The Gamer's Quarter

dessgeega · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject:

wes i was going to accuse you of having poor taste in games but you don't actually play them just buy them right
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SuperWes · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject:

J.Goodwin said in another topic that he's boycotting EA. I think this is hillarious and absurd and I'd like to know why. So why? Anyone can answer, but please note that avoiding games because you don't like them and boycotting them are two different things. If you "boycott" Madden EA because you're not a sports fan that's great, but keep your opinions to yourself.

-Wes

EDIT: Dessgeega's comment is a good example of what not to say.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

What the hell is going on?

This thread is you laughing at J. Goodwin then telling everone to keep their opinions to themselves? How can someone defend their stance if you won't let them share their opinon?

Hell, I almost boycott EA, but that's just because they never release anything that I am interested in! I think it would be interesting to look through my collection for EA games. Off the top of my head I know of Oddworld: Strangers Wrath and... Black & White for the PC?

Yeah, might as well be boycotting them (although I will be buying the 360 version of HL2).
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

friedchicken · . Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 496 Location: Port Land, OR

Really the only EA game I play is SSX. Or rather played, since the series has taken a severe nosedive as of On Tour (the 4th and most recent one). Something was lost in the move from pre-rendered characters to build-your-own boarder. My wife and I have decided not to bother with part 5.

But other than that I don't really give them any business as it is.

Yeah, though, the difference between not buying and boycotting is only semantics, even though they are defined differently. I guess it's just why you choose to not buy it and tell others not to buy it. Dhex? You're better at talking this up than me. Is telling someone not to buy an EA game because it stinks a boycott? I'm not sure.

So Wes, was that the right way to put it?

SuperWes · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject:

dessgeega · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject:

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

SuperWes · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject:

Do you not realize what I was trying to say? I meant I don't want people coming in here saying "EA sucks because I don't like sports!" because you're not actually boycotting EA. There's no coertion there, you're just basing what you buy on what you like. That's great and all, but it has no place in a thread about boycotting. Stuff like that will sidetrack the thread and the topic at hand will be lost. But I can see that that's already happened. Thanks guys!

-Wes
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OtakupunkX · . Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 730

I think EA fits that typical "evil big business" stereotype so it's easier for people to hate them. Personally, I haven't really played an EA game that I've liked in awhile (Burnout Revenge and The Sims 2 being exceptions, and I want to note that I haven't gotten to play Stranger's Wrath or TimeSplitters 3 yet), and I don't like the fact that they mainly put out liscensed games instead of original titles.

So one time I was at the mall and some guy had apparently bought a brand new copy of Need for Speed: Most Wanted. He was one of those typical Abercrombie model-wannabe guys there with his entourage consisting of typical Abercrombie model-wannabe kids and low self-esteem girls, and he kept flashing his copy of NFSMW around yelling "Whoo! Look what I got" like we all cared. I yelled "Hurray for you, dumbass, go play a good game" and gave him the finger at one point, as it seemed he was almost following my friends and I around the mall, but he pretended to ignore me.

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

Opinions follow:

Well, I don't really play a lot of sports titles as it is, basically just soccer and the occasional ping pong / tennis game. FIFA's easy to avoid because it's not very good. In fact, EA's games in general are getting very easy to avoid. It wasn't always so. My boycott goes way back.

However, I do not buy new games that EA has published because I disapprove of them as a company. Both in terms of their past actions and their current actions. I don't like the way that they go around buying up companies, pushing them hard to impossible deadlines, release shoddy products, then turn around and fire the former company's employees (if they can before those employees walk), and then produce as many sequels in that franchise as possible which retain none of the spirit of the original. The scandals involving non-payment of overtime for non-exempt employees was just another log on the fire.

I don't like it when companies negotiate exclusive licenses. Because of the FIFPro and FIFA and FIFA World Cup licenses, it is very difficult for other companies to present comprehensive soccer games with real players. At best, they have to separately negotiate with individual leagues for licenses. I don't play baseball games, and

Given that I think that the FIFA franchise is a poor soccer game, I resent that.

I feel very much the same way about Sony, as a matter of fact, and used to feel that way about Nintendo. Since the N64, Nintendo has been more deserving of attention IMHO because they've been putting out good games against a rising tide of competition. They've had their own tactics turned on them by Sony (exclusive or near exclusive deals with third parties). I buy and play their games when they are appealing to me, but it's always tainted by the mix of disgust for their past practices and pity for their long fall from the top of the pig pile.

Any one of those things on their own wouldn't be enough for me to say that I boycott a company's games. For instance, although I don't like exclusive licenses particularly for sports games, I still buy 2K's games. I haven't bought a baseball game since ... World Class Baseball on the TurboGrafx-16 (which is really the only baseball game you'll ever need, BTW).

If I were not boycotting EA, I would have bought BFME2, probably would buy Superman Returns, would think about Godfather, and would have bought Half Life 2 for XBOX and 360 brand new. The fact that now they do seem to be producing some games that I want to play is giving some teeth to it. Even the used games that I buy from EA are going to be quite limited.

However, I assure you, they will not get one penny from me for an indefinite period of time (probably as long as I will continue gaming, unless they fall on hard times).
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

dessgeega · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject:

SuperWes · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject:

Oooh! The License thing! Well, let me ask you this: If somebody paid someone else $10 to kick a homeless person who is the bad guy? Is it the guy who accepts the money and kicks the guy or is it the one who is offering him money?

See, I'd say it's the one who kicks the homeless guy. Why he gotta do that?

If you couldn't figure it out, In this scenario EA represents the person offering money, the NFL/Fifa/etc. represents the person who kicks the homeless guy and the homeless guy represents people who buy video games. Taking Madden as an example, EA offered the NFL gobbs of money in exchange for screwing over football fans and offering only one option in Licensed Football games for the next seven years. As someone who makes money on football games it's a great thing for EA, but the NFL really shouldn't have done it as it severely hurts sports gamers choices. If anyone in this situation deserves to be boycotted against it's the NFL.

As for companies they buy out, take Origin for example, the situation is a bit different. The issue of screwing over fans by limiting their options is actually reversed. Like it or not, EA is the biggest game company in the US and getting them to publish your game means mega distribution, mega marketing, and hopefully mega profits. That's why these developers want EA as a publisher. Again, it's the developers that are choosing EA as a publisher and not the other way around. These aren't hostile takeovers, they're business alliances. So given that, EA expects their independant development houses to be managed well and deliver a game on time that will make them money.

EA stays true to their word and promotes the shit out of most-everything they publish. The problem is that spending a lot more money on marketing brings a huge risk along with it. If EA has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars marketing a game that one of their developers has promised would be ready for the holiday season and it either ends up sucking really badly or slips back to the next year, that money is seen as wasted, and the chances of profits shrink. The companies that EA puts under are always the ones that are managed the most poorly.

EA knows business and they know how many copies of a game should be sold based on the amount of marketing money spent and the brand awareness that the IP brings with it. If their games lose money it's usually because the development house doesn't deliver what they say they will when they say they will. It's a huge issue for all software developers, and it's an even bigger issue when the stakes are high. If you look at the history of Stranger's Wraith you'll notice that the reason it didn't do well is because Oddworld promised a PS2 version that they failed to deliver, which caused EA to cut marketing dollars because their potential buyers were instantly trimmed down by 2/3rds. This situation essentially caused Oddworld to buckle, but in the end whose fault is it? If a PS2 version would have been available there wouldn't have been any issues. In all of these "EA ran this company to the ground" issues the story is the same. If a game isn't profitable, there's no reason for a publisher to support it.

So there goes my explanation for the whole "exclusive deals" thing and why EA isn't really all that bad for it. What else you got?

-Wes
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dessgeega · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject:

helicopterp · . Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia

Wait, so he's homeless AND has to buy videogames? This hardly seems fair. I shall lead the public outcry.
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J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

dark steve · . Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110

Nightfire actually has very nice multiplayer if you're into that sort of thing. The levels weren't epic but the weapons and equipment were grand.

Also Burnout, guys.

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

dark steve · . Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110

I'm going to pick it up on your recommendation one of these days. Sounds like my idea of a good time.

dark steve · . Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110

SuperWes · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:50 am Post subject:

The Great Unwashed · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:37 am Post subject:

I'd boycott EA, but they just bought out Mythic, and I have definitive plans to have copious sex with Warhammer Online.

FACT.
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GSL · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:16 am Post subject:

All this talk of kicking homeless guys has got me wanting to put on my homeless-guy-kicking shoes again.

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

Tablesaw · . Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 303 Location: LACAUSA

Dear Wes,

Could you please boycott the crack? This thread seems to be crazy.

Sincerely,
EASpouse.
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dhex · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:55 am Post subject:

huzzah!

i don't know if i have any ea games. i used to back when they did you know good stuff.

boycotts are good in the sense that they tend to be nonviolent coersion, even if it's one of those crispie groups that's mad about disney gay day or something. they're bad in the sense that you need huge legs to be really effective and for the most part they're a threat, like when the aarp starts cleaning a pistol while you're talking to it. so like most things involving democracy it's pretty ugly and overblown but it sure beats someone shooting up gay day or ea or whatever. plus, if you're ever in a rival position, they're a great way to build up your business; you can offer the "natural" alternative or whatever (nature is one of the best rhetorical pointers you can ever insert into an argument, because regardless of what people think it means no one but biologists think of it as anything but a synonym for good.)

ea is like walmart in one sense, except i doubt they get the level of subsidies. what they mean as a symbol is similar to what wal-mart means for budding documentary filmmakers and the like. but i wouldn't be surprised if they're overtly tilling it too.

while i thought the ea spouse blog was interesting, if not particularly damning. it's not like american immigration policy totally leaving thousands of people in a legal limbo from which they have little to no position to bargain, etc; it's a white collar job. that doesn't mean ea isn't fucking stupid in pushing people to the bone with no real considerations about anything more than six months in the future, but nerds = fans = willing to put up with a tremendous amount of shit. but the comparisons to genuinely coersive sweatshops were overblown. you're a citizen, you have the ability to negotiate, access to tort, etc. ea is clearly not a place for people with families who want to spend time with them as well, which is fine for some things (peace corps, hedge funds, etc) but not so hot for people with families who find themselves in a similar situation.

and since they don't have access to a tremendous amount of subsidies, ea will pay for their complete lack of foresight.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

In the spirit of J. Goodwin, here is me flipping EA the bird at E3 this year (we got lost):

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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

SuperWes · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:25 am Post subject:

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

Looks to me like you won that one. E3 effectively ceased to exist shortly thereafter, right?

I don't have any illusion that me not buying new retail copies of EA's games is going to make any difference at all. It's like not working for the Department of Defense anymore. They just got someone else to do my job, but I feel better not being the one doing it.
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Gamertag - FalcomAdol -- Don't Click Here 触手
Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360

helicopterp · . Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia

The toll of preposterous similes on this thread has reached a staggering level.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

Swimmy · . Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Fairfax, VA

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

Swimmy · . Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Fairfax, VA

The problem is that a lot of people like EA's shitty games. Ever hear of Madden? By your standard they may not be living up, but you're hardly representative of "society."

(Personally, I think they just rush out a lot of mediocre games. If they happen to be involved with the creation or publishing of a good game, I've got no problem buying it. That's how they learn what kind of games to put out in the future.)
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OtakupunkX · . Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 730

ryan · . Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 999

It'd be nice if they put the kind of money behind Dark Age of Camelot to turn it around. I tried to go back to it, but its controls are so obtuse when compared to someone like World of Warcraft. Something as simple as picking up loot seemed troublesome, sometimes clicks were registered and some not. And I had played that game for a while after its release and during its beta.

I do wish EA would do what larger studios do and have smaller companies set off for more diverse offerings. I know something like Spore benefits from their funding, but a more concentrated effort would be appreciated. They are certainly acquiring some interesting companies though, like Phenomic.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

It's funny. 50 to 100 years from now when someone is writing about what was happening in videogames in the early/mid 2000-2010 is that Grand Theft Auto was what everyone was playing and that Madden Football was one of the largest selling franchises.

I will personally be wrapped up into this catagorisation with anyone else who ever played games durring this time, including you J. Goodwin. You can't escape history, and it doesn't matter how much individuality or personality you have, you are just part of the mass.

Not that you should quit your boycott, just, you know, make sure you steal a copy of Stranger's Wrath or something.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

J.Goodwin · . Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 297 Location: North Shore, MA

SuperWes · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject:

Uhh, guys. These are videogames. What you buy/enjoy doesn't make you part of a society. Unless of course you're a furry or something (not that there's anything wrong with that!).

You don't buy stuff because it adds to statistics, you buy it because you enjoy it. If you're not basing your buying habits on this, there's something wrong. That's sort of my overall argument here.

EDIT: To continue, I think that's where my urge to post a topic like this comes from. Us, the hardcore gamers, base our purchases on the worst possible things. We buy games based on who published them, how obscure they are, and now, apparently, whether or not the company has been sued by one of its employees.

Does anyone else see something wrong here?

Above J.Goodwin pointed out that companies like EA don't need to market their games because their brand name is enough to sell a product. I say bullshit. It might be true of their sports games, but everything else they publish is sold based on either its quality of its subject matter. People don't buy Medal of Honor because it's EA, they buy it because they like Army games. They don't buy Need for Speed Underground because they see the obnoxious EA Medal on the box, they buy it because they're into import car tuning. The same goes for Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Marvel Nemesis, Def Jam, and most every other big game they produce. These games aren't selling big because they're selling to gamers - they're selling big because they're selling to people. It's really not a bad thing! It's certainly no less noble to buy Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King because you want to live out the movie than it is to buy Deep Labyrinth because it's published by Atlus.

Or am I totally off on this?

-Wes
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dessgeega · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject:

SuperWes · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject:

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

dessgeega · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject:

simplicio · . Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091

I buy all my EA games used, because I disagree with their business/marketing model. So I just stay right out of their demographics. It's not so hard or even worth discussing, really.

We as gamers have it easy with the whole used market when we want to not support something but play the game anyway. I remember when my mom, for the first 10 years of my life, was boycotting grapes due to migrant labor/agricultural/pesticide reasons. It's much harder to find a second hand grape than a second hand copy of SSX3, people.

dhex · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject:

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

And EA would be feeling the heat of its policies if it weren't for Madden. The amount of revenue that game creates is insane. Madden and WoW are in a class by themselves and EA better hope that Madden continues its ESPN/NFL-esque popularity otherwise they'll be in a world of hurt.

And yeah, I tend to blame the NFL in the exclusive licensing situation. Just a piss-poor decision on their part, as opposed to a very savvy move by EA.