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Lestrade
Bug Fister
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Damn you, Half-Life 2, for setting the bar so high |
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While playing the lamentable Dirge of Cerberus for a few hours* I was constantly and frequently reminded of our discussion regarding gaming narratives after Half-Life 2. Dirge has been the most immediate example of a game that, post-HL2, is nearly unbearable.
Nevermind the bland gameplay, level design, etc. Whereas many reviews complained of the constant loading in the Xbox port of HL2, Dirge commits a similar sin: nearly every minute, it seems, the game loads a cutscene.
Don't get me wrong: I rather like the beautiful CG cinemas, simply for their visual splendour, but the near-constant barrage of in-game cutscenes is maddening. Two minutes of shooting leads to third seconds of cutscenes which leads to two minutes of shooting which in turn leads to another minute of cutscenes—repeat ad nauseum.
If this was like Half-Life 2, there would be no transition, no differentiation. Instead of loading—loading—the awkwardly-paced cutscene of Vincent chatting with a vengeful nine-year-old, why can't the game just have the kid start talking when you're in earshot?
Because it sucks, that's why.
Anyway, you get my drift. Feel free to discuss other games that Half-Life 2 has ruined for you.
*Don't worry, no money has gone to Square-Enix for the joy of playing this game. |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I don't think ruined is the appropriate verb there.
Exposed might be a better one.
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Lestrade
Bug Fister
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
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Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| F U, Captain Symantics! |
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J.Goodwin
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
Location: North Shore, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | I don't think ruined is the appropriate verb there.
Exposed might be a better one. |
Mm Hm. I found myself getting increasingly annoyed by cutscenes well before playing HL2. I believe that a Bungie employee recently reported that some huge percentage of players skipped every cutscene in a game when given the opportunity, based on their research.
Also, there are some uncutscenes in HL2 that I find quite annoying. The dog sequence with Alyx is one of them. It starts out good, you have this kind of little charming story about dog, and the Alyx interactions with the dog, and that's all good, then you have a game of catch to get used to grabbing things, but it all takes too damn long. In fact, that entire sequence leading up to the dog sequence is too long and slow paced. There are these times that probably don't actually last very long, but seem eternally long when playing where you're told to go mess around with some of the stuff in the room, and then eventually some character nonchalantly strolls in to have a conversation with someone else.
Also, frequently characters block doors while engaging in their monologues.
That is not the definition of fun to me, even though it clearly represents an intentional design choice.
And as a general comment, I don't like it when NPCs are so slow and deliberate about everything. This is a major annoyance that I also have about Oblivion. The NPC AI is designed so that if you go too far away from someone, they just stop, but the NPC walks at a terribly slow speed to start, especially compared with the standard speed for the player controlled character.
It plays like a snail herding simulator.
If they're going to stop when they get a certain distance from you anyway, why not make them fast in the first place? Have them act as if there is some urgency here.
My other huge annoyance with HL2 Xbox is that there is a massive load screen after you have watched the non-skippable warning screens and developer animations and press the start button. After this load screen, you get a menu and wonder what the fuck that was all about (this may have been the initial content cacheing, not sure).
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Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360
Last edited by J.Goodwin on Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I honestly don't find the downtime that annoying in Half-Life 2. If it was a constant barrage of action, it would start to feel stale pretty fast.
One of the peculiar things with that franchise is I can't select a chapter to choose from and play it from there. It doesn't feel dull, but it somehow loses my interest. It's imperative that I play through the game from beginning to end, though not necessarily in a single sitting.
How recent was this Bungie statement? I found myself skipping through Halo 2's cutscenes rapidly. The story is not all that well taught, although the Hollywood Summer blockbuster epic feel is constantly present. Hopefully that will mean Halo 3 will try dropping those (and if the Marathon series is any guide, and I hope it is, it will start tossing bizarre pomo hypertext at us).
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J.Goodwin
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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Location: North Shore, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | I honestly don't find the downtime that annoying in Half-Life 2. If it was a constant barrage of action, it would start to feel stale pretty fast.
One of the peculiar things with that franchise is I can't select a chapter to choose from and play it from there. It doesn't feel dull, but it somehow loses my interest. It's imperative that I play through the game from beginning to end, though not necessarily in a single sitting.
How recent was this Bungie statement? I found myself skipping through Halo 2's cutscenes rapidly. The story is not all that well taught, although the Hollywood Summer blockbuster epic feel is constantly present. Hopefully that will mean Halo 3 will try dropping those (and if the Marathon series is any guide, and I hope it is, it will start tossing bizarre pomo hypertext at us). |
But I find that the puzzle areas give me downtime, and I don't feel like I'm being forced to waste time in them, it's a challenge to deal with, rather than a very limited interaction cutscene.
I actually particularly like how Call of Duty 2 handled that. Not only could you jump back into any battle, but you could also individually select the difficulty if you were having problems, so your forward motion wasn't completely stopped, generally speaking.
I looked around online for it, and I'm not seeing it. I was looking around for the elf hit points reference too, and realized it was in a Major Nelson podcast where he interviews the Forza 2 guys (a developer and Che). I now have the suspicion that it may have been in another podcast interview, so digging it up could be a challenge. And it may not have even been Bungie.
Non-skippable cutscenes are the modern equivalent of old school RPGs where you had to wait for the text to slowly appear letter by letter on the screen, and there was no way to speed it up or immediately display the text and advance to the next page of text.
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dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
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Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: |
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hl2 basically ruined voice acting for me. and not just because louis gosset jr. is awesome.
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Damn you, Half-Life 2, for setting the bar so high |
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| Lestrade wrote: | Feel free to discuss other games that Half-Life 2 has ruined for you.
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Killzone, but not because of the cut-scenes.
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simplicio
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Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 1091
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: |
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J.Goodwin, I mean this in a totally respectful manner, but have you considered that maybe the problem is you? I really like that some games like HL2 and Oblivion use NPC/interactive methods of altering the pace and rehumanizing the situation. When the extent of your character's actions is largely limited to killing as many things as possible, isn't a situation where you have to sit around and listen to characters talking or walk at a normal pace ("slowly") beside one valuable as an added dimension to the player's experience? Lord knows there are plenty of games available where you can skip all the cutscenes and just run & gun the whole way through without a bit of interaction or storyline or anything.
It may just be that the latter type's what you're looking for in games. Which is fine! |
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J.Goodwin
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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Location: North Shore, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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It's entirely possible. But the controls in FP games aren't designed for going slow.
Personally, when I play FPS games, I tend to be extremely strategic and take my time when I'm actually in the action areas. I like to explore everything. I don't like being caged in, which is how I feel when I'm locked in a tiny virtual room having to wait for people who aren't real to do whatever it is that they are programmed to do.
In real life, I have to work hard to ensure that people get the chance to respond or talk when I'm around them (you may have noticed that I pretty much don't even bother trying that online). I can type faster than I can talk, and I can talk pretty fast.
When I'm playing a game, I want to feel like I'm playing the game. I'm not terribly interested in having an experience imposed on me. If I feel emotions when playing a game (and I do, I've cried while playing games...) then I want that to feel genuine based on what's going on around me in the game. I thought that Doom3 was great about this (although I understand that a lot of people apparently didn't like that game). Yes, it used gimmicks for some of it's impact, but I responded to the gimmicks in a real way, just as I might in a haunted house. For me, that was a real and organic experience, and although there was a lot of "go here, get this, go back over here" to it, I didn't feel herded.
I guess that for good or bad, I definitely get that angsty "rat in a cage" feeling in some games. Maybe it's more typical in my age group or geographic location or whatever. I don't play an FPS to zone out (unless it's Doom or Doom2, which I know like the back of my own hand, and playing them is more of a Zen experience). I have real life opportunities to zone out. I can go down to the beach, or up into the mountains, or just drive around aimlessly. I can walk across the street into the forest or swamp and "be at one with the universe."
In other words, I'm not looking for a human situation in a game. "Human situations" seem to be just a code word for caging you up and imposing tedium in games, whereas in the real world, a human situation is about opening things up and giving you new ideas and opportunities.
Now, what I do like the idea of is what I understand they did in HL2E1, where you have single player co-op. That kind of brings something interesting to the relationship between the gamer and the computer that seems to me to be valuable. Watching two characters slowly walk around and talk to each other feels extremely ... fake. Many of these characters I'm never going to see again. They say their two or three lines of dialogue, and exit stage left. Their function in the game is not appreciably different from a locked door, except that with the door, you can find the key and open it. In the case of these cutscenes, the characters just tick down their little timer lock and you have no choice but to wait for it.
Oblivion does it both well and poorly. For example, I think that the Mazoga quest is pretty good. You have a character there that's more than just a foil for someone else. They have their own objective, and you can help them reach it or not. After you finish the first quest, you have the ability to go back and engage in future quests with the same character.
The same goes for the long-lost brothers. There's a continuing relationship with the characters and an ongoing storyline.
The bad example is where you have to defend a farm from an attack by goblins. You have to very slowly walk down this road to get to the farm where you then slaughter the incoming enemies. In that mission, I felt caged in by the walking speed of the NPCs. Then when you succeed, it's collect your reward time and you never think about them again, which is actually, IMHO, diametrically opposed to the way that Oblivion works overall. Generally you get the feeling that even the random characters in the street have a purpose, and a plot of their own. If you follow random people around, you find that they have their own homes, their own mealtimes, their own routines. Maybe they go to church, maybe they go to work, maybe they hang out in the palace gardens around midnight. But you're not forced to sit there while they do these things. Their existence doesn't feel like it's predicated on your existence, and you are not constrained by their activities.
Do you think I would be more interested in HL2's "plot" and tolerant of the standing still parts if I had played HL first?
It's possible that I'm missing some key element that makes it interesting. My suspicion is that most of these characters are the equivalent of that tutorial screen that you get when you're loading up a mission in Ninety Nine Nights. I'm just waiting, and they're presenting some sort of "information," but it's nothing that I couldn't have figured out on my own.
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Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Is Ninety Nine Nights any good, compared to its peers?
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dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
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Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you think I would be more interested in HL2's "plot" and tolerant of the standing still parts if I had played HL first? |
no. at least, probably not.
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J.Goodwin
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
Location: North Shore, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | Is Ninety Nine Nights any good, compared to its peers? |
I haven't played Dynasty Warriors. It looks pretty, and there is a lot of hacking and slashing. Each character seems to have their own unique zones (along with some common ones), and typically the objectives are different There are achievements to unlock based on clearing each character's questline, achieving all A or S scores (kind of like NiGHTS, except that the scoring system isn't so transparent...it seems to involve a combination of speed, killing most of the enemies on a map, and using a blue orb move at least once to kill a pretty decent number of enemies (once you've levelled up a bit, getting an A score is pretty easy). Just speed running a map isn't going to get an A score), and levelling all the characters up to the ninth level (max).
This is the first game that I've gotten from Gamefly, and so far I'm tempted to buy it...I can see that after you've gotten all A scores, unlocked all the artwork and character profiles, and levelled up all the characters there may not be anything left to bring you back though. But I think that once I do that I'll probably have gotten a good 30 or 40 hours out of it.
The voice acting is questionable. I would have preferred that they left the original Japanese intact and just subtitled it. It's not god awful, but it's pretty bad. I think it's going to be interesting to see what Ubi has done with Enchanted Arms (re the voice overs). It's getting iffy scores from OXBM, but I'm still going to play it.
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | Is Ninety Nine Nights any good, compared to its peers? |
After playing the demo twice I don't want the game in the slightest. Well, I would probably pick it up for $10 or so and play it when I didn't feel like thinking. It is beyond monotonous and all the enemies feel the same and the NPCs are useless. I left this one guy to fight a single goblin once... after five minutes and many exchanges of swords I just killed the goblin in one slice.
Anyways, I haven't played any of its peers, sorry. The demo is up on Live Arcade, so just give it a try if you know anyone with a 360.
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"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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J.Goodwin
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
Location: North Shore, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | Dracko wrote: | | Is Ninety Nine Nights any good, compared to its peers? |
After playing the demo twice I don't want the game in the slightest. Well, I would probably pick it up for $10 or so and play it when I didn't feel like thinking. It is beyond monotonous and all the enemies feel the same and the NPCs are useless. I left this one guy to fight a single goblin once... after five minutes and many exchanges of swords I just killed the goblin in one slice.
Anyways, I haven't played any of its peers, sorry. The demo is up on Live Arcade, so just give it a try if you know anyone with a 360. |
To be fair, the demo is not very representative of the game in general, based on my experience. It's not as unrepresentative as the Chromehounds demo, but it's close.
You don't get to level up, and you don't have different weapons available, or upgrade tokens, which make your NPCs significantly more hardy and dangerous. You also don't see the other stages, which are a lot more visually interesting and diverse (the swamp level is particularly interesting, IMHO).
The NPCs seem to also factor into your score, based on their survival %. I think they're there really more as part of the stage (visually, so that you get these huge battle sequences in some of the later stages). However, the archers do help out a lot, if you deploy them correctly. Just don't let them get into an actual close up fight. From a good distance, they'll pretty efficiently slaughter enemies.
I find that the best tactic is to get out ahead of the archers (drop them fifty meters or so ahead of the upcoming pack of enemies), then move kind of side to side to kill off the enemy hordes. Charging straight in and just hacking away is a low ranking strategy, typically.
They should have used the defence of the ice gates stage or the stage where you assault the kind of high desert fortress instead, and given you the opportunity to play as some of the characters that actually play in materially different ways, instead of just Inphyy and Aspharr. Instead they gave you the second mission from the game, which is pretty bland, features no character development, and which you only play as the two characters that are, aside from their orb attacks, essentially the same, aside from their motivations as individual characters (which you don't get to see in the demo).
At ten bucks or even twenty, it's a gimme. At fifty it's a rental or wait.
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Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Lestrade
Bug Fister
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quit jackin' the thread, you bastards. We're here to talk about cutscenes an' shit! |
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OtakupunkX
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 730
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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I have yet to play Half-Life 2. I'm hoping to get the Xbox version soon since my PC would not be able to run it well, but seeing as how I'm about to go buy Rule of Rose, Contact, and a DS Lite (plus I just outfitted my room with Surround Sound  ) within the next month I don't see how I'll obtain the game unless it falls from of the sky. |
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J.Goodwin
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
Location: North Shore, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| OtakupunkX wrote: | | I have yet to play Half-Life 2. I'm hoping to get the Xbox version soon since my PC would not be able to run it well, but seeing as how I'm about to go buy Rule of Rose, Contact, and a DS Lite (plus I just outfitted my room with Surround Sound :shock: ) within the next month I don't see how I'll obtain the game unless it falls from of the sky. |
If you can wait a week or two, I'll send you my copy after I finish going through it. Pretty sure it wouldn't have much in the way of trade value, particularly with the 360 version coming down the pipeline.
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Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Chicken Little: "The sky's falling, the sky's falling!"
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| OtakupunkX wrote: | | but seeing as how I'm about to go buy Rule of Rose, Contact, and a DS Lite (plus I just outfitted my room with Surround Sound ) within the next month I don't see how I'll obtain the game unless it falls from of the sky. |
You just reminded me exactly how much I'm going to be spending on games this month. I guess I thought that both Rule of Rose and Contact were coming out later in the year. I pre-ordered the Phoenix Wright re-issue a few days ago, Contact (thanks to your heads up) and Arrested Development - Season 3 today, and have already mentally committed money to Okami. This is a lot of money for me, folks! I guess I should be thankful that after Rule of Rose, Super Paper Mario, and Yoshi's Island 2 I do not plan to spend any money on games. Also, I no longer work at my moderately waged bakery position, but sit pretty close to minumum wage at the library now. Sometimes I hate loving games.
And J. Goodwin, I don't mean this as praise or criticism (or more accurately, it's probably a little of both), but as a curious observation: You are focused on being really good at playing games in a way that I could never be. I find myself completely unable to respond to most of what you post here. It's like we're skew lines.
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J.Goodwin
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
Location: North Shore, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| helicopterp wrote: | | And J. Goodwin, I don't mean this as praise or criticism (or more accurately, it's probably a little of both), but as a curious observation: You are focused on being really good at playing games in a way that I could never be. I find myself completely unable to respond to most of what you post here. It's like we're skew lines. |
Well, I have the mixed fortune of a job that's pretty stop and start, and generally confined to a working day, with a relatively large amount of self-directed work that permits me to look at message boards or whatever periodically, and with good pay.
That is, until tax season, then it takes over my entire life for three months.
What's interesting is that I don't consider myself a hardcore gamer at all. I cheap out on a lot of things, I have far more respect for older games than most of what occured in between Dreamcast and 360. There were a couple bright spots, but in console gaming, that is what I consider a very dark time, when it should have been the equivalent of the 16-bit era (which I also don't have a lot of respect for...but seems to have a lot of boosters..and I don't count the PCE in that era...it came too early for the Megadrive / SuperFamicom battle in Japan, even though it practically launched day and date with the Genesis in the US).
I also have a mind that seems to be unnecessarily devoted to trivia and ... discussion. Not in a rational way at all though. Rational doesn't really describe my thinking process very well.
And I Never Ever Sleep!
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Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360 |
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Persona-sama
Weltbeherrschen Mangaka
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 709
Location: acrylic polymer dismutation
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Man, HL2 has killed any game where there are NPCs who don't look at me.
Actually, I've never played HL2 but just the fact that characters track you with their eyes was something I'd always ALWAYS wanted in games. Especially in those JRPGs where they nod their heads and talk like they're Power Rangers and just barely glance in your general direction. Fucking mocap.
Shit, MGS does that too, now that I think about it. Fucking mocap.
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OtakupunkX
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| helicopterp wrote: | | Sometimes I hate loving games. |
No joke. I'm going to have to go pre-order Phoenix Wright and Super Paper Mario now too. Damn my just-above-minimum-wage pizza job (although I guess it's pretty good considering I'm still in high school) and expensive gas prices (although they seem to be coming down around the Houston area, can't speak for the rest of the U.S.).
| J.Goodwin wrote: | | If you can wait a week or two, I'll send you my copy after I finish going through it. |
I'll probably take you up on that offer; PM me when you're done with it. |
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Lestrade
Bug Fister
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Persona-sama wrote: | | Man, HL2 has killed any game where there are NPCs who don't look at me. |
Yes! Player-focused interaction and realistic NPCs go a long way in dispelling the perceived need for giant cutscenes. Holy crap, Hollywood might not be the answer!?
Man, don't you wish there was a Silent Hill game that followed HL2's lead? I know that in Silent Hill 2 and 4, secondary characters track you, but HL2 really sets the bar as far as allowing you have real feelings towards seemingly inconsequential characters (whether they are positive or negative).
Silent Hill 4's best moments were (obviously) in the apartment. (I think it helped that these moments were first-person, too.) When ghosts start coming out of the walls, it's genuinely terrifying because it's not in a cutscene, but from your own point of view. It was happening in real time; you could go closer to inspect what was happening, or run away like a little girl into the hole in the wall. That sense of immediacy was there, just as in HL2.
I wonder, though: could these real-time interactions be just as effective in third-person? I suppose it would depend on the camera angle, wouldn't it? Resident Evil 4 might be a better fit for this sort of thing, since the over-the-shoulder camera allows you to see other parties in a detailed way, similar to first-person. Most RPGs and games such as Silent Hill employ a farther, often top-down viewpoint that makes detailed shots of NPCs difficult, if not practically impossible.
More ponderings... what do you think? |
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| helicopterp wrote: | | You just reminded me exactly how much I'm going to be spending on games this month. Rule of Rose, Contact, Okami, Super Paper Mario, and Yoshi's Island 2 |
Man, there is some really good stuff still coming out this year!
I am trying to think if there is anything coming out for the 360 for the rest of the year, and nothing is coming to mind. I know some stuff is coming out next year that looks good though.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
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dhex
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
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I wonder, though: could these real-time interactions be just as effective in third-person? |
i find the first person angle to be the most engaging, but i recognize that it can be problematic in its own right and not everybody digs on it (for taste reasons, motion sickness, etc)
call of cthulhu i think establishes the first person angle as a more than viable and definitely creepy angle for horror/survival type stuff. fear did this very well in parts too; namely the office segment and, to a lesser degree, the end. when you spin around because you heard a noise and unload a clip into a laptop on a desk out of fear or because you thought you saw something move, that's good stuff.
also: ravenholm.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Lestrade wrote: | | Silent Hill 4's best moments were (obviously) in the apartment. (I think it helped that these moments were first-person, too.) When ghosts start coming out of the walls, it's genuinely terrifying because it's not in a cutscene, but from your own point of view. It was happening in real time; you could go closer to inspect what was happening, or run away like a little girl into the hole in the wall. That sense of immediacy was there, just as in HL2. |
Hmm, I disagree!
First Person perspective is probably the most difficult perspective to control, so it will have the largest amount of alienation from its audience. Also, SH4 had pretty bad controls in first person.
It is much more difficult to make a HL2 caliber game, making one that is also scary and controlled in first person is asking too much. Silent Hill’s controls are already pretty clunky, take that and put it in first person and you have some issues. Also, most weapons in SH are melee weapons, which doesn’t really work with first person as well (takes up a lot of the screen, has highly irregular movements, and usually has weird collision effects).
So, let’s take a look at Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the earth. It is the only FP game that I can think of that is a horror game and not heavily reliant on weapons (or combat really). When it gets things right, it really gets them right. When it even slightly misses the mark it feels like it falls even further because of how jarring the perspective of first person is. When it really gets things wrong you just want to break the disc because it is game breaking (I ended up never finishing the game because of some really bad shit about half way though).
Basically, HL2’s bar is too high. The voyeuristic sections of SH4 are good, and some of the best parts, but only because you either a) look/move at it, or b) don’t. You hardly interact with things and when you do it is really poorly implemented. The ability to go to the window and stare out of it for as long as you want, tapping at it to try to get attention is damn good. Looking through the hole in the wall to see how your neighbor is doing and if she is safe is also very good. Combat would have been terrible. It is good because it lets you go into the head of the avatar you have been controlling, not because you are that avatar.
I don’t know if I am on track any more. Basically, SH4 can’t even do in game cut-scenes in third person well yet, I don’t want to see it attempt them in first.
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | First Person perspective is probably the most difficult perspective to control, so it will have the largest amount of alienation from its audience. Also, SH4 had pretty bad controls in first person. |
Hmm. This if off-topic, but I think you're wrong here. FPS controls do require more learning to get used to them, but after you figure them out it becomes second nature and because of the visuals, the perspective is the most immersive. You don't so much control Gordon Freeman grabbing a can and throwing it in the garbage can, you become Gordon Freeman grabbing a can and throwing it in the garbage can.
That's not to say being in first person, or even that being immersive in and of itself is better than the alternative, but there is a distinct difference in how separated from the game you feel in each perspective.
Besides, I'd rather fight with first person controls than fight with Silent Hill controls any day of the week...
-Wes
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J.Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Blitz the League (not really interested in football, but might rent it to check it out)
Bomberman Act Zero (renting, I want to play it, but don't want to encourage Hudson to keep raping old series instead of paying tribute to them, I'll definitely buy Tengai Makyo Ziria if it comes out here)
Cabela's African Safari (not interested)
Cabella's Alaskan Adventure (Yes, the storied Hunting Series comes to 360, but I'm not interested)
Call of Duty 3 (that's a buy)
Cars (not interested)
College Hoops 2K7 (not interested)
Crackdown (probably a buy, unless it turns out really badly)
Dead or Alive Extreme 2 (I'm a pervert, so if this one makes a holiday date, I'm on it)
Enchanted Arms (renting)
Eragon (apparently a fantasy movie coming out this winter based on the novels...interesting potential, but could be really bad since it's a movie license, basically)
F.E.A.R. (have the demo disc and haven't checked it out yet, probably at least a rental)
FIFA 2007 (EA, boycotting)
Forza Motorsport 2 (probably a buy)
Fuzion Frenzy 2 (I never played the original, but it has a good reputation, and Hudson's doing this one, so it may be a more mature version of Mario Party...might be worth checking out)
Gears of War (a buy)
Godfather (EA, boycotting)
History Channel: Civil War (Sounds interesting, but I don't know that it will make it out this year)
Import Tuner Challenge (Ubi Soft racing game...wtf?)
Just Cause (looks interesting, see if Eidos has one more in them)
Lego Star Wars II (renting, might buy)
Madden 07 (EA, boycotting)
Marvel Ultimate Alliance (interested, but it's not looking good at the moment)
NBA 2K7 (not interested)
NBA Live 07 (EA, boycotting)
Need for Speed Carbon (EA, boycotting)
NHL 07 (EA, boycotting)
NHL 2K7 (I have had a bad history with hockey games, so I'm probably going to avoid it)
Open Season (Not interested)
Phantasy Star Universe (that's a buy)
Pimp My Ride (not interested)
Rainbow Six Vegas (that's a buy)
Rayman 4 (at least a rental, loved Rayman 2)
Saint's Row (renting)
Samurai Warriors 2 (probably renting)
Sonic the Hedgehog (a rental, SEGA is too dangerous these days to buy outright)
Splinter Cell Double Agent (that's a buy)
Star Trek Legacy (?)
Superman Returns (EA, boycotting)
Test Drive Unlimited (intended to buy this, will rent first)
Tiger Woods 07 (EA, boycotting)
Timeshift (the demo was really bad, but I hear the developer made a lot of changes after ATARI disowned it, so I'll check it out)
Tony Hawk's Project 8 (I liked Tony Hawk on DC, but the versions since then are lacking something, will probably rent)
Viva Pinata (at least a rental, just to see what it's all about)
World Series of Poker (just downloaded Texas Hold'em on live, and that will definitely sate the minimal interest I have in poker)
WWE Smackdown vs Raw 2007 (not interested)
XBLA Unplugged (Not buying, already have all these games)
So there are games there that I'm interested in, and there are some that aren't on that list that I think are coming out this year, but I can't confirm. One that should be on the list is Winning Eleven 10/Pro Evolution Soccer 6 (which is a buy for me, whenever it comes out).
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J.Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: |
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I found Ravenholm to be less scary than Doom3 or Condemned. Condemned in particular really took it to the next level, IMHO. It basically didn't resort to scary tricks, it was just genuinely scary and tension filled. Particularly once you reached the department store...creepy.
I want to play F.E.A.R.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | Hmm. This if off-topic, but I think you're wrong here. FPS controls do require more learning to get used to them, but after you figure them out it becomes second nature and because of the visuals, the perspective is the most immersive. You don't so much control Gordon Freeman grabbing a can and throwing it in the garbage can, you become Gordon Freeman grabbing a can and throwing it in the garbage can. |
I will argue that if they are done right they become second nature to an extent. Every time you change weapons as Gordon you have to hit the Dpad on the controller and it takes you out of the element. Every time you have to do precise movement and jumping you have to stare at your lack of feet on the ground. There is potential still for more breaking elements that will take you out of being the avatar than in a third person game.
Now, when you "become" Gordon it doesn't allow for a story about Gordon as much as a story about "you." So, no matter how hard the creators try you are always going to feel like that person, not emphasis with them, but truely experience it. So if you can't be convinced your level of empathy drops exponentially.
You understand that you are talking for yourself right? Most FPS games make me feel numb about the avatar I am controlling. It is the difference between being the actor in a play/movie and watching one. You can't have both at the same time.
Any I never have a problem with SH controls: they accomplish what they set out to. I don't prefer one or the other.
ANYWAYS, you haven't even finished HL2, so what good is your point?
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| J.Goodwin wrote: | F.E.A.R.
Gears of War
Phantasy Star Universe
Sonic the Hedgehog |
You forgot Half-Life 2.
Anyways, those are the ones that interest me, but none of them are "OMG AMAZING" games that I probably could live without.
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Lackey
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You understand that you are talking for yourself right? |
Who isn't!
| Quote: | | Now, when you "become" Gordon it doesn't allow for a story about Gordon as much as a story about "you." So, no matter how hard the creators try you are always going to feel like that person, not emphasis with them, but truely experience it. So if you can't be convinced your level of empathy drops exponentially. |
Yes, but this is logical because it doesn't ignore the necessary fact of a player on the other end of the controller. I think it's wise that they made Gordon a mostly blank slate character since it renders empathy with him unnecessary. Rather than requiring the player to empathize with the protagonist who they just happen to be controlling they project their own emotions in first person.
You know, I empathize with the other characters in HL2 as I would with other people involved in the same crises as me. So I don't find myself empathizing less, it's just placed differently.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Lackey wrote: | | You know, I empathize with the other characters in HL2 as I would with other people involved in the same crises as me. So I don't find myself empathizing less, it's just placed differently. |
Right!
It all boils down to me saying: There is no "perfect perspective" for games. So while you may prefer one over the other, it is not necessarily the best way to get across what the creator wants.
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J.Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | J.Goodwin wrote: | F.E.A.R.
Gears of War
Phantasy Star Universe
Sonic the Hedgehog |
You forgot Half-Life 2.
Anyways, those are the ones that interest me, but none of them are "OMG AMAZING" games that I probably could live without. |
I didn't see an actual date for the HL2 pack. I've been assuming that it will arrive early next year. I guess it depends on whether you think HL2:E2 will be out this year or not.
It's also EA published, so I'll be buying it used. Would be nice to give Valve some money, but they got in bed with Satan on their own. | Shapermc wrote: | I will argue that if they are done right they become second nature to an extent. Every time you change weapons as Gordon you have to hit the Dpad on the controller and it takes you out of the element. Every time you have to do precise movement and jumping you have to stare at your lack of feet on the ground. There is potential still for more breaking elements that will take you out of being the avatar than in a third person game.
Now, when you "become" Gordon it doesn't allow for a story about Gordon as much as a story about "you." So, no matter how hard the creators try you are always going to feel like that person, not emphasis with them, but truely experience it. So if you can't be convinced your level of empathy drops exponentially. |
Well, again I have to point to Condemned. Unlike Gordon, Ethan has feet, and a voice, and interacts with people and objects directly instead of just with a gun of one sort of another (or the invisible hand). I'd put the Ethan/Rosa collab up against Gordon/Alyx too, at least as far as it goes in HL2 (not E1, which I haven't played, but I understand to be more involved). Even if Rosa is pretty butch, and probably not interested in guys.
The story in Condemned doesn't make a whole lot of sense the first time through though. Once you get to the end, and you've unlocked all the reports, it all fits together, but you're basically lost up to that point.
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Playing - Ninety-Nine Nights - Xbox 360
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OtakupunkX
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| J.Goodwin wrote: | | It's also EA published, so I'll be buying it used. Would be nice to give Valve some money, but they've gotten in bed with Satan. |
EA & Steam! Ultimate Team-Up! |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| J.Goodwin wrote: | Well, again I have to point to Condemned. Unlike Gordon, Ethan has feet, and a voice, and interacts with people and objects directly instead of just with a gun of one sort of another (or the invisible hand). I'd put the Ethan/Rosa collab up against Gordon/Alyx too, at least as far as it goes in HL2 (not E1, which I haven't played, but I understand to be more involved). Even if Rosa is pretty butch, and probably not interested in guys.
The story in Condemned doesn't make a whole lot of sense the first time through though. Once you get to the end, and you've unlocked all the reports, it all fits together, but you're basically lost up to that point. |
Unfortunately, it's not a story worth telling, rife with plot holes, and the characters, and collab, are dull. Besides, I don't see how a mute Gordon is a bad thing. I'd rather get my story exposition and my gameplay directly, rather than through long-winded dialogue with questionnable voice-acting. The interactivity with objects in Condemned is stiff as well.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: |
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I really liked what the begining set up as far as story, but then it turned into a crappy looking, poorly excecting, terribly bland action game. The demo from Condemned informed me to not buy the game.
Sorry!
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J.Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well, you're entitled to your opinions.
IMHO, it's one of the sleepers on the 360, along with Tomb Raider: Legend and Ridge Racer 6. And I think all those are priced in the low tier now.
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | Now, when you "become" Gordon it doesn't allow for a story about Gordon as much as a story about "you." So, no matter how hard the creators try you are always going to feel like that person, not emphasis with them, but truely experience it. So if you can't be convinced your level of empathy drops exponentially.
You understand that you are talking for yourself right? Most FPS games make me feel numb about the avatar I am controlling. It is the difference between being the actor in a play/movie and watching one. You can't have both at the same time.
ANYWAYS, you haven't even finished HL2, so what good is your point? |
Lots of stuff to cover here!
First off, here is a definition of empathy - "the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another."
So if you're becoming Gordon Freeman instead of watching Gordan doesn't that make it easier for you to experience what he's experiencing? When I play Half Life, Gordon Freeman doesn't look like the Goatee'd guy on the box art, he looks like me. I am Gordon Freeman and people are reacting to my actions. That's why it's so much more immersive.
I'll admit that this makes you feel numb to the avatar, but again, that's sort of the point. When you're in James' apartment you're doing just that - walking around James' apartment. You're not James walking around his apartment, you're yourself. James' existance doesn't matter any more. When you're exploring the world inside of the walls you are controlling James, but in the Apartment you are him, or rather, you're exploring his aparment as yourself. That's how it feels anyway, and that's so important to the experience of Silent Hill 4 that they chose to tell the story through two different perspectives.
And it doesn't matter if I've completed Half Life 2 or not because I'm not talking about Half Life, I'm talking about game perspectives in general. It would probably take me out of the game to switch weapons by staring at the controller, but I'm thinking mostly about my experience with Halo 2 multiplayer here, where the controls are basically second nature and switching weapons is purely visceral. There's a reason you'll never see Master Chief's face.
-Wes
PS - And to comment on the other discussion going on in this thread: GRAW is fucking amazing.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | I'm thinking mostly about my experience with Halo 2 multiplayer here, where the controls are basically second nature and switching weapons is purely visceral. There's a reason you'll never see Master Chief's face. |
The amount of time you have invested in Halo 2 is sick and beyond what most people put in all games throughout their whole lifes. You have to understand that before you make comments like that.
EDIT: That definition that you give just supports my argument.
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helicopterp
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | Besides, I don't see how a mute Gordon is a bad thing. I'd rather get my story exposition and my gameplay directly, rather than through long-winded dialogue with questionnable voice-acting. |
My recent comment on the 'large scale environemnts' thread about Metroid Prime fits in neatly with this thought.
And Shaper: yeah the 360 stuff for the rest of the year doesn't have any standouts. Bioshock and Castle Crashers won't be out until 2007.
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J.Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| helicopterp wrote: | | And Shaper: yeah the 360 stuff for the rest of the year doesn't have any standouts. Bioshock and Castle Crashers won't be out until 2007. |
Alien Hominid is scheduled for this year though. I know that it's old hat to you Sony console people, but it's new to me.
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Shapermc
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| J.Goodwin wrote: | | Alien Hominid is scheduled for this year though. I know that it's old hat to you Sony console people, but it's new to me. |
It came out on the Gamecube too. Oh, and the flash game at newgrounds.
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J.Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Shapermc wrote: | | J.Goodwin wrote: | | Alien Hominid is scheduled for this year though. I know that it's old hat to you Sony console people, but it's new to me. |
It came out on the Gamecube too. Oh, and the flash game at newgrounds. |
Hocked the GameCube. I don't play games on PC.
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OtakupunkX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Kind of off topic, I guess, but does anybody know if XBL Alien Homind is going to have all the extra features from the PS2/Gamecube version (i.e. Soviet Missile Masta, PDA Games, etc.)?
Edit - Now that I think about it, AH was also released on the Xbox (through mail-order) and GBA (only in the UK). |
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J.Goodwin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| OtakupunkX wrote: | Kind of off topic, I guess, but does anybody know if XBL Alien Homind is going to have all the extra features from the PS2/Gamecube version (i.e. Soviet Missile Masta, PDA Games, etc.)?
Edit - Now that I think about it, AH was also released on the Xbox (through mail-order) and GBA (only in the UK). |
I know it was on Xbox in Europe. Didn't know you could get it by mail order though. I'm not going to buy any inferior version at this point though, when I can wait a couple months and have the real deal.
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helicopterp
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, judging from John Baez's comments on the gamasutra podcast, you'll be getting an even realer deal than most of the rest of us. He's very impressed with what HD has to offer his "hand-crafted" games.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| helicopterp wrote: | | Dracko wrote: | | Besides, I don't see how a mute Gordon is a bad thing. I'd rather get my story exposition and my gameplay directly, rather than through long-winded dialogue with questionnable voice-acting. |
My recent comment on the 'large scale environemnts' thread about Metroid Prime fits in neatly with this thought. |
It's a good constraint on the developers, I feel. They have to actually make their game work, and it's not a poor artistic choice, either. I can certainly see why it would work in Metroid Prime, which I'm interested in trying out.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Would be nice to give Valve some money, but they got in bed with Satan on their own. |
buy it from steam direct?
or
buy it from steam, direct.
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