The Gamer's Quarter

[Ketch]

Am I the only person who dislikes the 'realistic' scale of modern 3d rpgs, especially real-time combat ones. They just don't pack in the same kind of pacing as the 2d games like Zelda: A Link to the Past etc.

[simplicio]

That environment was at least half the point of SotC, and I actually appreciate them in action RPGs generally. Where I have issues is giant environments with random encounters where you know you can't make it from point A to point B without 20 minutes of combat. Hyrule field at night, for instance, gives you a sense of being alone and overwhelmed by zombies, and you could fight all night and not kill them all, or you could just run. It makes more sense than the static RPG method anyway; why would the world-saving hero want to stop and fight every last beast in the woods?

[helicopterp]

[Six]

[squidlarkin]

Especially those bunnies in the mountains! Considering that any one of them, should it reach civilization, could overwhelm an entire battalion of Shinra guards.

[Scratchmonkey]

I think both examples are pretty dissimilar. Hyrule Field isn't actually that big, when you measure it in, uh, Link-units. In comparison, the world of SotC is much larger.

It's also used differently because there's really nothing that forces itself on the player. No enemies, very little in terms of immediate distractions; just space.

And the space is traversed differently in that in Zelda, you need to earn the horse and in SotC you gain the horse right from the beginning. This is because while you can run Hyrule Field, it's easier to use the horse. SotC, on the other hand, basically requires you to use the horse. I can't imagine attempting to play the game on foot, it would take a truly ridiculous amount of time.

The difference to me is holistic design. Zelda does not require Hyrule Field, it's just a crutch. SotC is designed around the huge amount of open space.

And for the record, I'm not a big fan of the level design in LttP. I like the original Zelda much more.

[DonMarco]

I think we should include Midnight Club series in this discussion. Seriously, it's like driving matchbox cars around shoeboxes.
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Collector of over 1,538 strategy guides. That's weird, right?

[simplicio]

[Harveyjames]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the world who liked Hyrule field. Dude, it goes from day to night! Also, sometimes you meet a running man.

protip: the Stalfos will not appear if you remain on the path!

[J.Goodwin]

[Ketch]

[helicopterp]

I really don't think you can include Mario games when talking about avoiding enemies, at least not the 2d Mario games. Goombas and koopas play just as important a role in level design as pipes and bricks; they don't just exist as something to kill or to kill you.

This thread is pretty interesting for me in that when I play the 3-d Zeldas, I kill the enemies much more often than not. I like that it isn't necessary. Battles for experience in rpg's feel too forced. I kill the enemies in Zelda because swinging the sword is fun, not because link has to, or because it will make me better. It's just fun.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

[Lestrade]

[Harveyjames]

Yeah.

I think Aonuma had something to say about the purpose of the non-boss enemies on Zelda- he talked about how when he worked on Link to the Past, he found he spend a lot of time just chopping down bushes. I think everyone who plays that game does, in fact. So he always includes plenty of stuff to chop down for the heck of it, as he sees this as the key to Zelda's charm (rather than just a by-product of play). The enemies in his games aren't much more than an extension of that. Of course, in the NES days they were there to make the game hard. Both approaches are ok. I like hitting the little rat dudes with the hammer!

The usual critcisms aside, I think Wind Waker is the ultimate refinement of Aonuma's(mis?)interpertation of Zelda. In Wind Waker, just spin-attacking a load of flowers is fun in itself. And the enemies are so cool looking. It's like candy that you stab.

[helicopterp]

I like fucking with those eye of truth stones. And I like stabbing candy.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

[Nana Komatsu]

I have no utter admiration for Hyrule Field but I did love the sailing in Wind Waker (until I got sick of it towards the end). After I first got the boat, I would just go and sail around for hours at a time in that game.

[dessgeega]

i felt like wind waker's ocean was hyrule field done right. in retrospect they probably should have let link use the spyglass at least while sailing, but at the beginning there's this palpable sense of discovery. then you find out that each square of the grid contains one fish and one island and one sunken treasure. i didn't discover the giant squids until the end, though, and they were quite a discovery!
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[J.Goodwin]

[Harveyjames]

[Shapermc]

So, are we talking about Zelda now, or these types of locations?

I think that there are quite a few games that do it right. Megaman Legends does it very well, Steambot Chronicles does at times, The Legend of River King: A Wonderful Jouney gets this aspect right (if not a bit boring the rest of the time), and even most recently Dead Rising.

I know I am missing some here though (not including ones previously listed).
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[Nana Komatsu]

I don't think this has to be limited to just Zelda games, Wind Waker was the first thing that came to mind when I thought about it.

I wish more games would incorporate large expansive areas with things to explore. I realize the technical limitations of this sort of thing, but personally I would enjoy more efforts in this area.

I remember the last area of Dungeon Siege is this gigantic desert that you cross trying to find this hidden dungeon, with only the sound of the wind to help guide you. It wasn't as great implemented as it sounds on paper, but I enjoyed it quite a bit for what it was.

[Scratchmonkey]

The ocean in Wind Waker was a wonderful idea that had shit-poor implementation.

Forcing you in a single direction to start, not allowing you to use other items while using the sail and having a regimented single-island-to-a-square design made what could have been the Zelda version of Sid Meier's Pirates! an exercise in drudgery.

[kirkjerk]

This ties in a bit with a pet issue of mine, how "specially designed for this adventure" games feel, and those that are in denial about it.

Metroid Prime is kind of the worst offender... a giant lovely world, but so carefully arranged so that, say, you can SEE where you can't get to 'til you get the double jump, or a special kind of missile, or whatever that it feels really contrived.

With Zelda, th dungeons are puzzley in that same way, though Hyrule overworld, much less so. It largely feels like it could be a place.

(This ties in, though, with the way both Metroid and Zelda tend to have to "reset" the main character to weak. As opposed to Mario, which more open about it's puzzle-ish world, but have little item accumlulation/powerup)

GTA series is still my favorite balance of a real big place that just happens to have your story going on it.

[J.Goodwin]

[Ketch]

[J.Goodwin]

[Ketch]

[kirkjerk]

[SuperWes]

[J.Goodwin]

[kirkjerk]

[SuperWes]

[kirkjerk]

[simplicio]

[Dracko]

Emotional manipulation is a trite affair anyway.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

[Ketch]

[Swimmy]

[dessgeega]

everyone just play riven.
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[kirkjerk]

[helicopterp]

Shrinking in terms of how alien it is to her--this I can see. But the scope of her environment's comprehensibility has remained the same largely because of the 3D iterations' sometimes-maligned avoidance of long cutscenes and dialogue in the few short ones that occur. I have loved in Prime and Echoes (slightly less so in echoes) the highly first person (due to the dearth of 3rd person cutscenes), player actuated discovery of utter ruin. Every new area Samus--this is much more true in Prime than Echoes--discovers has either been destroyed along with its inhabitants or deserted and left to rot. The narrative unfolds doubly, then: Samus acts out her own lonely story while simultaneously reconstructing the history of this planet, which while many of its features may have been designed for her in the past, in its present dilapidation must bear little resemblence to the home she once knew. I can't give the game enough credit for placing the responsibility of this dual narrative thread squarely and with no exception in the hands of the player. For me it was a real revolution in gaming.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

[Harveyjames]

Samus: Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron

I wonder what John Woo sees in the story of Metroid to want to make a film out of it. I hope it's the same as what I see.