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fallout fans are LEGENDARY and should probably be NSFW!
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So basically you guys don't have to make sense because you don't like us. Check. I guess that's a nice job if you can get it.
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St. Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
In other words, you have nothing and have to rely upon vague statements in an attempt to sound erudite.


You should join DAC for a brief conversation with Blargh. I'm telling you.

Scratchmonkey wrote:
So basically you guys don't have to make sense because you don't like us.


Hell, I like you. You can come over to my place and fuck my sister.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how it doesn't make sense. Perhaps if I write one or two sentences you can understand it easier. A fan of anything shouldn't put up with shitty new stuff from something he once liked. Sure, the fans aren't owed anything. But why should they lap it up as if sweet ambrosia? This isn't the first time fallout has been made into a shitty sequel, so why remain optimistic?

Also mabye read what we post instead of just glancing through it, choosing a sentence and making a snarky reply to it. Or I'll headbutt you to death.


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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But for everything else, and there is an everything else to it, isn't it kind of, well, standard that you, as a company exploring a franchise that's new to you, look through the old franchises and the sites associated with these and absorb that information?


you're assuming they didn't. why? i would assume they most certainly did check you guys out, like every other company out there with some employee to do a quick online ethnography.

now, given that they not only know who you are but have, as you said earlier, banned people from certain originating sites, the issue is not that they didn't check with you but that they don't care for your input. they had assessed your creative value and found it, let's say, wanting? which you also seem to acknowledge, though it leads to terrible frustration on your part. there are plenty of examples of people being hired by companies from what is essentially amateur work.

however, there are plenty more examples of amateur work being ignored.

i'm sure star trek fans have done loads of analysis (above and beyond just plain old slash fiction) and so have every other fan on the block of anything. they all believe themselves to be special, and to have incredible insight, just like you guys do. that you feel slighted is understandable, i suppose, but only if you're coming from a position where you honestly think of yourself as a participant in the creation process. which, for better or for worse, you are not.

my favorite cult leader was osho rajneesh, if only for his anti-authoritarian free love gibberish and his ability to give people what they wanted in exchange for rolls royces.

but he once said this: "a disciple is an asshole in search of a human host."

maybe this is a form of courage, but i doubt it.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghostface Killa wrote:
after smashing away the foundations of your extreme arguments, your left with your dick in your hands and just say 'oh...ur awesome', hence.


motion that this be dhex's new sig.

also, i love how st. toxic took the wikipedia suggestion seriously. this is a new breed of discourse right here.
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Jesus Christ
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

St. Toxic wrote:
Hell, I like you. You can come over to my place and fuck my sister.


Of course we like you scratchmymonkey…

DaC is a place of love. We like most people over at DaC. If it’s hate’n you are looking for you should go and meet some of the fallout fans at No Mutants Allowed or RPGcodex, they would tear you a new love hole.


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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No thanks! This is really as close as I want to come to slumming.
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Jesus Christ
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Ghostface Killa wrote:
after smashing away the foundations of your extreme arguments, your left with your dick in your hands and just say 'oh...ur awesome', hence.


motion that this be dhex's new sig.

also, i love how st. toxic took the wikipedia suggestion seriously. this is a new breed of discourse right here.


It could do without the "hence"
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:


i'm sure star trek fans have done loads of analysis (above and beyond just plain old slash fiction) and so have every other fan on the block of anything. they all believe themselves to be special, and to have incredible insight, just like you guys do. that you feel slighted is understandable, i suppose, but only if you're coming from a position where you honestly think of yourself as a participant in the creation process. which, for better or for worse, you are not


well its not just as much, your favourite thing has a sequel, and you dont like it. they just make sequels that are really fucking shit, dont stand up to the originals, totally throw everything out that made the first things interesting. it also seems that people like the original stuff more anyway, such as um...star trek? star wars? with those things they tried to make something new and hip and just make a dribbling pile of fucking dogshit monsters that nobody likes anyway, so i dont see how you can defend jar jar binks or scott bakula or any of that, since its just the utter crap.

like, you find it odd how fallout fans are single-minded? i find it odd youd be buttfucked twice and then want to get buttfucked again, hoping the third time mabye itll be like 18 year old prime beaver.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the end you can break it down to simple equestrianality, just some people dont want to play shitty sequels? I don't see this as a bad thing. Wow, vocal. yeah well just eat your fucking vegetables and not complain about it, People probably step on your bootsies and you don't say anything, then when you get home you write a fucking BLOG about it or some shit.


so this is your idea of direct action?

so you guys are a tribe of long lost digital situationists who are attempting to reconfigure our ideas of what "fandom" means through exaggeration and farce?

dude, stop shattering my paradigms! i need these to understand the control memes of the ruling class!

now, i realize that calling me gay (teh gahyzorz) in your social pool's value system is a deep insult with many connotations, but you need to try harder. ooh ooh penises ooh ooh butts. yes. sodomy. the sodom gnosis. sodomology. seizing the black grail. etc.

Quote:
well its not just as much, your favourite thing has a sequel, and you dont like it.


i shrug and go about my day. did invisible war suck? you betcha. was cross development to blame. in part, most certainly. maybe i didn't love deus ex enough to throw a hissy fit for half a decade, but frankly, i'm not really interested in that kind of love. that's vampirism. that's the sort of shit where all the true fans - like st. toxic - sit around talkin' about how the band sold out because they're on a big label and now they're a part of the lives of the kids who beat them up in high school and fucked the cheerleaders they wanted to fuck. i mean, these kids loved this band, what about these fucking johnny come latelys that only know about it from mtv or the radio? they don't count! they're not real!

you guys, however, are real. a sign of cultural decay, perhaps - though i'm inclined to think of it as a side effect of cultural freedom. given enough room, people will get into all sorts of crazy conceptual shit.
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghostface Killa wrote:
like, you find it odd how fallout fans are single-minded? i find it odd youd be buttfucked twice and then want to get buttfucked again, hoping the third time mabye itll be like 18 year old prime beaver.


You have to be doing this on purpose at this point.

Look, how would somebody expect being on the receiving end of anal penetration to "be like" the act of penetrating another person? I know the word "fucking" is involved in both, so that might be confusing; you just have to sit down, take a couple deep breaths and work on these metaphors a little more.

I know you can do it!
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crpg, squad based strategy, third person shooter. different breeds, under the same name. you go in expecting some moist hole and all you end up with a drippy penis. now some of us with drippy penis, we dont like having it. we wont go back in the room for further drips. while it seems you 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice i just got butt fucked. fool me for the other sequel and i wear a tight over my head while you punch in my kidneys'

im sure thats simple enough for you! remain pessimistic in the face of uncertainty.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, dude! that's the whole point! see, he's playing with our culturally incubated conceptions of what masculinity and active/passive sexual roles mean!

how could bethesda not listen to these guys? listen? scratch that, i mean hire! oh fuck hiring, put them on the board of directors!

actually, fuck democracy! make these guys king!
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:trumpets:
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

did you like oblivion
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gamersquarter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=816

http://www.gamersquarter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1122
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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, it did some things right and some things wrong. for more information, check issue #6 and the article "worship the glitch." i touch on many of these issues we've already talked about, though mostly in the sort of capitulationist context that st. toxic has brought up previously. (i.e. demanding fans are an awful spectacle)

but since TES games are so easily modified - and so heavily manipulated - it's sort of dumb to complain about what was included in the original game. i came to morrowind a few years after it was released and essentially played a very different game than anyone who bought at launch.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah well. chalk and cheese. no way of comprehending the beauty, the majesty. john matrix would sort it all out, but he's awol. that's the problem with you americans, suck that shit through a straw and let da media control your way, you havent slept in the rain, slinging in the ghettos till the amount of black tar under your nails made them shrivel back on themselves double. yo, double trouble. up in da hood, playing fallout with mouse. in your house. cant understand the tuffness and hardship of true patriotism, not just to country but to the american dollar and iraq war. changing babys diapers, watch pimp my ride and want tv in your car, right?

you play shit, you repeat it forever. we're fed on the best protein.
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St. Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
you're assuming they didn't. why?


It went without discussion. I'm sure you think every Fallout fan jumps the gun and bites developers in the ass the first chance he gets, and that when we have suggestions or input or barebone facts about game development, we "write" it in tounges, replacing punctuation with tubgirls. Well, thats nonsence, but I'm pretty sure Beth bought into that as well. Fact is, if Fallout 3 comes anywhere close to the old Fallouts in terms of, y'know, accuracy towards the canon and hints back at the old world, it's likely doing so thanks to information obtained obtained in the Vault wiki or on the forums somewhere, but through lurking.

There's no communication, no bonding between the "Upholders of the franchise" and "The New Creators" or whatever you'd call it. Someone saw some ranting and some insults, took what he needed ( or didn't ) and pissed off without an input. That's, as you said, checking us guys out, about the same way I check for dust while vacuuming -- eyes out the window while doing that semi-masturbative arm motion. Not the deepest analysis, and by defenition, not the best way to gain information.

dhex wrote:
now, given that they not only know who you are but have, as you said earlier, banned people from certain originating sites


The Codex gave Oblivion a harsh review, and people on the tes forums seemed to embrace it a bit too much.

dhex wrote:
the issue is not that they didn't check with you but that they don't care for your input. they had assessed your creative value and found it, let's say, wanting? which you also seem to acknowledge


Well, how's this better? So they don't agree with our views -- what to do? How about, y'know, talk?

dhex wrote:
that you feel slighted is understandable, i suppose, but only if you're coming from a position where you honestly think of yourself as a participant in the creation process. which, for better or for worse, you are not.


We're not exactly talking about a direct involvement in the creation process. We're not asking to be consulted every time they want to add or remove something. At least review some points and arguments we've presented, ask a question or two on the forums and basicly show that there is a think-tank behind the "We're doing it all our way and it's the Oblivion way" decision. That won't exactly hype people over the edge about this new fangled Foblivion 3, but it would indeed reduce the venom.
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Scratchmonkey wrote:


You could try and work in Mike Tyson's quote about "fading into Bolivian" for a larf.

Screenshots: si!

Also: Thank you Gamer's Quarter Forums, for thus far being largely free of knuckleheads.




thus far and no further

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Lackey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pacing of this thread is insane, everytime I finish reading a page a new one has been added. I have a vague hope it will turn into a real, thorough discussion about the relationship between creators and consumers but I don't have the mental energy to put it on that track myself.

Is canon really important?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused about a lot of this. As far as I can tell, this is the order of events:

Fallout for PC gets released by Interplay and people love it.
Fallout 2 for PC gets released by Interplay and people kind of love it.
Fallout Tactics for PC gets released by Interplay and people kind of hate it.
Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel for Playstation 2 and Xbox gets released by Interplay and people really hate it.
Fallout 3 for PC and next-Gen systems gets announced by Bethesda and people get really pissed off that their beloved franchise is now going to be done by someone who doesn't understand what Fallout really means and refuses to consult fans about what it means.

That sounds about right. If I'm right in these assumptions, didn't Fallout get worse and worse with each iteration in Interplay's hands? If that's the case, isn't it better to let someone else do it?

I'm also confused as to why a community of a game's fans can't just ignore the stuff they don't enjoy rather than feel betrayed, and how anger induced message board posts/online petitions/attacking other forums really solves anything. If you're really that upset about something go do something about it instead of just complaining?

Here at The Gamer's Quarter we felt disillusioned by gaming journalism. It wasn't fitting our needs and knew that there had to be others out there like us so we created our own magazine to try to fix that problem. We were active rather than just bitching, and as a result we've put out 7 100+ page issues of what I feel is an awesome magazine/book. Go to the front page and download it to see what I'm talking about. It's no small task to put out a 100 page magazine/book and we've done it every three months for almost two years now.

Fallout's got a huge community that isn't getting its needs met. So why not do something about it and make a game instead of just complaining? Why not make your own post-apocalyptic game that actually does things right? You guys have put so much effort into complaining that I know you've got the drive to actually create something if someone would just get it started. You've got Fallout Tattoos for christ's sake! Just fucking do it or quit your bitching.

-Wes
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lackey wrote:
The pacing of this thread is insane, everytime I finish reading a page a new one has been added. I have a vague hope it will turn into a real, thorough discussion about the relationship between creators and consumers but I don't have the mental energy to put it on that track myself.

Is canon really important?


If its going to be in the same universe, it should follow canon.

Sense of place, immersion, etc. are served by consistency.

If canon constrains, just move the play area to a different part of the continent.

I was under the impression that FO3 would be mostly played in one huge city/ruin.

This could be great fun.
Overpasses, underpasses, subway tunnels, monorail lines( now footpaths), pedestrian bridges, catwalks/skywalks connecting buildings, etc.
Some standing, some ruined, some teetering.
Skyscrapers turned into fortresses (ala Beirut).

Factions and splinter groups, etc.

I can deal just fine with using Oblivengine with guns.
Make the combat more like America's Army or at least CS:S, but have a TB option that works perhaps like Anachronox BUT you move around on the real map and use cover/etc. And no stupid-ass FF-style combat animations. I guess what I mean would be like TOEE combat with 3D figures.
Twitchers and TBers both happy.
I can even deal with minigames- but they have to more stat based than twitch oriented.
(Maybe implement both and let us choose.)

I'd love to see science/repair minigames that combine a toned down version of MYST/etc with the tech-figuring-out flowcharts from Gamma World. Throw in an option just to roll for it. ( Already in, I think.)



The real dealio here is handholding and related evils.

Lackey wrote:
...discussion about the relationship between creators and consumers...


I suppose in some ways the apparent childish indignation of FO nutters is a mirror image of "xboxification".
Dumb down, dumb down some more - the insulted ones react like the monkeys at the zoo.
Screeching, hopping about, throwing their poop.

(We've seen Oblivion. We've seen FO:POS. Conclusions have been drawn.)


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Jesus Christ
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See this thread for the answer.

EDIT: that was to Wes.


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Lackey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
message board posts/online petitions/attacking other forums really solves anything.

I think both parties here have established that understanding.

Quote:
Just fucking do it or quit your bitching.

St. Toxic already mentioned this and, if I understand correctly, they regard bitching itself as an outlet. I mean it sort of makes sense. The bitching doesn't affect anyone else directly except in a case like this where it might be disruptive. So far it's been contained to this thread though, so fine. I'm actually gaining a more sympathetic view of fans in general from these messages. I still view obsession as poisonous and parasitic, but really why don't they have a right to complain? It's nothing.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We're not exactly talking about a direct involvement in the creation process. We're not asking to be consulted every time they want to add or remove something. At least review some points and arguments we've presented, ask a question or two on the forums and basicly show that there is a think-tank behind the "We're doing it all our way and it's the Oblivion way" decision. That won't exactly hype people over the edge about this new fangled Foblivion 3, but it would indeed reduce the venom.


you know, i would consider using this particular case study in a marketing communications class, specifically 'bout "new media" and other instantaneous forms of consumer-producer communication. presuming the class had enough basic background on the notion of ip franchises, it would be a pretty useful exercise.

had bethesda thrown you a bone of some sort, some kind of token act of communication and consideration, this may have helped calm things down a bit with the most vocal user base.

how much this is actually worth, however, is another issue. questions must be asked: what is the size of the constituency, and what is the harm in offending them? can they actually be satiated? are their interests reasonable? do they coincide with the goals of the software maker?

i would have to look at bethsoft's market research on this matter to actually make a decision; it is naive to presume this process wasn't completed some time ago, however.

as a blind guess, however, i would have considered hiring one consultant out of the group - whomever was most reasonable, regionally feasible, etc, to act as not only a "continuity consultant" of sorts but a liason between the marketing and design sides of the staff and the fan community. though i would most certainly pity that poor person if they were less than able at navigating the, uh, complaints and concerns of the core staff. the NDAs would have to be structured a little strangely to allow for at least some kind of information pipeline.

but yeah, that might have made a nice middle ground. they may even have considered it, maybe, if they thought it was worth it. i don't doubt an idea like this was floated by someone at some point.

Quote:
but really why don't they have a right to complain?


it's one thing to gripe. it's another thing to visit this griping upon third parties. don't get me wrong, as i feel i've learned a lot, but if i had to sum it up, i'd say "don't ever direct link to fan community forums"
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

St. Toxic wrote:
Lackey wrote:
I think that plague doctor animation is pretty rad.


Thanks. I myself find it's brilliantly simplistic, and in being so, quite beautiful. And the concept -- I mean -- plague doctors duking it out? It's a piece of artistic nonsence humour.

dhex wrote:
i remember sethsez from ic saying this a while back when discussing bethesda and the fallout 3 license (fuck it, i think it'll be cool regardless) and he'd mentioned some of the fansites as being filled with rabid and bitter people. i think he may have understated the case.


It's not an easy task summarizing the gist of it, even after doing so year after year. Every year a bucket of bad news hits the Fallout community, and with these bad news a few hopeful dreamers limp in, post some naive insight to what the problem is and how it could be solved, throw one or other insulting hint towards us dacsters being "too synical" and then go live the dream at "Radioactive society" or maybe "HL2 FORUMS" or something, after getting scolded by hot spam and flaming fury.

Now, I'll say it like this: If you're an avid movie goer of the YEAR 2000, and a pretentious fuck, you might value films such as American Beauty, Pulp Fiction, Dr. Strangelove, Full Metal Jacket and that old-mainstream lot. If you have peculiar music taste that doesn't involve worthless pop singles on the radio, and feel that this somehow makes you a superior twit, you'll notice that you are a minority. As an art critic you have your more and less favourite artists, and likely the proper motivation for your choice. With that said, behold:

They're making a follow-up to movie X -- your favorite movie. The original director and the original scriptwriters are out, original cast might at best be a cameo. What used to be a genre of, say, thriller, is now an action comedy. The guy directing the flick... well -- It's Paul Verhoeven and he's replacing Coppola in doing Apocalypse Now 2. Music example would be akin to, well, a newly bloomed pop band doing covers of nothing but your favorite 60's rock band's records, making tons of cash, and getting all the credit in public without anyone noticing. Art, well -- I paint a bowl of shit and stamp it Van Gogh, sell it for a billion dollars and keep on doing untill Van Gogh is synonimous with Bowl of shit.

In all three examples there are problems present, and you'd have to be pretty thick not to notice em'.

First off, Apocalypse Now doesn't swing with a follow up, just like Fallout pretty much said everything there is to say. Sure, you could add to it, but what's the point? Money is the point. There's no artistic value left in the artist, and to make money now means sucking artistic value out of gem-like movies, music and art and producing blander variations. It's as good a marketting strategy as any, but it feeds on the old works and damages their appeal.

Second, Van Gogh won't be painting anymore. There's no producing a Van Gogh, unless you somehow ressurrect Vince and get him going. Coppola probably won't be doing Apocalypse Now 2, and that 60's rockband is dead from that all peyote diet. Again, it's a product carrying their brand, but none of their artistic skills, which is a very sad thing. Their names are put on products of mediocre quality for the sake of money, and doing so their names gradually become synonimous with mediocracy. We, the public, know that any attempt to revive these artists in a new project, any attempt to follow in their footsteps, has 0% chance of success. I mean, it could be something, but it won't be Van Gogh.

Third, we find out that it's not really an attempt to follow in anybody's footsteps. It's more along the lines of a liberal loan of ideas. I mean, we have the jungle, we have Willard and we have gooks -- rest of it, y'know, I'll see what happens. Maybe Willard moves in with the frenchies in the jungle, after killing Kurtz, and starts a trade relation with the gooks, and we can have a cry-me-a-river drama shitfest. Maybe that awesome guitar intro needs some PUNCH PUNCH CHINK PUNCH drumloops in the background, with a remix of a white bitch singing dumb shit echoing out of the left speaker. Maybe that Van Gogh selfportrait needs a funny side to it, like big ears, a clown nose and a cake on his head. The one person who seriously enjoyed the previous works would surelly go "No! That completely fucks up the whole point of everything, while making no sense at all!" while a throng of other people would go "Well, I never really saw the original BECAUSE IT'S OLD AND UGLY LOL, so if they do a remake or a follow up, I'm into that. As long as the graphics are nice, and there's some nudity and a bucket of refried chicken waiting for me. I don't see what the problem is." The problem is, you're taking a piece of art, fucking it up and putting it for sale on e-bay, the place where a piece of concrete that's supposedly from the chinese wall sells for 1 million dollars. It sorts of works on one's principles.

Now, with these thoughts hanging over your head, you look up the people who might possibly be raping culture for profit, and attempt to establish dialogue. The first thing out of these bastards mouths is "We're doing it our way, and you can tag along or drop out.", and you're simply through listening after that point. Assumptions are made, and critique is displayed. With Bethesda counted, this is the third time this has happened, and, I think, the second time a company goes dead silent -- "stone wall" -- on the fallout fans. Now, logically a stone wall should be able to hold alot of pressure, but at the same time the pressure builds up over time because it has no room to escape, and when the wall is finally removed we get explosive decompression. Selfdefense or passive resistance is the way to go when you're being attacked, because just shutting up and locking people out fuels rumour and speculation and eventually anger and breaking down doors and calling the police and getting murdered -- it's a dead-end strategy.

However, they did just that. They banned people from the TES forums for being members of the Codex. They won't take contact with Fallout fans ( they're not all rabid ) hinting that they're all rabid, the little info we get ( mostly from people outside the company ) hints towards destruction, they're doing their thing and running with it and we, upholders of what's right and true in the world of Fallout have no say in what's what. Now, this isn't the first time this has happened so one resumes one's old behavour with a +2 synicism check, and over time as no step is taken towards mutual peace the situation gets worse. You put a successful man in a cage, take away all that he's lived for, refuse him food, water, company and info on the outside world, and you get a beast -- it's that simple. Who's fault is it really?

As for closing the "article", I think most Fallout fans would rather see the franchise left alone than raped further. There's no reason why Beth couldn't have made "Elder Scrowls: X the Post Apocalyptic X-box 360 game" successfully, and in their own way. So why are they doing Elder Scrolls: Fallout? Unless there's some misunderstanding, and the people who've so far come forward to state that "Well, it's Oblivion only less grass more sand, and less swords more guns" were people not directly involved in the project and also deranged, they're either trying to make money of the brand name ( which is illogical, as it only means anything to fans of the earlier games, which are seemingly not part of their estimated target audience ) or they're just doing it "for the hell of it lol" which is just utterly shameful ( well, both are ), and justly calls for outrage in the Fallout community.


St. Toxic wrote:
dhex wrote:
you really mean this, don't you?


Why not? Out of us and Beth. they're the new kids on the block in this one. They have all the right to be there, they payed their way in and everything is kosher. However, oh hell, I don't know, where they are about now, we were 6 years ago. We've seen the destruction of Interplay, and not just "Oh look. Good riddance" but out of an analytical perspective. We have a compilation of what's canon, and have pointed to one such previously. We've given fp v.s iso, rt v.s tb, among other things, a good 100 goings over, and in most cases from an unbiased perspective ( DAC's not just "Fallout fans" afterall, it's fans of everything "Post Apoc"). So we could have been a pretty decent frame of reference, in case, y'know, you were doing, like, a Fallout game.

The damning part of it is that the most common argument for us being ignored as a source for possible information is that anything we could possibly provide would not be a markettable concept. Now, for viewpoints and combat systems and what to do out of special and that lot, sure -- maybe they'll never sell it in a million years OSHIT THE JIG IS UP. But for everything else, and there is an everything else to it, isn't it kind of, well, standard that you, as a company exploring a franchise that's new to you, look through the old franchises and the sites associated with these and absorb that information?


dhex wrote:
By the way, where are the violent analogies and where the hell is the rage?


Well?

dhex wrote:
it's hard to know what the deal really is when you try to compare coercive dystopia to an ip being developed in a way you don't like.


As per my explanation, it was an analogy for the lack of communication from Bethesda's side fueling Fallout fan anger. The fact that you somehow turned it into bonkers bonanza, me following you in there and then adding an explanation, is just how communication tends to work when the people involved are on two different levels of understanding.


dhex wrote:
is this supposed to be serious? are you so wounded that hyperbole has become your only outlet?


dhex wrote:
i realize that many of you probably encountered this game at a very mentally vulnerable time in your lives (11 to 14 years old) and as such, it's become a strong touchstone of nostalgia. clearly.

but you have forgotten the first lesson: nostalgia is an evil fuck. nostalgia lies. nostalgia leads you do to dumb shit like this.


dhex wrote:
what i couldn't believe most of all was the idea that bethesda should consult with the - by your own admission - rabid fans over an ip they're developing.


Again, it seems you don't care to actually read what I post.

dhex wrote:
"now look what you made me do" isn't an excuse.


Every action has a reaction, and some are plainly obvious. What else can I say?

dhex wrote:
intensity is not validity.


Neither is softness, and at least I get to kick some heads in and get that daylife stress out of my system.

dhex wrote:
i linked to your site because a third party had mentioned, in a discussion about fallout and its badassitude, that a core fallout fans were known for being insane. or in pr speak, "a group of enthusiasts whose passionate devotion is legendary in some circles." and so i did some digging, and i was confused. and dismayed. and surprised. i'd just watched people lose their shit in the bethesda forums for various reasons, and with many of the same themes; see, these people loved (daggerfall or morrowind, depending on what they were griping about) so much that (oblivion or morrowind) was an insult to them. a personal insult


Hell, I don't know what their problem is. But you know what else is a personal insult? Speaking to someone indirectly. So it boils down to grade of reaction basicly. I mean, it's not the same with me -- I was never a big Bethsoft enthusiast, so I wouldn't know. But if it's their fanbase, that is, the core that kept them alive and made them big, you're talking about people directly investing money in the company. Suddenly the company aims their next big project towards a different crowd, gets all the glory -- "What the fuck" says old Bethesda fan. "You sold me out, you bastards, and made a bundle of it too. Now I feel completely meaningless." I mean, it's pretty much what every supporter can expect in the long run, so it's completely kosher -- both the anger and the businessmethod. However, this has no ties with the Beth Fo3 situation. That's a different story, and as far as I understand, I've already told it.

dhex wrote:
but most of all i was struck by how the language reminds me of two things; jilted teenage lovers and jilted music fans. which are, i suppose, similar groupings with some overlap. which is why i thought of alcibiades


Well, if you explain and argue in the same sense that I'm doing here right now, it always ends up with a small minority of people catching on ( attention span + interest in subj = X ) and then it's down to stamina. As unfortunate as may be, stamina is not how you win the contest, it's how the contest ends. As soon as one side's stamina is depleted, the argument boils down into nitpicking of small points with as little content as possible, something the other side now will have to follow closely so as to keep up with the competition. In the end the result is stagnation.

Lastly, arguments do not convert people who've already chosen sides, and have little if any impact on those who remain in the middle -- they are at best there to reassure those to who have already taken sides that they are indeed correct. So, what do you want to do when you're pissed off? You want to ventilate. I don't care if you're a wise, learned scholar -- if you had the hots for Daggerfall, and want to piss about the TES forums ( where the average age is kindergarten ) you'll sink beyond your years into their level and just do your part of spamming for the cause. Different from well thought out arguments, spam takes 2 seconds of your time and no brain capacity, while the provocation factor goes up 200%. What else is there?

dhex wrote:
you talk about ip law or market ethics, and i have to wonder just what you really mean.


Reforms. I've put a political party together in my community with priorities in market structuring. In short, if I win the election ( OLOWL) , it'll be illegal for IP's to be owned by registered corporations, IP's will either become public property or be locked away 8 years after registration ( a choice made by original founder ) and all company stock and property will be sold openly 12 years after registration to regulate the growth of these.


dhex wrote:
the idea that some company was supposed to consult you guys on anything is what really blows my mind. especially after this particular display


What does this "display" have to do with Bethesda "consulting" us? Obviously, what you've seen so far hasn't revitalized you to join our forums and become my personal best friend, but then again you're not a serious company and so that's ok. If a serious company wants to take over a serious project from another serious company, it seriously looks over who the consumers are and what they expect to recieve, and then it seriously delivers. You don't buy up the Bud brand and turn away from "the beer folks" to make irish malt whiskey, you stupid illuminati, even if that is your speciality, just because people arent jumping into your arms at the idea. You grab yourself by the throat and go out in public and say "Look, fine. Maybe it won't be like the good old days, but here's what I got to offer, and here's the part I'm willing to compromise on and I know you're concerned and this is my aim of the game and I'd like to see an input on this." because that, if anything, would shape the product into something both old and new consumers could buy and enjoy.

dhex wrote:
"they made us act like this" is how a child explains their behavior.


Well, what's your mature take on it? "They always been little krazy lol". We're the result of their strategy, and that of the identical strategy before that, and the nigh-identical spin-off strategy before that, and some of us ( the really bitter and articulate ones, as in, not me ) are the result of the handful of pointless brainfarts from Fallout 2. If your point is the fact that we actually release the built up steam, or that we're not completely apathetic and have a reaction towards things we concieve to be of a negative nature, as being some sort of "Only kids do that eh. Real men hold it INSIDE, and DON'T CARE", you're not exactly the best representative of this moral code. I mean, you brought it up and you flow with it -- obviously it's a subject of interest, and my defragmentation of your moot points has an impact on your well being

dhex wrote:
i love certain bands a lot;


And you also like writing without capitalization, so there we go. Music makes people dumb.

dhex wrote:
i support them, i evangelize for them, and i've even gotten to meet some of them. i consider myself lucky for that. but the day i cross over into


No, the day these bands get bought up by Christina Aguilera and streamlined into vomit so that black people can "shake their booty" and "get nekkid on the dance floo" or whatever people do is the day...

dhex wrote:
is the day i stop listening to music, because


Because you don't have the balls to stand up and say "I'm not into it, and this is why." Because you've somehow ( and I'm sure it's because you're lacking in talent and intellect, and people notice little things like that and, y'know, some dare even say it aloud ) gotten the impression that any input you as a consumer could have on a product you purchase, or any impression you have on a piece of art, is wrong and goes directly against the ideas of the artist or producer. Because you, and you're not alone in this, interpret revenue as the only binding proof of success, and anything you'd say against ( oh god no ) a marketting departement could logically only be a fallacy if they've already decided that it'll sell.

Now, I noticed you completely missed my point, and obviously think that Bethesda did Fallout 1 & 2. I just want to point out that, no, they didn't have a shit to do with those two games, and the Fallouts, well, they're, in words you'll understand, pretty fucking bitchin'. Now, Bethesda overtook the concept of Fallout in exchange for a sack of cash, and they claim that they'll go about the creation process of Fallout much alike to the one of Oblivion, hopefully ( they say ) with the exact same results.

Whatever planet you come from, you'll notice that Oblivion has very, very little to do with Fallout.

A) Bethesda did NOT, again, DID NOT have anything to do with Fallout 1 or 2.
B) No sewer midgets in Fallout.
C) No dynamic dialogues in Oblivion. ( dynamic monologues, sure )
D) Pete Hines.

I hope this clears up the matter for you. I'm not telling BIS how to make Fallout 3, and to be honest I'm not really telling Beth anything, but if I was it'd be akin to reasoning with Insane Clown Posse on how best to convey Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb without sounding like Insane Clown Posse, NOT telling Pink Floyd how to best convey Comfortably Numb THE WAY I WANT IT TO LOL.

dhex wrote:
such an intensely infantile response means i am not understanding the nature of this relationship, which mostly exists within my head.


Well, when I paint, animate, write or compose, during the production and after showing the finished result, there's nothing but thrill in opinions that go beyond "good" or "bad" but into constructive ideas on how to, according to this person that is, improve on the work. I won't grab every piece of advice and print it up -- in fact, few make it through. Those that do are however inspirational, and wether I use a piece of critique or not, it makes me happy that people actually give the work a thought beyond general quality measurement. Am I so wrong to listen to what people want? Does it in any way compromise my work? No fucking way. So that's how I treat other artists.

I'll drop in during some folk's band practice and give them my view on what horrors they're putting music through, and they go "Yeah. I was about to tone that down anyway and yabbadabba". They don't stare at me like I'm some fucking toddler, which is what they will do if you show up and go "Love the band, love the music. You guys rock and uh stuff. Can I get an autograph", because then you're just little Timmy, wanting a piggy back ride from Uncle Lucas.

I mean, have you read anything I've written so far? I'm asking for an ear, and a few finger movements of response back, as a result of the ear part. No one's dictating anything -- it's a request for communication, and communication is always beneficial.

dhex wrote:
they don't owe me a damn thing, no matter how much their work has touched my life. if they want to hear what i say that much, they'll hire me as a consultant.


I don't think anyone wants to hear you say anything, and certainly not pay for you doing so. But if you are a critical observer of their works, and now we're talking about works, not cheap cash, you'll have things in common you can talk about, and you may put up ideas that are novel and that will impact on their performance. Before "the big break" that seldom comes, it's pretty standard practice.

dhex wrote:
as someone who studies marketing, and most specifically, brand identification behavior (public policy and private sales, and all points in between) i am still trying to suss out the patterns of attachment and how they work. i don't think anyone has produced a really clear objective standard, though there's plenty of anecdotal evidence used in various ways. but there are a few major threads which seem to be cross-cultural; a sense of ownership or possession, a sense of a personal relationship (and injury or reward, depending on how the relationship fares) and a sense of individual absorption. that last part is probably the kicker; even though fans of all stripes form communities (like tgq) one thing that shows up in brand identification patterns time and time again is that the work is speaking to the individual, or sometimes even through the individual from a remote, platonically ideal source. it veers off into metaphysics, and seems to be constant across media lines. (books, music, film, games, tv, sports and to a lesser degree, politics and religion, which have their own kinds of brand identification issues above and beyond the mediasphere)

all of these recent posts would have been a far better introduction to this discussion, for what its worth. would i still think you're wrong? yes. but i'd be less inclined to use "fallout fans" in the same way i use "anime fans" - as a single phrase explanation for attachment gone awry. which is the funny part - i'm generally the guy who makes fun of jrpgs and anime and most things japanese in general. i generally much prefer western design and development in a pc context.


Me, I'm open for anything. So far however, jRPG's and anime have left a rather bland impression. There's alot of techniqes and gadgets and mindsets from these that can come in handy in personal projects, but other than that the whole is rather rubbish.

In any case, you had warranted no discussion of this magnitude in the beginning, and I opened it mainly out of pity for you guys, as it seemed there was little in understanding either the humour or the slander coming from the other dacsters, or differating the two from each other. Add lack of general knowledge about the Fallout phenomenon, and difficulty of simulating or even understanding the DAC mental state, and were this catholicism, you'd make the Pope spill his beans out of empathy.

dhex wrote:
but i had a far higher opinion of you guys before yesterday


I haven't formed any opinion about you or the other clowns. I'm looking at a set of plate glass windows, still wondering what those stains might be.

ApM wrote:
I've got a serious urge to modify the Wikipedia page for cultural genocide to include your point of view as an example. I don't see why you guys haven't done so! Clearly your cause is comparable.


Probably wouldn't last too long, or be taken seriously. Besides, it's not the destruction of cultural heritage, it's destruction ( or defiling ) of culture in general.

ApM wrote:
Maybe take out that whole boring section on Tibet and replace it with Bethesda making a new Fallout game that some guys don't think they'll like. I guess because it won't have an isometric viewpoint?


Well, I couldn't give a rats ass about Tibet, so hey. But it's not just iso, it's alot of things. Continue browsing the site.

Lestrade the HUG MASTER wrote:
Yes, after St. Toxic's last "rebuttal", I've realized that you can't win an argument with someone who doesn't speak the same language.

That's polite-talk for: you're insane, and possibly stupid.


What makes you say that? The fact that we have different priorities in life, shrouding the intentions of my words in a mist of unknowing due to your uncompromising outlook, or the fact that you simply don't -- read -- well?




St. Toxic wrote:
I treat pretty much everything the way I treat Fallout, for better or worse.

Requesting 9 pages of passionate text about your dishwasher plz.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it's one thing to gripe. it's another thing to visit this griping upon third parties. don't get me wrong, as i feel i've learned a lot, but if i had to sum it up, i'd say "don't ever direct link to fan community forums"

I'm sure you're right. If it were only the hijinks this thread would have been wasted.

Can you think of a fan community liason actually being hired by a company? I'm sure I've heard of it happening, but no specifics come to mind.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you think of a fan community liason actually being hired by a company? I'm sure I've heard of it happening, but no specifics come to mind.


yes. every single little and mid-sized indie label ever. or at least a lot of them. the process of creating "street teams" - which applies to nearly anything big or small - is similar online, except you get a lot more noise for your buck. whereas when you actually get the kids to go out and flyer around and whatnot...that's a bit more involved and requires some ability to either travel or drive and some initiative.

beyond that, i can think of a few people who moved up from doing street team work to pr and marketing stuff, as well as the more mundane internships and the like.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus Christ wrote:
See this thread for the answer.

EDIT: that was to Wes.


thread wrote:
Do we look like a gaming company to you? Can we code? Can we do art? Few of us can. And guess what? They can't spent half day doing it because it's not their job. So we can do modding at best. This is where fun starts. Do you know why 95% of mods fail? Because making them is not job. You don't have time, sometimes you don't have motivation either. Even if you do, your sound effects guy will suddenly get married or something and he will just say "Sorry, I can't do it anymore". That's how fanmade projects fail: Done in meantime, no motivation, no management, no deadlines to keep people on their toes, everyone is living on a different continent so you can't really control them...


I refuse to believe that in a community of 1,995 members nobody knows how to draw, code, or write. The reason you haven't done it is that it's easy to bitch and hard to actually go out and do something. Take that rage and make a something with it instead of making complaints and excuses. It's not going to easy, but you've got enough skilled people there that you shouldn't really have any trouble finding people to do tasks as long as someone is motivated and organized enough to make sure that everything gets done. There's nothing wrong with modding a game if it accomplishes what you're going for.

Food for thought: We do our magazine on a memberlist of 225 people, and over 2.5% of those members are people from your forum that came over here to harrass us. Go do it!

-Wes

EDIT: I'd also like to add that one of our members made this awesome game almost entirely by herself, with the music and title screens done by other members.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think making a fangame is really a necessary or viable solution. Of course, complaining is also a waste of energy.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lackey wrote:
I don't think making a fangame is really a necessary or viable solution.


Who said fangame? I'm talking about making a game that accomplishes everything they feel a Fallout 3 game should be doing. They shouldn't necessarily need to base it on Fallout to do that.

-Wes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wes, that's so page 4 or 5 of this thread. get with it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lackey wrote:
Is canon really important?


It is in the continuation of a series. Otherwise, well, it wouldn't be a series, other than in name only.

SuperWes wrote:
Fallout for PC gets released by Interplay and people love it.
Fallout 2 for PC gets released by Interplay and people kind of love it.
Fallout Tactics for PC gets released by Interplay and people kind of hate it.
Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel for Playstation 2 and Xbox gets released by Interplay and people really hate it.
Fallout 3 for PC and next-Gen systems gets announced by Bethesda and people get really pissed off that their beloved franchise is now going to be done by someone who doesn't understand what Fallout really means and refuses to consult fans about what it means.

That sounds about right. If I'm right in these assumptions, didn't Fallout get worse and worse with each iteration in Interplay's hands?


Well, in line with most things. Honestly, getting another BOS like spinoff, only this time a successful BOS would be a really bad kick in the teeth for the fans of the original Fallouts. In any case, bigger than if the franchise died with Iply.

SuperWes wrote:
I'm also confused as to why a community of a game's fans can't just ignore the stuff they don't enjoy rather than feel betrayed, and how anger induced message board posts/online petitions/attacking other forums really solves anything. If you're really that upset about something go do something about it instead of just complaining?


Well, some are pondering to cross the line into physical abuse. Ignoring the destruction of an artistic piece of ip, well, I can, but I, y'know won't and don't really want to.

SuperWes wrote:
Here at The Gamer's Quarter we felt disillusioned by gaming journalism. It wasn't fitting our needs and knew that there had to be others out there like us so we created our own magazine to try to fix that problem. We were active rather than just bitching, and as a result we've put out 7 100+ page issues of what I feel is an awesome magazine/book.


Hey, you're the pride of the internets. How about you mix us up a plan on how to dismantle the Bethesda game machine in a constructive and groovy way?

SuperWes wrote:
Fallout's got a huge community that isn't getting its needs met. So why not do something about it and make a game instead of just complaining?


Because that's not really an issue, and hence not really a solution.

Lackey wrote:
I still view obsession as poisonous and parasitic


Obsession? Hell, I don't even like Fallout. I'm just standing up for the little guy and filling my needs to rave and preach in doing so.

dhex wrote:
how much this is actually worth, however, is another issue.


From a business perspective? Probably nothing at all, unless we'll somehow lower their sales post release by raging in many voices non stop, which I think is a very, very slim chance. But they are a bright bunch sometimes, the Fallout guys, so hey -- maybe they'll mint an expression or sway the opinions somehow, no way of knowing. Viewed from the market perspective however, it's nothing and working with nothing is a complete waste. I wouldn't blame any single company for this, because it's pretty standard so I'd blame the standard.

dhex wrote:
it's one thing to gripe. it's another thing to visit this griping upon third parties.


Well, the Fallout community reputation makes a bunch of other people on forums I've never even heard of cry their guts out about everything from a - z. Sometimes the effect of this is people joining up at our forum, to re-educate us about the rights and wrongs of the real world and that whole Schindlers list lot. I, as many others, find it hilarious, and so once or twice a small party may migrate and do the same thing over at other forums. So it's pretty much poetic justice.

Swimmy wrote:
Requesting 9 pages of passionate text about your dishwasher plz.


I don't have a dishwasher.

Lackey wrote:
Can you think of a fan community liason actually being hired by a company?


People who used to be members of the fan community frequently get hired, and modders can and have got endorsement and money from companies many times over. I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand.

Dr. Dracula wrote:
it's easy to bitch and hard to actually go out and do something


Bitching is much harder than taking action. How many times I've wanted to let it all go and do my own thing, and yet I've stuck with it, and I'm glad I did. It pays off in the end, see.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, that's the problem, isn't it? attaching too much importance to the name "fallout".

there are plenty of other games to play. dynamic conversations? play planescape: torment. rich post-apocalyptic gameworld? well, how about wasteland? don't like fallout 3? don't play fallout 3! it's not as though there are no other venues for you to find satisfying and meaningful gameplay experiences, or that the name "fallout" alone should automatically invoke one.
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Lackey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lackey wrote:

Can you think of a fan community liason actually being hired by a company?


People who used to be members of the fan community frequently get hired, and modders can and have got endorsement and money from companies many times over. I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand.

That was in response to dhex's thing about PR negotiation.
Quote:
How many times I've wanted to let it all go and do my own thing, and yet I've stuck with it, and I'm glad I did. It pays off in the end, see.

See, that's the confusing detail; what is the pay off?
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St. Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
well, that's the problem, isn't it? attaching too much importance to the name "fallout".


Can't argue there. I'm emotional over stamping buckets of shit with Fallout or Van Gogh or whatever. I don't enjoy inaccurate representation of names I respect. I guess maybe that's being too attached? Because y'know, I take offense on pure principle in this situation -- it's not nice, so I get sad. Maybe, I should like, not care.

dessgeega wrote:
there are plenty of other games to play.


Y'know, Beth secretly bought Planescape as well.

http://rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15089&highlight=

dessgeega wrote:
it's not as though there are no other venues for you to find satisfying and meaningful gameplay experiences, or that the name "fallout" alone should automatically invoke one.


We've been over that. Sure, lots of other games, I play thousands of games for tenths of seconds ( when I don't work billions of hours ). But facing the prospect of Fallout being remembered as that semi-successfull first-person free-roamer that's about hookers and jet and rumours, kind of, y'know, makes me nag -- "Why oh why are they fucking up a beautiful thing even further?".

Lackey wrote:
See, that's the confusing detail; what is the pay off?


Oh, lots of things. You're part of a small elite task force, for one, that produces "pissed off" and "always being right". I was joking.

Honestly, part of the pay off is, we're doing pretty much the only proper thing one can be doing. Even with a professional team of developers, there's not much we can do to save the Fallout ip from Beth. Just shutting up and not giving a fuck, we're being ignorant bastards. Acceptance is out of the question, because, well honestly, I couldn't and if I could, I'd feel pretty bad about myself. So, as bitching bullies with a cynical undertone, we're taking the proper moral stand against the mistreatment of said ip, while getting to vent and ridicule people, thusly enjoying ourselves, along the way. If somehow we find an Akilles heal to prod at on said enemy, we do our best to prod to kill, and if it works we've "done the world a favour". Or maybe the company collapses pretty much on it's own accord, and again we win by having predicted this outcome. "Had they only listened to us". It's magic.
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:

I refuse to believe that in a community of 1,995 members nobody knows how to draw, code, or write. <snip>

Food for thought: We do our magazine on a memberlist of 225 people, and over 2.5% of those members are people from your forum that came over here to harrass us. Go do it!

-Wes

EDIT: I'd also like to add that one of our members made this awesome game almost entirely by herself, with the music and title screens done by other members.


Most of those 1995 people are inactive (and this is after 2000-4000 accounts were purged in a recent cleanup) Probably many lurkers, but only 30-40 post regularly, and only half of that number are heavily active.

You are right about the whining, though.
It is mostly ritualistic.

There is the Merc mod for FO2, but that two-man project is more of a stat-grinder than anything else.

Some crap here:
Lies!(just look at the pictures)
Downloads
Modding

NMA is much larger and more focused- they consider DAC to be the "goatse forum".
Or something.
TRS- The Radiated Society . Is a bunch of kids larping an imaginary internet government.
Or something.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As toxic said, it's not really about Fallout as well, I haven't played fallout for a while. It's grown into it's own thing. THIS is the new game, surfing the world wibe web and squashing stuff. Sure, fan bases start to make games. But how many actually go really far enough to become finished? And how many are played by people outside the fan base? I'd say...slim to none! This is as productive I'd say, spreading the word. It's a lot faster for all parties involved. There are dozens of us...dozens!

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10075525&catid=21140&test%5Fcookie=1

Smile

I'd say the anti-fans of...fallout are worse than the actual fans, but I don't really care anymore. Like they remade italian job, texas chainsaw massacre. New money for old shit. It's not just using the name, it's another sequel in a long line of dog dirt. Toxic has covered most bases, but it needs MORE BULLET POINTS.
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St. Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I agree. Give them the short version of it as well.

By the way, I glanced through the pdf mag ( briefly, I have some business to attend to momentarily ) and it seems to have a strong console domination. Am I right? The illustrations and layout seem rather professional and the illustrious article titles make you come of as slightly, well, female. I'm sure it's the best mag out there for people interested in the inner workings of Super Mario Brothers and wish to "educate" themselves on games, rather than play them. Are there any plans for a 3-4 page article on Donkey Kong Country, DK2 & DK3 and the gameplay genious of letting people pick up barrels and throw them ( not to mention playing the game as two characters each with their possible interactions on the game world and each other ) ? If not, would you accept one?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

St. Toxic wrote:
The illustrations and layout seem rather professional and the illustrious article titles make you come of as slightly, well, female.


thanks?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread was entertaining!

I think some people need to find more things to enjoy in life other than computer games.

Seriously.
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Wilkes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

after reading the 7th page, the whole thread sort of gets thrown out of focus. I'm speaking pretty literially; my glasses just sort of stopped working.

anyway, legendary thread, et cetera. probably better I wasn't here for it.
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
St. Toxic wrote:
The illustrations and layout seem rather professional and the illustrious article titles make you come of as slightly, well, female.


thanks?


I think he meant as opposed to the "excited sportscaster style" of the average game site.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilkes wrote:
after reading the 7th page, the whole thread sort of gets thrown out of focus. I'm speaking pretty literially; my glasses just sort of stopped working.

anyway, legendary thread, et cetera. probably better I wasn't here for it.


dude where the fuck is my harmonica
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

St. Toxic wrote:
Oh I agree. Give them the short version of it as well.
<snip>
Are there any plans for a 3-4 page article on Donkey Kong Country, DK2 & DK3 and the gameplay genious of letting people pick up barrels and throw them ( not to mention playing the game as two characters each with their possible interactions on the game world and each other ) ? If not, would you accept one?


Y'know, that would be a lot of fun to do.

Maybe even do it Old (as in good) Onion style and have Guest Philosophers to do a weekly review.

"Stealthing with Shopenhauer"
"Deathtrap Dialectic"
etc.

It's been done, I know.
Still cool, though.

(Or fill out Mad Libs with random lines from Blargh posts and Megatron vignettes. Add video game pictures and pretend its an article.)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Market realities are a strange and beautiful thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if any of these people have seen Misery.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every day my friend...


Every day. Crying or Very sad
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