your captors at a moderately brisk pace. She instead is slower on horseback than she was walking to the horse.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new Brothers in Arms game is aiming for more tangible corpo-realism by having the player interact in first person view within a real model in the game, in what the developers call a first person actor. The same degree of material credibility will also apply to objects your character will hold, guns or otherwise. I don't expect to see this in the episodic segments of Half-Life 2, but maybe for a potential Half-Life 3? It's certainly the sort of innovation I expected to see from next-gen material, along with, hopefully, more room left to choice and exploration in titles like BioShock and The Outsider.

In-game footage can be seen here.

And Ketch, I still find it somewhat surprising that you disliked the Gravity Gun on the grounds that it felt real enough as part of the world it was in. And frankly, I don't see how the DS is bringing much in the ways of innovation, just like I don't predict the Wii will succeed in this either. Old concepts with new controls are still old concepts.
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Lestrade
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
And frankly, I don't see how the DS is bringing much in the ways of innovation, just like I don't predict the Wii will succeed in thsi either. Old concepts with new controls are still old concepts.


Um... no. I can't even go into this.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cryoburner wrote:
I don't usually skip cut scenes, but I could stand to do without them most of the time.

I was trying to think if I have skipped the cutscene from any games and I couldn't. I do on the second play through of games, but not the first. Actually when I tought about it, I usually stop playing the game rather than skip its cutscenese.
Lestrade wrote:
Dracko wrote:
And frankly, I don't see how the DS is bringing much in the ways of innovation, just like I don't predict the Wii will succeed in thsi either. Old concepts with new controls are still old concepts.


Um... no. I can't even go into this.

He is partially right. Anyways, the DS is making dieing generas viable again at worst. At best it actually is innovating. If you want to argure it long enough we can get back to the point that "nothing is new" and be done.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The DS still does have a lot going for it, but it's not surprising it's not as popular in the West as it is in Japan. New Super Mario Bros. was all the lessons of the original platform series rolled into one, and even though the 2D Castlevania series has been utterly derivative tripe since they tried to repeat the success of Symphony of the Night, I'm looking forward to the new one, if only because it's a sequel to Bloodlines, one of the best games in the entire series. That's not all of the good stuff it has on display, of course. As a hand-held though, it's a slightly eclectic little piece with true brilliance on it, though less due to the stylus than most acknowledge. It's hard to deny how often some of the greats on it have resorted to the touchpad as simply a forgettable gimmick. I certainly find it more interesting than the PSP.

The Wii is just a repackaged GameCube. Hell, it uses the exact same GPU. Will we see interesting things on it? Sure, just like you'll find something oddball on any platform. But just look at the announced library: An action shooter, a 3D platformer, a Tony Hawk game, a Jap hammer hitting game. It's like the PS One all over again. And whatever your stance is on Microsoft or Sony, the PS3 and 360, as well as the PC, display far more power and offer larger environments to make something truly new and intriguing. Adding a wand to an already tame carrot-chopper or tennis game can't truly be called innovation, let alone invention.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
The DS still does have a lot going for it, but it's not surprising it's not as popular in the West as it is in Japan. New Super Mario Bros. was all the lessons of the original platform series rolled into one, and even though the 2D Castlevania series has been utterly derivative tripe since they tried to repeat the success of Symphony of the Night, I'm looking forward to the new one, if only because it's a sequel to Bloodlines, one of the best games in the entire series. That's not all of the good stuff it has on display, of course. As a hand-held though, it's a slightly eclectic little piece with true brilliance on it, though less due to the stylus than most acknowledge. It's hard to deny how often some of the greats on it have resorted to the touchpad as simply a forgettable gimmick. I certainly find it more interesting than the PSP.

The Wii is just a repackaged GameCube. Hell, it uses the exact same GPU. Will we see interesting things on it? Sure, just like you'll find something oddball on any platform. But just look at the announced library: An action shooter, a 3D platformer, a Tony Hawk game, a Jap hammer hitting game. It's like the PS One all over again. And whatever your stance is on Microsoft or Sony, the PS3 and 360, as well as the PC, display far more power and offer larger environments to make something truly new and intriguing. Adding a wand to an already tame carrot-chopper or tennis game can't truly be called innovation, let alone invention.


The problem with this assertion is that it ignores all of the games that actually use the interface to create new experiences. It's only natural that many of the games that are based on existing properties don't take advantage of the new interface, but the ones that do are the ones that shine the brightest. Some of my favorite DS games have been Trauma Center, Pac-Pix, Kirby's Canvas Curse, Warioware Touched, Brain Age, Feel the Magic, Meteos, Nintendogs, Pac-n-Roll, Polarium, Yoshi Touch and Go, and Phoenix Wright. I'll admit that some of these games don't need the touchscreen, but using it usually streamlines everything and makes the games feel a more natural and intuitive.

The games that look best on the Wii are the ones that take advantage of the remote. WarioWare, Super Mario Galaxy, the Wii Sports games, and Wii Plane are games that wouldn't really be possible without the remote. If that's not a sign of innovation I don't know what is.

-Wes
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J.Goodwin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
The Wii is just a repackaged GameCube. Hell, it uses the exact same GPU. Will we see interesting things on it? Sure, just like you'll find something oddball on any platform. But just look at the announced library: An action shooter, a 3D platformer, a Tony Hawk game, a Jap hammer hitting game. It's like the PS One all over again. And whatever your stance is on Microsoft or Sony, the PS3 and 360, as well as the PC, display far more power and offer larger environments to make something truly new and intriguing. Adding a wand to an already tame carrot-chopper or tennis game can't truly be called innovation, let alone invention.
I think "exact same" is saying more than we know. Same but faster is still not the "exact same" thing, and the GameCube was remarkably well balanced and efficient in its use of hardware. Essentially bottleneck free.

However, I have a lot of doubts about the Wii's apparent presumed success. From today's headlines it sounds like they're having problems converting the remote's design into something that can actually be mass produced without reliability issues. Yesterday it was a developer crowing about how they reduced the new Marvel game from 20 actions to 5 and have now reached 97% reliability in action recognition. We've had growing concerns as people have had longer periods to play with the console that you just get really freaking tired playing with it (in a totally anaerobic way...your arm just gets tired).

I'm particularly concerned about the reliability of recognition issue. CliffyB has it right when he says that they have to do "cover" right in Gears of War, because if the player believes that they're in cover, and gets killed...that's the last time they will use cover. If Wii gesture recognition is "blue" all over again...then this is bad.

At 97% recognition, assuming that you only use a gesture related action once every 30 seconds, you're very likely to find a problem in your first 15 minutes of play, and again every fifteen or so minutes after that...if your arm hasn't quit working by that point.

Indicators seem to be saying that the virtual console isn't all that people presumed it would be (for some reason, people appear to believe that every game on the NES, SNES, Genesis, and TG16 will be playable on day one). Of course, when you get down to it, you're really talking about Nintendo's own games, SEGA's own games, and Hudson Soft's own games. Those are three large portfolios, but even then it doesn't sound like every game in their portfolios is going to be playable initially, and many probably won't ever come along. I guess that Tecmo signed up recently as well, so that's another.

I guess that I'm not nearly as concerned about Nintendo's ability to actually deliver a console at some point in the next six months as I am about the word of mouth backlash that may hit it once it actually arrives in people's homes. You don't have to look any farther than the Xbox and 360 to see this in action. When someone's expectations aren't matched by the reality, you're up shit's creek unless you can visibly turn things around, and in some places...(Japan)...that's not enough.
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Dracko
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
If that's not a sign of innovation I don't know what is.

You may as well argue that Real World Golf is a model of ingenuity.

I've played tennis, arcadey flight sims and Mario 64 before. I have access to an arcade. If I wanted something akin to WarioWare, there's tons of mouse-based Flash gadgets out there. Between the Wii and Spore, for instance, or even Darwinia, I don't think there's much contest as to which shows actual creativity.

Most of the DS games you mentioned really aren't that good, and the rest aren't new in the least. The only of those I've found worthwhile at all was Meteos.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, I don't regard Spore as being anything other than iterative.

However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Pretty much all artistic content is iterative, has been since the first story was told.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
SuperWes wrote:
If that's not a sign of innovation I don't know what is.

You may as well argue that Real World Golf is a model of ingenuity.


Don't temp me.

Dracko wrote:
I've played tennis, arcadey flight sims and Mario 64 before. I have access to an arcade. If I wanted something akin to WarioWare, there's tons of mouse-based Flash gadgets out there. Between the Wii and Spore, for instance, or even Darwinia, I don't think there's much contest as to which shows actual creativity.


Creativity and innovation are not the same thing. It was innovative when Sony produced the very first Walkman, and that was just something that let you play your music on the road.

You seem to be suck in a mode where you're thinking about context. Sure, you've played games that are within these concepts before, but by changing the interface and the level of abstraction it can completely change the experience. Surely you don't think that throwing a paper airplane and flying a real plane give you the same feeling, do you? Looking at context they're both flying a plane, but the level of abstractions and the change in interface make them totally different experiences. Wii Airplane is more like flying a paper airplane, and that's fun. I've never really done that in a game.

You mention the arcade as a substitute for the real thing, and this is a good point. Why would anyone go to an arcade these days when you've got games that are deeper, look better, and have more variety in home games? People go because arcade games modify the interface and the level of physical immersion to a level that makes things more immersive, easily accessable, and competitive. The Wii allows us to come closer to having that at home, but without abandoning the potentiality for deep, good looking games with a lot of variety.

And for the record, Mario Galaxy is as big of a leap from Mario 64 as Mario 64 was from Super Mario World. It's a game where there are two characters that interact with each other. One of those players is Mario and the other is you with the remote. You're interacting with Mario and other objects on the screen using the pointer as Mario interacts with the objects on the screen as well. It's one of the few upcoming games I'm genuinely excited about. Saying that you don't need Mario Galaxy because you played Mario 64 is equivalent to saying you don't need Spore because you played SimCity.

Dracko wrote:
Most of the DS games you mentioned really aren't that good, and the rest aren't new in the least. The only of those I've found worthwhile at all was Meteos.


Well, there's no accounting for taste. If you played Kirby's Canvas Curse and didn't absolutely love it, you should probably sell your DS and start playing nothing but first person shooters.

Seriously though, what are your standards for creativity if completely modifying how we interact with games isn't enough?

-Wes
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
One of those players is Mario and the other is you with the remote.


Mario Galaxy = The first postmodern Mario game? Did I miss the boat on this one?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even outside Japan, the DS is currently the fastest selling game machine. I'm thinking of getting a DS Lite in the next few months, sometime after Onyx Black becomes available. I'm seeing a lot of great games for it, and the DS touch screen works well from what little I've tried. I never saw much of a reason to get a GBA, since it didn't really offer any innovative features over my Gameboy Color, but the DS seems like a change for the better. The PSP, on the other hand, is only offering more of the same. The only real thing it has going for it from a gaming perspective is its faster hardware and larger screen, which mostly only equate to prettier graphics.

The Wii is also something I'm considering getting, but I'll probably wait a bit for that. After it hits retail we'll have a better idea of how well it works. I personally think it will be a nice console, even if it lacks the graphical capabilities of its competitors. The XBox360 and PS3 don't really interest me as much right now. They seem mainly like faster, prettier versions of consoles from the prior generation. Maybe after they get a collection of good games, and drop in price, I'll consider one, but right now they don't really offer anything I can't do on my PC.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Wii Airplane is more like flying a paper airplane, and that's fun. I've never really done that in a game.

Download Glider at once, man!

Dracko, once in a while you should tell us about things you don't hate.

And for the record, the DS is a souped-up GBA in a roughly analgous way as the Wii a souped-up Gamecube.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
The Wii is just a repackaged GameCube. Hell, it uses the exact same GPU. Will we see interesting things on it? Sure, just like you'll find something oddball on any platform. But just look at the announced library: An action shooter, a 3D platformer, a Tony Hawk game, a Jap hammer hitting game. It's like the PS One all over again. And whatever your stance is on Microsoft or Sony, the PS3 and 360, as well as the PC, display far more power and offer larger environments to make something truly new and intriguing. Adding a wand to an already tame carrot-chopper or tennis game can't truly be called innovation, let alone invention.


I'm not sure who you're arguing with. Did you just feel like ranting?

Anyway, I'm certainly not in a position to agree or disagree with you because the system has not been released. Likewise, you're certainly not in a position to make these kinds of statements yet, unless you happen to have a lot of inside access in the industry. And I quibble with your forsaking the line-up based on genre composition. A game fitting into a genre has never been what is wrong with that game. Placing a game in a genre merely establishes a set of loose conventions within which to excel (or fail). HL2, the original subject of this thread before so many of us hijacked it, is a genre piece. It's an FPS. Anyway, you have nothing to stand on yet. Make a more intelligent post in a few months.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only time genre pieces can be bad is if you don't like the genre. (i.e. japan is my least favorite genre)

or if you expect the wii to like, change the universe or something.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.Goodwin wrote:
However, I have a lot of doubts about the Wii's apparent presumed success. From today's headlines it sounds like they're having problems converting the remote's design into something that can actually be mass produced without reliability issues. Yesterday it was a developer crowing about how they reduced the new Marvel game from 20 actions to 5 and have now reached 97% reliability in action recognition. We've had growing concerns as people have had longer periods to play with the console that you just get really freaking tired playing with it (in a totally anaerobic way...your arm just gets tired).

Okay, Ok, ok. Were talking about an Activision game here. Not exactly the best use of developer examples.

"[You] can shake the Wii remote side to side to fire web bullets with Spider-Man"

This is just lazy. No one is thinking inventivly yet, the above is borrowed from other games already previously in development. It's like fighting games: quarter circle forward fires a fireball.

This is also a game that was already produced, developed, and finished, then shoehorned into the Wii controller's layout. Red Steel played like shit at E3 where the Nintendo games and a few others played wonderfully. It is going to depend a lot on the developer.

Dhex has been saying for a long time that the Wii is going to be a disapointment for many many people. Too many think that the Wii will be like snorting cocaine right out of the box: perfect, euphoric, and complete. It won't. These people obviously don't remember the DS: it will take about a year for the really amazing games to come out with a few small jems in between.

As for people's expectations of the VC, well, that's their fault. You should be more well informed, or assume less.

Wes: Warioware Touched is shit.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
These people obviously don't remember the DS: it will take about a year for the really amazing games to come out with a few small jems in between.

Oh. Good. God.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next you'll pull out Dino the last Dinosaur.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Wes: Warioware Touched is shit.


Hey man, 11/12 aint bad! Lets replace it with Zookeeper/Pokemon Toroze.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Next you'll pull out Dino the last Dinosaur.
Fortunately, I have no idea what that is. I'm scarred enough by the cartoon flashbacks from my own youth.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Well, there's no accounting for taste. If you played Kirby's Canvas Curse and didn't absolutely love it, you should probably sell your DS and start playing nothing but first person shooters.


Thank you for saying that.

J. Goodwin wrote:
ShaperMC wrote:
Next you'll pull out Dino the last Dinosaur.
Fortunately, I have no idea what that is. I'm scarred enough by the cartoon flashbacks from my own youth.


I suggest you start doing some research, because you have seriously missed out.


Speaking of buying an Onyx DS Lite: anybody know how much fat DS's are worth right now as trade-ins? I want to be able to play Meteos in the dark.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
Speaking of buying an Onyx DS Lite: anybody know how much fat DS's are worth right now as trade-ins? I want to be able to play Meteos in the dark.


I don't think you'd get more than $50-60 for it (maybe), but that's still be a big chunk taken out of the Onyx DS Lite's price.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.Goodwin wrote:
Yesterday it was a developer crowing about how they reduced the new Marvel game from 20 actions to 5 and have now reached 97% reliability in action recognition.

Hmm, ok, I just read a different interview that clearified this statement:
MTV.com wrote:
"Early on I had, like, 20 gestures," Chrzanowski said. His bosses at Vicarious told him to tone things down because they didn't think people could remember all of that.


Also, I am kind of tired of people claiming that long term play on the Wii will make your arms tired. Seriously.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Also, I am kind of tired of people claiming that long term play on the Wii will make your arms tired. Seriously.


The best is when analysts use that as an argument for why the wii will fail.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister Toups wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
Also, I am kind of tired of people claiming that long term play on the Wii will make your arms tired. Seriously.
The best is when analysts use that as an argument for why the wii will fail.
Well, if it's enough of a pain in the ass that your attach rate is shit, and word of mouth is poor, then it'll fail.

I'm not claiming it will fail, I actually think it will probably generate a profit within about 18 to 20 months. Nintendo doesn't really lose money on consoles anymore (I'm not talking about console hardware, I'm talking about console programs as a whole). They really are out in their own little world, separate from the other hardware makers. I don't believe for a second that this is their last console (even though, yet again, they're saying it will be).
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.Goodwin wrote:
(even though, yet again, they're saying it will be).


That's not true at all. They said that the Wii will be their last console if it doesn't do better than the Gamecube did. But they're pretty much already assured it will do better.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
J.Goodwin wrote:
(even though, yet again, they're saying it will be).
That's not true at all. They said that the Wii will be their last console if it doesn't do better than the Gamecube did. But they're pretty much already assured it will do better.

-Wes
Did the GameCube ship more units than the N64? Financially, the GameCube was a smashing success, regardless. I'm sure that Wii will be just as financially successful as GameCube...unless the wider availability of 3rd party games in the first phase of the console's life cycle decreases Nintendo's ability to generate revenue from in-house games (yeah, like that's going to happen).
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.Goodwin wrote:
Mister Toups wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
Also, I am kind of tired of people claiming that long term play on the Wii will make your arms tired. Seriously.
The best is when analysts use that as an argument for why the wii will fail.
Well, if it's enough of a pain in the ass that your attach rate is shit, and word of mouth is poor, then it'll fail.

All I am saying about this is that of all the things and reasons that could cause the Wii to fail, arm strain will not be on the list when people finally get around to playing it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.Goodwin wrote:
Mister Toups wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
Also, I am kind of tired of people claiming that long term play on the Wii will make your arms tired. Seriously.
The best is when analysts use that as an argument for why the wii will fail.
Well, if it's enough of a pain in the ass that your attach rate is shit, and word of mouth is poor, then it'll fail.


I think the reason it's funny is that it's made under the very vocal assumption that people don't enjoy actually doing stuff that's fun. It's sort of like saying people are going to stop playing Basketball because it makes you tired.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
I think the reason it's funny is that it's made under the very vocal assumption that people don't enjoy actually doing stuff that's fun. It's sort of like saying people are going to stop playing Basketball because it makes you tired.

-Wes
Do you ever turn off the rumble feature in a game?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's sort of like saying people are going to stop playing Basketball because it makes you tired.


hey wes;

dunno if you've been outside lately, but that's basically what happened.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.Goodwin wrote:
Do you ever turn off the rumble feature in a game?

Nope. And if it's disabled by default I usually turn it on. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

The same passive vs active argument could also be made for Video Games vs TV. With a TV you're entertained without having to do anything vs. video games which actually require you to exert some effort.

But that's not really the point. The point is that people making the "Wii won't succeed because you have to move around" argument are usually doing so under the implication that gamers are lazy fuckers (when really TV watchers are lazy fuckers). One could also take that argument in the opposite, but no less offensive direction, and say that the Wii should come even more naturally to gamers because it requires you to move your wrist a lot.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rf wrote:
The basketball-type analogy immediately came to my mind too, but I don't think it totally fits. Tiredness from games wouldn't be painful in the workout sense, but in the "whoa I just spent five hours with my arm in the air and now all the blood's drained out" sense--or something similar. Games have particular potential to do this because any small ergonomic problems with some particular motion will become exaggerated when you lose yourself in the game and end up doing that action hundreds of times w/o thinking. Not to say anything in particular about the Wii and its success or failure, just pointing out the difference there.


(Topic split mid-write)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't imagine the Wii giving you anymore strain on your arms or wrists over a lengthy period of time than say, a five hour session of Halo multiplayer already does.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if it will all mean an increased focus on shorter games with greater replay value? Using Jungle Beat as an extreme example, anyway.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i hope so.

i still havn't played jungle beat.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's pretty good. It's surprisingly hardcore, considering the DK Bongos were designed for people who don't normally play games.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is basically the description of my perfect game.

i am feeling the urge to play some warioware twisted soon.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
that is basically the description of my perfect game.

i am feeling the urge to play some warioware twisted soon.


That's easily my favorite of the series right there.

I still pine for the days when Odama was going to be playable on the bongos. That was such a severe letdown.
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