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fallout fans are LEGENDARY and should probably be NSFW!
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Ghostface Killa
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Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that amusing, haw, as you see dear 'Scratch' it is you who have become the stereotypical anti-fan. Yup, indeed. Through all da years of bein the ruffest, tuffest fallout fan to walk the earth, anti-fans take the high road while submitting there own sickness in another form, that not of this world! the web wide world of being a big ol' pansy! Yup, throughout...da posting history...of da phpbb. the shittiness of the threads eats away at the corners of my eyes, the sucking and fucking amongst yourselves culminates into the general image of a giant squirming being, somehow thinking himself above one set of dorks when he himself is one. Sure, perhaps you can muster up such words as 'maturity' or dismissing a biomass as rabid, say. But the fact is, sun down. Who are you. Where's your crew? You're down in da ghetto with broken knuckles and no posse, no morals. No flag to stand next to, bravely salute as you plunge into battle against the forces of whatever is trying to fuck your shit up. Yup. All the same, two faces. One for fun, one for making fun! You're no fun, just another jenga piece. Get with the program, open your sinuses and snort line after line of pure, uncut truth. Might have a nasty aftertaste baby, but that's just the way it is. Knuckle up or swing low. Dig?
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You never answered my question about where the "h" went.

And "no, you are!" would have been shorter.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

h is unaple to be added because of copyright infringement ok

also, you are a lazy bitch. thats not even a monkey for crying out loud. no flair, you're terrible.
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, you're here to entertain me, don't talk to me about "flair".

PS: Nice drapes.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you got it wrong baby. the hunter becomes the hunted. vis a vis!



im gonna photoshop dis to helen bach. Twisted Evil
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no! Not Photoshop!

I can feel the pixel dicks in my mouth already. O! I am undone!
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

more like you can feel the REALITY dicks in your mouth

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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm...not even sure what you're trying to do with that.

Are you the noob? No, no, I think I'm supposed to be the noob. And apparently I've taken some shitty acid.

You might need a do-over on that one chief.

EDIT: On the other hand, if this is the capper of a long and cruelly plotted scheme to pretend to be the worst kind of internet lulz fandom to string us along then well played, well played sir.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no...i think this site is! SHIT YOU GOT FLAMED



ok im not doing any more so just post your myspace so i get all da material i need
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this isn't performance art of some kind I'm going to be really disappointed.
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Lackey
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that plague doctor animation is pretty rad.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you aint cryin like a little bitch then you lying

the simple end is. i wont play fallout 3 as my computer is shit. so fallout fans reign supreme once again.
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you haven't used the smiley with the lens flare on his shades yet.
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dark steve
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghostface Killa wrote:
no...i think this site is! SHIT YOU GOT FLAMED



ok im not doing any more so just post your myspace so i get all the material i need
If I paypal some money towards the server bill of your fan community, can I rent you out for other invasions?
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St. Toxic
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lackey wrote:
I think that plague doctor animation is pretty rad.


Thanks. I myself find it's brilliantly simplistic, and in being so, quite beautiful. And the concept -- I mean -- plague doctors duking it out? It's a piece of artistic nonsence humour.

dhex wrote:
i remember sethsez from ic saying this a while back when discussing bethesda and the fallout 3 license (fuck it, i think it'll be cool regardless) and he'd mentioned some of the fansites as being filled with rabid and bitter people. i think he may have understated the case.


It's not an easy task summarizing the gist of it, even after doing so year after year. Every year a bucket of bad news hits the Fallout community, and with these bad news a few hopeful dreamers limp in, post some naive insight to what the problem is and how it could be solved, throw one or other insulting hint towards us dacsters being "too synical" and then go live the dream at "Radioactive society" or maybe "HL2 FORUMS" or something, after getting scolded by hot spam and flaming fury.

Now, I'll say it like this: If you're an avid movie goer of the YEAR 2000, and a pretentious fuck, you might value films such as American Beauty, Pulp Fiction, Dr. Strangelove, Full Metal Jacket and that old-mainstream lot. If you have peculiar music taste that doesn't involve worthless pop singles on the radio, and feel that this somehow makes you a superior twit, you'll notice that you are a minority. As an art critic you have your more and less favourite artists, and likely the proper motivation for your choice. With that said, behold:

They're making a follow-up to movie X -- your favorite movie. The original director and the original scriptwriters are out, original cast might at best be a cameo. What used to be a genre of, say, thriller, is now an action comedy. The guy directing the flick... well -- It's Paul Verhoeven and he's replacing Coppola in doing Apocalypse Now 2. Music example would be akin to, well, a newly bloomed pop band doing covers of nothing but your favorite 60's rock band's records, making tons of cash, and getting all the credit in public without anyone noticing. Art, well -- I paint a bowl of shit and stamp it Van Gogh, sell it for a billion dollars and keep on doing untill Van Gogh is synonimous with Bowl of shit.

In all three examples there are problems present, and you'd have to be pretty thick not to notice em'.

First off, Apocalypse Now doesn't swing with a follow up, just like Fallout pretty much said everything there is to say. Sure, you could add to it, but what's the point? Money is the point. There's no artistic value left in the artist, and to make money now means sucking artistic value out of gem-like movies, music and art and producing blander variations. It's as good a marketting strategy as any, but it feeds on the old works and damages their appeal.

Second, Van Gogh won't be painting anymore. There's no producing a Van Gogh, unless you somehow ressurrect Vince and get him going. Coppola probably won't be doing Apocalypse Now 2, and that 60's rockband is dead from that all peyote diet. Again, it's a product carrying their brand, but none of their artistic skills, which is a very sad thing. Their names are put on products of mediocre quality for the sake of money, and doing so their names gradually become synonimous with mediocracy. We, the public, know that any attempt to revive these artists in a new project, any attempt to follow in their footsteps, has 0% chance of success. I mean, it could be something, but it won't be Van Gogh.

Third, we find out that it's not really an attempt to follow in anybody's footsteps. It's more along the lines of a liberal loan of ideas. I mean, we have the jungle, we have Willard and we have gooks -- rest of it, y'know, I'll see what happens. Maybe Willard moves in with the frenchies in the jungle, after killing Kurtz, and starts a trade relation with the gooks, and we can have a cry-me-a-river drama shitfest. Maybe that awesome guitar intro needs some PUNCH PUNCH CHINK PUNCH drumloops in the background, with a remix of a white bitch singing dumb shit echoing out of the left speaker. Maybe that Van Gogh selfportrait needs a funny side to it, like big ears, a clown nose and a cake on his head. The one person who seriously enjoyed the previous works would surelly go "No! That completely fucks up the whole point of everything, while making no sense at all!" while a throng of other people would go "Well, I never really saw the original BECAUSE IT'S OLD AND UGLY LOL, so if they do a remake or a follow up, I'm into that. As long as the graphics are nice, and there's some nudity and a bucket of refried chicken waiting for me. I don't see what the problem is." The problem is, you're taking a piece of art, fucking it up and putting it for sale on e-bay, the place where a piece of concrete that's supposedly from the chinese wall sells for 1 million dollars. It sorts of works on one's principles.

Now, with these thoughts hanging over your head, you look up the people who might possibly be raping culture for profit, and attempt to establish dialogue. The first thing out of these bastards mouths is "We're doing it our way, and you can tag along or drop out.", and you're simply through listening after that point. Assumptions are made, and critique is displayed. With Bethesda counted, this is the third time this has happened, and, I think, the second time a company goes dead silent -- "stone wall" -- on the fallout fans. Now, logically a stone wall should be able to hold alot of pressure, but at the same time the pressure builds up over time because it has no room to escape, and when the wall is finally removed we get explosive decompression. Selfdefense or passive resistance is the way to go when you're being attacked, because just shutting up and locking people out fuels rumour and speculation and eventually anger and breaking down doors and calling the police and getting murdered -- it's a dead-end strategy.

However, they did just that. They banned people from the TES forums for being members of the Codex. They won't take contact with Fallout fans ( they're not all rabid ) hinting that they're all rabid, the little info we get ( mostly from people outside the company ) hints towards destruction, they're doing their thing and running with it and we, upholders of what's right and true in the world of Fallout have no say in what's what. Now, this isn't the first time this has happened so one resumes one's old behavour with a +2 synicism check, and over time as no step is taken towards mutual peace the situation gets worse. You put a successful man in a cage, take away all that he's lived for, refuse him food, water, company and info on the outside world, and you get a beast -- it's that simple. Who's fault is it really?

As for closing the "article", I think most Fallout fans would rather see the franchise left alone than raped further. There's no reason why Beth couldn't have made "Elder Scrowls: X the Post Apocalyptic X-box 360 game" successfully, and in their own way. So why are they doing Elder Scrolls: Fallout? Unless there's some misunderstanding, and the people who've so far come forward to state that "Well, it's Oblivion only less grass more sand, and less swords more guns" were people not directly involved in the project and also deranged, they're either trying to make money of the brand name ( which is illogical, as it only means anything to fans of the earlier games, which are seemingly not part of their estimated target audience ) or they're just doing it "for the hell of it lol" which is just utterly shameful ( well, both are ), and justly calls for outrage in the Fallout community.
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I input 15 minutes of mischief and I get 15 minutes entertainment.


meh


Coulda been better.

How the fuck did I find this place anyway?
(*blackout*)

A nice little break from spamming DAC.


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Cycle
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually read an interview with one of the people working on the new game, and it sounds like they know what they are doing. They really seemed to sincerely care about the license. So, I'm actually not that worried... when we get some previews happening, my mind may change, but right now I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt. Also, I'm not batshit insane like some of the other fans, which makes this easier.
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Swimmy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghostface Killa wrote:
i am a powerhouse of pure might, so lets listen to dragonforce together

I saw them Saturday night. The singer was kind of annoying.

I like long-winded rants about Apocalypse Now more than pictures of Hitler. St. Toxic has redeemed himself.
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dhex
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the symposium, a drunken alcibiades interrupts the drinking party of socrates and company and their speeches on the nature and identity of love. (aristophanes gives a mythical account of the origin of sexual longing that's truly worth reading) anyway, socrates has just finished his entry when alcibiades stumbles in with a crew of equally drunk revelers. he takes over position as the dude who decides who drinks what and begins to harangue socrates.

now, alcibiades was in love with socrates, and his drunken speech is a recounting of his failed seduction of socrates. along the way he claims to have seen socrates true self (like an ugly and hollow statue filled with tiny golden figurines of the gods) yet is unable to understand why he could not have seduced socrates - and thereby gained his secrets and his knowledge. he wanted to sell his body to save his soul, as it were, but socrates didn't bite. so the bitterly drunk alcibiades accuses socrates of fooling the people he seduces with his words, because he has no desire for physical entanglements. the seducer had become ensnared by the object of his machinations, and this fills him with rage and confusion.

the evening ends at that, with more drunkenness and a seemingly sober socrates discussing writing. years later alcibiades betrays athens to sparta (and desecrates the genitals of statues in the temple of hermes to boot).

many things were said about love over the course of the evening; about nobility, about the need for educational opportunities to take precedence over sexual gratification in relationships involving young men and older men, questions about why and how. diotima (via socrates) explains one of the central points of platonic thought on sexuality - there needs to be a result from the coupling beyond sexual or emotional gratification. the metaphor of pregnancy is used to explain how different male and female partners combine and enrich each others' lives through physical and emotional attraction. it's an argument against shallowness and especially against complacency. something needs to come of a love affair; and perhaps alciabiades' own treason is a reflection of socrates' unwillingness to physically (and more importantly, emotionally and intellectually) indulge him, etc.

but i think it's a more reasonable reading of the text to draw this point: effort is required on both parts, and more than adoration and lust by both parties. love is more than a gift or a transference. itís something that effects both parties, and the lives around them, by what is born from it.

it is great you guys love fallout so much. but your love has turned to bitterness and rage.

Quote:
Selfdefense or passive resistance is the way to go when you're being attacked, because just shutting up and locking people out fuels rumour and speculation and eventually anger and breaking down doors and calling the police and getting murdered -- it's a dead-end strategy.


consider, for a moment, the language youíre using compared to the context. you not only invoke the threat of murder on the part of the party thatís putting up "walls" (bethesda) but you list their only options as capitulation or retribution. love blinds us to the reality of the world around us.

you bought a game in a store. you brought it home and played it. and it spoke to you. it said things you couldnít believe, and you found others who were as dazzled and lovestruck as alcibiades was by socratesí wisdom. but you couldnít have fallout. you didnít own it and you never did. you had an experience, and you owned that, but it only existed in the forum of your soul. it marked you, as the platonics thought good and evil deeds marked the soul.

you insist your internal reality is the same as the world around you, and furthermore, that it owes you something. this experience was so intense that you have begun to feel that your group understands in a way that others do not (which is true) and this intensity should be an overriding factor in bethesdaís decisions in how to handle the ip. this is your experience, dammit, and no one should be able to take this away from you!

clearly, there is a problem here.

Quote:
You put a successful man in a cage, take away all that he's lived for, refuse him food, water, company and info on the outside world, and you get a beast -- it's that simple. Who's fault is it really?


this man clearly locked himself in the cage. it is his fault. it is his responsibility.

you donít wonder why Bethesda doesnít consult you guys on things. no one does. you played a game. you did not design it. you did not own it. you didnít own anything. you didnít believe that this experience was more than an emotional reaction caused by your brain chemistry interacting via your senses with a computer screen.

did Alcibiades love Socrates? maybe. but what he really loved was the feeling he got from being around him, and he wanted to know where it came from. Socrates probably told him the truth Ė it comes from their interaction, and from inside Alcibiades. Alcibiades had the chance to become someone better, but he forsake it because he refused to think of his emotions as his responsibility; it is socratesí fault, after all, for being so damn smart.

and so he lived for him. or so he said.

Alcibiades may have loved, or lusted, or at least been truly infatuated with Socrates, but his love was twisted and weak because it failed to see what the object of his desire truly was. he forsook the humanity and reality of the situation in favor of the most dramatic emotional displays he could muster. and, eventually, he committed treason of heart and soul and nation, and the rest is history. what came from his sense of ownership and entitlement? pain and misery for him, to be sure, but did he ever get what he wanted?

no. why not? because what he wanted was impossible. he wanted to own Socrates, and force him to make the external world match the way he felt inside. was this possible? as is eventually proven in the apology, you have to kill this motherfucker to get him to do anything.

which is, I assume, the source of the violent analogies and the rage and everything else that has passed for our discourse over the course of the last 24 hours.

Quote:
Unless there's some misunderstanding, and the people who've so far come forward to state that ďWell, it's Oblivion only less grass more sand, and less swords more gunsĒ were people not directly involved in the project and also deranged, they're either trying to make money of the brand name ( which is illogical, as it only means anything to fans of the earlier games, which are seemingly not part of their estimated target audience ) or they're just doing it "for the hell of it lol" which is just utterly shameful ( well, both are ), and justly calls for outrage in the Fallout community.


I hope you and everyone else who is lost in the desert and canít find a home to return to will find their way there eventually. i hope we all get there.

Code:
This is what it is to go aright, or be led by another, into the mystery of Love: one goes always upward for the sake of this Beauty . . . and from these lessons he arrives in the end at this lesson, which is learning of this very Beauty, so that in the end he comes to know just what it is to be beautiful.

        Symposium, 210d-211c

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Redeye
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Killing rats in cave
the true forms of Fallout seen;
glowing dream desert



Next week: Zeno's plasma rifle
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Bluntman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's not an easy task summarizing the gist of it...
That's the best summation of the reasons behind Fallout loyalists' outrage that I've ever read.

Quote:
years later alcibiades betrays athens to sparta
Those silly Greeks! If they're not assfucking one another they're fucking one another in the ass.
Quote:
but your love has turned to bitterness and rage.
That sure has the ring of truth to it.

Quote:
you insist your internal reality is the same as the world around you
I don't know the line of reasoning you used to come up with that (though right now I do have one fuck of a case of sleep deprivation, so bear with me).

Quote:
- Bethesda owes Fallout fans nothing & 'rabid' fans should shut the fuck up if they don't like it

To say that Bethesda can do with FO3 whatever they choose because they own the rights (which is absolutely true), though critics have no right to raise hell when they see a load of shit about to be shovelled out is just hypocrisy of the first rank.

Quote:

I hope you and everyone else who is lost in the desert and canít find a home to return to will find their way there eventually. i hope we all get there.
Some have. You're safe and you know it.

Quote:

Killing rats in cave
the true forms of Fallout seen;
glowing dream desert

A righteous haiku.
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Bluntman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Man, you're here to entertain me, don't talk to me about "flair".
You can't handle entertainment, bitch! www.donkeypr0n.com
The link doesn't work! Fuck! You lucky bastards!

Quote:
I paypal some money towards the server bill of your fan community, can I rent you out for other invasions?
Save your money. Your rentboy needs a sex change.
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bluntman wrote:
Quote:
years later alcibiades betrays athens to sparta
Those silly Greeks! If they're not assfucking one another they're fucking one another in the ass.


I just wanted to point out that I called this.

dhex: anyway, i hope my post is appropriate

Scratchmonkey: I almost hope the thread ends that way
it would be nicely bracketed
of course, this means that somebody will come back and say Hey those Greek guys sure were fags

dhex: right
it's the chance i had to take
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dhex
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To say that Bethesda can do with FO3 whatever they choose because they own the rights (which is absolutely true), though critics have no right to raise hell when they see a load of shit about to be shovelled out is just hypocrisy of the first rank.


this is what i meant about confusing internal and external realities.

intensity doesn't create legitimacy. you guys feel very intensely, but this doesn't translate into anything in the real world, unless you make it. the forum exists, and these mods sort of exist, and that's about it. that's the great child of all of this love for fallout.

and this thread, i mean. and i'm sure there are dozens others quite like it - perhaps not as snappy or filled with inspiring photoshop. that's not much of a legacy.

does anyone exist who cares about this title but doesn't know about you guys? i think i was the last straggler. bethesda put up a wall because you have nothing to add to the conversation. whether this translates into a better or worse title, i don't know, but it's probably far less aggravating to make.

(none of this is hypocrisy; the word you were looking for is probably "bullshit." they are not synonyms.)

fuck, now i owe scratch a beer. thanks a lot, dudes.
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Toto
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallout fans, what does this acheive?
If you wanted to prove to us the worth of your games, this doesn't convince people.
I'm less likely to play Fallout now that I know it has a rabid fanbase.
Where's the arguing for your games merirts and such like? Sad
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simplicio
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yikes, I'm late for the zeitgeist!

Quote:
have you seen my
fallout tattoo
it is the
best

Sad


This has been a beautiful thread. Thanks y'all.
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toto wrote:
Fallout fans, what does this acheive?
If you wanted to prove to us the worth of your games, this doesn't convince people.
I'm less likely to play Fallout now that I know it has a rabid fanbase.
Where's the arguing for your games merirts and such like? Sad


The obsession itself is more interesting than the object.
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Lestrade
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, talk about ridiculous. Hey guys, you better run along now. Your mom's boyfriend wants to come over, and you're going to be late for your local militia bake sale/VNV Nation concert.

(I actually like VNV Nation, dammit)
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St. Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
effort is required on both parts, and more than adoration and lust by both parties.


Effort -- effort. What's that, the "make your own" mod argument or "gosh talk to the devs like a normal person sheesh" argument? Or, as a wildcard, maybe you're saying "Well, both of you guys ( fo's and beth's ) totally can't find mutual ground and you suck". Let me clear all three, for future reference.

1) There's no point in making a Fallout mod, as it adds nothing to the original Fallout world, and being so constricted by the Fallout canon one is bound to fill the project with condradictions and faults. If anything, there are countless possibilities of creating new ip's, and the question still stands why Beth didn't chose to do just that.

2) The article on bos that summoned this thread was written post such attempted relations, and shows a good deal of what forms of deceit Fallout fans had to face during 'peace time'.

One pretty good example would be:

Dark Underlord wrote:
We were told that money from Fallout Tactics would help bring us Fallout 3, so the fans supported it (and made it the highest pre-ordered game on the Interplay web-site in history). THEN, with no mention of Fallout 3, the powers that be put Fallout Tactics 2 on the road to production. That is, until the fans stopped supporting Fallout Tactics and started attacking it for being a pile of crap.


This isn't longer about Fallout, but about general company honesty and principiality. By now the fo-fans can ( or think they can ) smell bullshit a mile away. In any case, all optimism has been branded blind for time being, until there's something undeniably concrete for the public to stand on concerning the development.

Now, that was Iply, and with Beth it went a similar way. Few were enthusiastic, but at least there was least no fuel for the fires. Over time Beth provided fuel, and now it's flaming -- like a flaming homosexual ogosh.

3) Fine. I mean, what can I say that will put the blame on them, without making me sound childish? It's not a person to person relation -- more along the lines of USA in meeting with the USSR on THE INTERNET. In any case, no weakness will be shown.

dhex wrote:
love is more than a gift or a transference. itís something that effects both parties, and the lives around them, by what is born from it.


We're not really talking about love here doh. We're talking about preservation. I mean, the pyramids don't mean a shit to me, and yet I'd, y'know, feel sorry if some bastard blew them up and put a supermall where they used to be. Seeing that happen, I think most people would rise up against THE MAN. While some out of "love" or strong attachment, many ( or should I say most ) out of the barebone appretiation of the object as being unique and cherishable. Now, I know no one's physically destroying the two original Fallout games, but one could surmise that if the Louvre Pyramid was so successful it cast a long shadow of forgetfulness over the egyptian pyramids, following generations would be glancing over these mighty structures and seeing nothing but big, pointless mountains of sand, or worse, getting dissappointed that they aren't made out of glass.

dhex wrote:
it is great you guys love fallout so much. but your love has turned to bitterness and rage.


Our "love" has found a novel romantic aquaintance, and he's a total douchebag. So we tried to let go, but he keeps coming over to our house, hinting at all the million ways that he's raping our "love", and throwing pebbles at us being worthless. Meanwhile, his many friends are always staying over, talking of what a great match they are, our "love" and this romantic aquaintance, and asking why we're so unhappy with their perfect relationship. I'm not bitter. No, I'm fine with it, I can be the bigger man up to that point. But there's no fucking way I'll be agreeing with these people, or treating them like my best buddies.

dhex wrote:
consider, for a moment, the language youíre using compared to the context


English motherfucker, do you speak it? :M

dhex wrote:
you not only invoke the threat of murder on the part of the party thatís putting up "walls" (bethesda)


I was thinking of the Berlin wall at the time.

dhex wrote:
but you list their only options as capitulation or retribution. love blinds us to the reality of the world around us.


The reality is, they can do what the fuck they want. I wasn't listing options, I was listing alternatives that would have a far more positive effect on the fo community. In any form, it would be communication. I hate to say it, but I think general incomprehention blinds you to the reality of the words around you.

dhgeyx wrote:
you bought a game in a store ... sucking cocks behind the 7/11 ... and evil deeds marked the soul.


Buddy, that's some homoerotic shit right there. No one's claiming ownership of Fallout, not even the original developers and creators of Fallout. I am, as they are, powerless to intervene in what I see as defiling of a piece of art -- yes, that's right. And this is an argument against bitterness how?

dhex wrote:
you insist your internal reality is the same as the world around you, and furthermore, that it owes you something.


No, that's what you insist by eating at a restourant, voting in the election or posting a thread of personal views on a group of people to whom you've had minimal exposure, expecting a response that coincides with your expectations of a response. My thesis would be more along the lines of ip law and market ethics reformation, rather than the delusionate "Fallout is da best, touch it and die" monotheistic cultism, contra "Fallout is good, make more fallout or whatever" uncaring atheism. I don't take sides in quality, only personal morals & principles, over those of law. The fact that they don't coincide is not proving me or the society wrong.

dhex wrote:
this man clearly locked himself in the cage. it is his fault. it is his responsibility.


By his actions, Winston put himself in the cage. He and no one else was responsible. It is the truth, and nothing but the truth. For most people, their compassion dictates otherwise, but I guess you were on "Big Brother's" side all the way through 1984. In any case, I was making a point about putting brick walls in every exit, and leaving only one way out -- the bad way.

dhex wrote:
you donít wonder why Bethesda doesnít consult you guys on things. no one does. you played a game. you did not design it. you did not own it. you didnít own anything.


They don't consult the designers or the developers of the originals either, and they, y'know, had a big part in it, so, eh, maybe, eh, shut up. The consultation, as you put it, is taking us as a serious guideline and factor. At least acknowledge our existance, and the fact that we have serious inputs to make.

DU, the writer of the article you posted, wasn't talking about lack of Fallout fans getting hired for the BOS or lack of devs dropping by to ask wether feature X would be good or not. He was talking about BOS being blind to the lack of interest for a Fallout console title, which was everywhere and in buckets of obvious. BOS didn't take reference from the earlier Fallouts, BOS didn't take -- hell, did the dev team ever stop to check what the fuck they were doing? No. Had they however a two sided form of communication between themselves and the community ( and that's FO community and caRPG community ), at least its' major flaws and inaccuracies could have been avoided, and maybe it'd have, y'know, sold and entertained.

Now, I don't think you know about John Matrix anymore, but had we listened to em back in Norway 67', we'd have won the Vietnam war back in 58', and Kurtz would have been alive and well. It's Fallout, we're Fallout fans -- I mean, it's just plain silly that we're avoided by the company making Fallout, and seemingly any advice we'd give, they'd go right against.

As for "you played the game", as Todd or Pete or whomever said "GREAT GAMES ARE PLAYED, NOT MADE LOWL", so uh, take that.

dhex wrote:
which is, I assume, the source of the violent analogies and the rage and everything else


How inaccurate of you. By the way, where are the violent analogies and where the hell is the rage?

dhex wrote:
intensity doesn't create legitimacy. you guys feel very intensely, but this doesn't translate into anything in the real world, unless you make it. the forum exists, and these mods sort of exist, and that's about it.


Hate to break it to ya' wiz kid, but mods don't create legitmacy to cancel another company's project, unless you think we'd have room to compete with them on the game market, which we can't since we don't have the rights. Y'know? Maybe, eh, we have the right to be a little pissed off? That is what the thread is about, isn't it? It's not about us not making any "mods evendoh they're all like in love with Fallout", right?

Here's my base of productivity: www.ofp.info, because, y'know, sometimes bohemia picks up on add-ons and modifications and basicly make a whole new fucking game out of it, with revenue. Sort of, like, not a lost cause, you jackass.

dhex wrote:
(none of this is hypocrisy; the word you were looking for is probably "bullshit." they are not synonyms.)


Let's recap.

Bethesda can do anything they want to with FO3, because they own the rights to the ip.

Check.

Critics have no right to be angry when they see a load of shit about to be shovelled out.

Check.

Oh, it's nonsense alright, but you're also a fucking hypocrite to say that. I mean, what does this say about these supposed virtues you hold dear? What does this say about your views on freedom? Should we BUY our opinions somehow? Do we need to pay money ( should I say, more money? ) to have a say in a quality discussion? They payed for the ip sure, so maybe we need to buy stock in their company to rage on our own private time?

Toto wrote:
Fallout fans, what does this acheive?


Ventilation?

Toto wrote:
If you wanted to prove to us the worth of your games, this doesn't convince people.


Hang on. Convincing people that your taste is the right one? What the fuck would that achieve? How about you buy and try?

Toto wrote:
I'm less likely to play Fallout now that I know it has a rabid fanbase.


Because it spreads or because you picture yourself joining forums to ask "HOW RECHARGE CAR?" expecting hugs and kisses, instead getting the "Have you equipped the ring?" quip and eventually flaming, and crying yourself to sleep everafter until you die in a horrible car accident?

Toto wrote:
Where's the arguing for your games merirts and such like?


On the site.

Lestrade the BIG FISTER UMPF UMPF UMPF wrote:
Wow, talk about ridiculous.


HO HO HO. Talk about irony.

Lestrade IN DA HOUSE YO SHAKE THAT BOOTY wrote:
Hey guys, you better run along now.


Oh! Here it comes! HERE IT COMES! DUCK AND COVER!

Lestrade DO DAD WILD THANG wrote:
Your mom's boyfriend wants to come over, and you're going to be late for your local militia bake sale/VNV Nation concert.


So you're coming over? Should I place her ashes on the bed as per usual, or is a mirror and a razor blade o.k with you?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe you kids should try, like, playing a new game. it'll do you a world of good, i'm sure.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes you think I'm not playing new games, while standing up against grave injustice? Is it ignorance or stupidity? ( see, I can make funny assumptions too :cleck: )
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was hoping you would accuse me of being teh gay.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fags die god laughs
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

St. Toxic wrote:
How inaccurate of you. By the way, where are the violent analogies and where the hell is the rage?

I think he was referring to the whole "Oh God these people disagree with us let's spam their forums and talk about raping their mothers" thing.

It's cool that you hate Bethesda and everything they're doing with the sequel of a series you dig. It's cool that you criticize them for it. It's just bizarre that you care so much that you initiate TEH INVASIONS against the people who don't really care as much as you do. In fact, it's humorous to us that you have made a single videogame such an integral part of your life and time. Hence, a thread about how Fallout fans are crazy.

Lighten up. We don't care as much as you do. We're not going to care as much as you do. Your NERDRAGE is pretty offputting.

(For the record, I think most of the best art has come from attempts to piss off admirers and fans. I feel like reading the entire Great Gatsby to you guys, or replacing the hero of Fallout with an effeminate blonde man. Ooh, or maybe singing you that new Dethklok song from Sunday night.)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Grave injustice?" No, see: cultural genocide is a grave injustice. Slavery is a grave injustice. A goddamn computer game is nothing of the kind. Go play some Tetris or something. Or hey, here's a thought: go outside! It's chilly but sunny out here right now; why don't you go explore the great outdoors where you are? You might even see a poverty-stricken, homeless old lady, and then you can start thinking about what constitutes a "grave injustice."

Imagine if book clubs were this fanatical and ridiculous. People reading classic Victorian literature would suddenly crash the Contemporary Can-Lit party and start complaining that Mary Shelley isn't listening to them and that "Van Helsing" isn't canon or something.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lestrade wrote:
the Contemporary Can-Lit party


This reminds me that I hate Alice Munro and love Yann Martel.

And, yeah, I really don't understand why you Fallout cats are so up in arms either.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swimmy wrote:
I think he was referring to the whole "Oh God these people disagree with us let's spam their forums and talk about raping their mothers" thing.


Spamming forums and talking about rape has nothing to do with any form of disagreement. Let me assure you that it's a common topic and post method over at our own forums.

Swimmy wrote:
It's cool that you hate Bethesda and everything they're doing with the sequel of a series you dig. It's cool that you criticize them for it. It's just bizarre that you care so much that you initiate TEH INVASIONS against the people who don't really care as much as you do.


I think that was done for entertainment purposes, and nothing else.

Swimmy wrote:
In fact, it's humorous to us that you have made a single videogame such an integral part of your life and time. Hence, a thread about how Fallout fans are crazy.


I treat pretty much everything the way I treat Fallout, for better or worse.

Swimmy wrote:
Lighten up. We don't care as much as you do. We're not going to care as much as you do. Your NERDRAGE is pretty offputting.


From what I understood by the invitation you wanted to be educated -- behold les products.

Lestrade HUNG LIKE A BULL CAN U DIG IT wrote:
"Grave injustice?" No, see: cultural genocide is a grave injustice.


I don't see how it's graver than destruction of culture?

Lestrade WAVE YO HANDS IN TEH AIH wrote:
Slavery is a grave injustice.


Well, it seems to have settled in now, in form of wages so low they barely keep you afloat, and this is somehow acceptable in the sense that it's a choice you made by, for instance, being born poor and getting no education. The same can be applied to the african slaves, so in a way we're all ok with it.

Lestrade LIKE YOU JUST DON'T CARE wrote:
A goddamn computer game is nothing of the kind.


Destruction of intellectual property isn't something to which you can apply "You had it coming", and since the only people who care are helpless in preventing it, it's indeed a 'grave injustice'.

Lestrade ABOUT STLKR: OBLIVION wrote:
Go play some Tetris or something. Or hey, here's a thought: go outside! It's chilly but sunny out here right now; why don't you go explore the great outdoors where you are? You might even see a poverty-stricken, homeless old lady, and then you can start thinking about what constitutes a "grave injustice."


Who gives a rats ass? People die, people suffer, and nothing will change that. Ideas and achievments should stand unsoiled, and if they're not -- hell -- we can at least be assholes about it.

Lestrade LOOKING FOR BOOK-KLAN MSG ME wrote:
Imagine if book clubs were this fanatical and ridiculous. People reading classic Victorian literature would suddenly crash the Contemporary Can-Lit party and start complaining that Mary Shelley isn't listening to them and that "Van Helsing" isn't canon or something.


Well, y'know, christianity is basicly a book club, and those guys sure did some whackin'. Through history we have countless records of people clashing over beliefs, ideals asf, and in some instances even the writers, scientists and creators wage battle against each other. Because accuracy is the sum of what people think is accurate, and most any case where right differates from major belief is a case where someone went to great length to crack some heads, either through speech or force.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big ups to lestrade for making an ebm joke itt.

Quote:
The consultation, as you put it, is taking us as a serious guideline and factor. At least acknowledge our existance, and the fact that we have serious inputs to make.


you really mean this, don't you?

you guys have serious input to make to the game design process?

really?

you're not joking? this isn't some elaborate put-on, where you're
parodying every kid who grew up watching movies and thinks he knows
better than those who actually do? you feel genuinely slighted by
bethesda not paying you some sort of attention by dint of your devotion?

i will say this: i don't really know what to believe anymore. thank you for leading me into the great unknowing.

Quote:
By the way, where are the violent analogies and where the hell is the rage?


Quote:
Selfdefense or passive resistance is the way to go when you're being attacked, because just shutting up and locking people out fuels rumour and speculation and eventually anger and breaking down doors and calling the police and getting murdered -- it's a dead-end strategy.


Quote:
Our "love" has found a novel romantic aquaintance, and he's a total douchebag. So we tried to let go, but he keeps coming over to our house, hinting at all the million ways that he's raping our "love", and throwing pebbles at us being worthless. Meanwhile, his many friends are always staying over, talking of what a great match they are, our "love" and this romantic aquaintance, and asking why we're so unhappy with their perfect relationship. I'm not bitter. No, I'm fine with it, I can be the bigger man up to that point. But there's no fucking way I'll be agreeing with these people, or treating them like my best buddies.


Quote:
By his actions, Winston put himself in the cage. He and no one else was responsible. It is the truth, and nothing but the truth. For most people, their compassion dictates otherwise, but I guess you were on "Big Brother's" side all the way through 1984. In any case, I was making a point about putting brick walls in every exit, and leaving only one way out -- the bad way.


it's hard to know what the deal really is when you try to compare coercive dystopia to an ip being developed in a way you don't like. is this supposed to be serious? are you so wounded that hyperbole has become your only outlet?

"now look what you made me do" isn't an excuse. intensity is not validity.

i realize that many of you probably encountered this game at a very mentally vulnerable time in your lives (11 to 14 years old) and as such, it's become a strong touchstone of nostalgia. clearly.

but you have forgotten the first lesson: nostalgia is an evil fuck. nostalgia lies. nostalgia leads you do to dumb shit like this.

i linked to your site because a third party had mentioned, in a discussion about fallout and its badassitude, that a core fallout fans were known for being insane. or in pr speak, "a group of enthusiasts whose passionate devotion is legendary in some circles." and so i did some digging, and i was confused. and dismayed. and surprised. i'd just watched people lose their shit in the bethesda forums for various reasons, and with many of the same themes; see, these people loved (daggerfall or morrowind, depending on what they were griping about) so much that (oblivion or morrowind) was an insult to them. a personal insult, to be repaid with angry postings and threats of non-support. to which i linked to here as well, with a commentary on

but most of all i was struck by how the language reminds me of two things; jilted teenage lovers and jilted music fans. which are, i suppose, similar groupings with some overlap. which is why i thought of alcibiades -

you talk about ip law or market ethics, and i have to wonder just what you really mean. what i couldn't believe most of all was the idea that bethesda should consult with the - by your own admission - rabid fans over an ip they're developing.

the idea that some company was supposed to consult you guys on anything is what really blows my mind. especially after this particular display - and no, "they made us act like this" is how a child explains their behavior.

i love certain bands a lot; i support them, i evangelize for them, and i've even gotten to meet some of them. i consider myself lucky for that. but the day i cross over into "they should do xyz because i think it would be the right thing to do" is the day i stop listening to music, because such an intensely infantile response means i am not understanding the nature of this relationship, which mostly exists within my head. this band doesn't exist because of me, or for me. forgetting that is how people end punching someone else in the face because they're wearing the wrong team's baseball cap on the subway.

they don't owe me a damn thing, no matter how much their work has touched my life. if they want to hear what i say that much, they'll hire me as a consultant.

as someone who studies marketing, and most specifically, brand identification behavior (public policy and private sales, and all points in between) i am still trying to suss out the patterns of attachment and how they work. i don't think anyone has produced a really clear objective standard, though there's plenty of anecdotal evidence used in various ways. but there are a few major threads which seem to be cross-cultural; a sense of ownership or possession, a sense of a personal relationship (and injury or reward, depending on how the relationship fares) and a sense of individual absorption. that last part is probably the kicker; even though fans of all stripes form communities (like tgq) one thing that shows up in brand identification patterns time and time again is that the work is speaking to the individual, or sometimes even through the individual from a remote, platonically ideal source. it veers off into metaphysics, and seems to be constant across media lines. (books, music, film, games, tv, sports and to a lesser degree, politics and religion, which have their own kinds of brand identification issues above and beyond the mediasphere)

all of these recent posts would have been a far better introduction to this discussion, for what its worth. would i still think you're wrong? yes. but i'd be less inclined to use "fallout fans" in the same way i use "anime fans" - as a single phrase explanation for attachment gone awry. which is the funny part - i'm generally the guy who makes fun of jrpgs and anime and most things japanese in general. i generally much prefer western design and development in a pc context.

but i had a far higher opinion of you guys before yesterday, to be sure. love is a battlefield.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No more entertainment value here.


Sad





Topical shit, then:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh what a risque nihilist you are.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, after St. Toxic's last "rebuttal", I've realized that you can't win an argument with someone who doesn't speak the same language.

That's polite-talk for: you're insane, and possibly stupid.

Either way, thread over. Flawless victory.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed this thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a rather boring middle section, it picked up near the end.

6.7 out of 10!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

St. Toxic wrote:
Lestrade HUNG LIKE A BULL CAN U DIG IT wrote:
"Grave injustice?" No, see: cultural genocide is a grave injustice.


I don't see how it's graver than destruction of culture?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a serious urge to modify the Wikipedia page for cultural genocide to include your point of view as an example. Maybe take out that whole boring section on Tibet and replace it with Bethesda making a new Fallout game that some guys don't think they'll like. I guess because it won't have an isometric viewpoint?

I don't see why you guys haven't done so! Clearly your cause is comparable.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
you really mean this, don't you?


Why not? Out of us and Beth. they're the new kids on the block in this one. They have all the right to be there, they payed their way in and everything is kosher. However, oh hell, I don't know, where they are about now, we were 6 years ago. We've seen the destruction of Interplay, and not just "Oh look. Good riddance" but out of an analytical perspective. We have a compilation of what's canon, and have pointed to one such previously. We've given fp v.s iso, rt v.s tb, among other things, a good 100 goings over, and in most cases from an unbiased perspective ( DAC's not just "Fallout fans" afterall, it's fans of everything "Post Apoc"). So we could have been a pretty decent frame of reference, in case, y'know, you were doing, like, a Fallout game.

The damning part of it is that the most common argument for us being ignored as a source for possible information is that anything we could possibly provide would not be a markettable concept. Now, for viewpoints and combat systems and what to do out of special and that lot, sure -- maybe they'll never sell it in a million years OSHIT THE JIG IS UP. But for everything else, and there is an everything else to it, isn't it kind of, well, standard that you, as a company exploring a franchise that's new to you, look through the old franchises and the sites associated with these and absorb that information?


dhex wrote:
By the way, where are the violent analogies and where the hell is the rage?


Well?

dhex wrote:
it's hard to know what the deal really is when you try to compare coercive dystopia to an ip being developed in a way you don't like.


As per my explanation, it was an analogy for the lack of communication from Bethesda's side fueling Fallout fan anger. The fact that you somehow turned it into bonkers bonanza, me following you in there and then adding an explanation, is just how communication tends to work when the people involved are on two different levels of understanding.


dhex wrote:
is this supposed to be serious? are you so wounded that hyperbole has become your only outlet?


dhex wrote:
i realize that many of you probably encountered this game at a very mentally vulnerable time in your lives (11 to 14 years old) and as such, it's become a strong touchstone of nostalgia. clearly.

but you have forgotten the first lesson: nostalgia is an evil fuck. nostalgia lies. nostalgia leads you do to dumb shit like this.


dhex wrote:
what i couldn't believe most of all was the idea that bethesda should consult with the - by your own admission - rabid fans over an ip they're developing.


Again, it seems you don't care to actually read what I post.

dhex wrote:
"now look what you made me do" isn't an excuse.


Every action has a reaction, and some are plainly obvious. What else can I say?

dhex wrote:
intensity is not validity.


Neither is softness, and at least I get to kick some heads in and get that daylife stress out of my system.

dhex wrote:
i linked to your site because a third party had mentioned, in a discussion about fallout and its badassitude, that a core fallout fans were known for being insane. or in pr speak, "a group of enthusiasts whose passionate devotion is legendary in some circles." and so i did some digging, and i was confused. and dismayed. and surprised. i'd just watched people lose their shit in the bethesda forums for various reasons, and with many of the same themes; see, these people loved (daggerfall or morrowind, depending on what they were griping about) so much that (oblivion or morrowind) was an insult to them. a personal insult


Hell, I don't know what their problem is. But you know what else is a personal insult? Speaking to someone indirectly. So it boils down to grade of reaction basicly. I mean, it's not the same with me -- I was never a big Bethsoft enthusiast, so I wouldn't know. But if it's their fanbase, that is, the core that kept them alive and made them big, you're talking about people directly investing money in the company. Suddenly the company aims their next big project towards a different crowd, gets all the glory -- "What the fuck" says old Bethesda fan. "You sold me out, you bastards, and made a bundle of it too. Now I feel completely meaningless." I mean, it's pretty much what every supporter can expect in the long run, so it's completely kosher -- both the anger and the businessmethod. However, this has no ties with the Beth Fo3 situation. That's a different story, and as far as I understand, I've already told it.

dhex wrote:
but most of all i was struck by how the language reminds me of two things; jilted teenage lovers and jilted music fans. which are, i suppose, similar groupings with some overlap. which is why i thought of alcibiades


Well, if you explain and argue in the same sense that I'm doing here right now, it always ends up with a small minority of people catching on ( attention span + interest in subj = X ) and then it's down to stamina. As unfortunate as may be, stamina is not how you win the contest, it's how the contest ends. As soon as one side's stamina is depleted, the argument boils down into nitpicking of small points with as little content as possible, something the other side now will have to follow closely so as to keep up with the competition. In the end the result is stagnation.

Lastly, arguments do not convert people who've already chosen sides, and have little if any impact on those who remain in the middle -- they are at best there to reassure those to who have already taken sides that they are indeed correct. So, what do you want to do when you're pissed off? You want to ventilate. I don't care if you're a wise, learned scholar -- if you had the hots for Daggerfall, and want to piss about the TES forums ( where the average age is kindergarten ) you'll sink beyond your years into their level and just do your part of spamming for the cause. Different from well thought out arguments, spam takes 2 seconds of your time and no brain capacity, while the provocation factor goes up 200%. What else is there?

dhex wrote:
you talk about ip law or market ethics, and i have to wonder just what you really mean.


Reforms. I've put a political party together in my community with priorities in market structuring. In short, if I win the election ( OLOWL) , it'll be illegal for IP's to be owned by registered corporations, IP's will either become public property or be locked away 8 years after registration ( a choice made by original founder ) and all company stock and property will be sold openly 12 years after registration to regulate the growth of these.


dhex wrote:
the idea that some company was supposed to consult you guys on anything is what really blows my mind. especially after this particular display


What does this "display" have to do with Bethesda "consulting" us? Obviously, what you've seen so far hasn't revitalized you to join our forums and become my personal best friend, but then again you're not a serious company and so that's ok. If a serious company wants to take over a serious project from another serious company, it seriously looks over who the consumers are and what they expect to recieve, and then it seriously delivers. You don't buy up the Bud brand and turn away from "the beer folks" to make irish malt whiskey, you stupid illuminati, even if that is your speciality, just because people arent jumping into your arms at the idea. You grab yourself by the throat and go out in public and say "Look, fine. Maybe it won't be like the good old days, but here's what I got to offer, and here's the part I'm willing to compromise on and I know you're concerned and this is my aim of the game and I'd like to see an input on this." because that, if anything, would shape the product into something both old and new consumers could buy and enjoy.

dhex wrote:
"they made us act like this" is how a child explains their behavior.


Well, what's your mature take on it? "They always been little krazy lol". We're the result of their strategy, and that of the identical strategy before that, and the nigh-identical spin-off strategy before that, and some of us ( the really bitter and articulate ones, as in, not me ) are the result of the handful of pointless brainfarts from Fallout 2. If your point is the fact that we actually release the built up steam, or that we're not completely apathetic and have a reaction towards things we concieve to be of a negative nature, as being some sort of "Only kids do that eh. Real men hold it INSIDE, and DON'T CARE", you're not exactly the best representative of this moral code. I mean, you brought it up and you flow with it -- obviously it's a subject of interest, and my defragmentation of your moot points has an impact on your well being

dhex wrote:
i love certain bands a lot;


And you also like writing without capitalization, so there we go. Music makes people dumb.

dhex wrote:
i support them, i evangelize for them, and i've even gotten to meet some of them. i consider myself lucky for that. but the day i cross over into


No, the day these bands get bought up by Christina Aguilera and streamlined into vomit so that black people can "shake their booty" and "get nekkid on da dance floo" or whatever people do is the day...

dhex wrote:
is the day i stop listening to music, because


Because you don't have the balls to stand up and say "I'm not into it, and this is why." Because you've somehow ( and I'm sure it's because you're lacking in talent and intellect, and people notice little things like that and, y'know, some dare even say it aloud ) gotten the impression that any input you as a consumer could have on a product you purchase, or any impression you have on a piece of art, is wrong and goes directly against the ideas of the artist or producer. Because you, and you're not alone in this, interpret revenue as the only binding proof of success, and anything you'd say against ( oh god no ) a marketting departement could logically only be a fallacy if they've already decided that it'll sell.

Now, I noticed you completely missed my point, and obviously think that Bethesda did Fallout 1 & 2. I just want to point out that, no, they didn't have a shit to do with those two games, and the Fallouts, well, they're, in words you'll understand, pretty fucking bitchin'. Now, Bethesda overtook the concept of Fallout in exchange for a sack of cash, and they claim that they'll go about the creation process of Fallout much alike to the one of Oblivion, hopefully ( they say ) with the exact same results.

Whatever planet you come from, you'll notice that Oblivion has very, very little to do with Fallout.

A) Bethesda did NOT, again, DID NOT have anything to do with Fallout 1 or 2.
B) No sewer midgets in Fallout.
C) No dynamic dialogues in Oblivion. ( dynamic monologues, sure )
D) Pete Hines.

I hope this clears up the matter for you. I'm not telling BIS how to make Fallout 3, and to be honest I'm not really telling Beth anything, but if I was it'd be akin to reasoning with Insane Clown Posse on how best to convey Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb without sounding like Insane Clown Posse, NOT telling Pink Floyd how to best convey Comfortably Numb THE WAY I WANT IT TO LOL.

dhex wrote:
such an intensely infantile response means i am not understanding the nature of this relationship, which mostly exists within my head.


Well, when I paint, animate, write or compose, during the production and after showing the finished result, there's nothing but thrill in opinions that go beyond "good" or "bad" but into constructive ideas on how to, according to this person that is, improve on the work. I won't grab every piece of advice and print it up -- in fact, few make it through. Those that do are however inspirational, and wether I use a piece of critique or not, it makes me happy that people actually give the work a thought beyond general quality measurement. Am I so wrong to listen to what people want? Does it in any way compromise my work? No fucking way. So that's how I treat other artists.

I'll drop in during some folk's band practice and give them my view on what horrors they're putting music through, and they go "Yeah. I was about to tone that down anyway and yabbadabba". They don't stare at me like I'm some fucking toddler, which is what they will do if you show up and go "Love the band, love the music. You guys rock and uh stuff. Can I get an autograph", because then you're just little Timmy, wanting a piggy back ride from Uncle Lucas.

I mean, have you read anything I've written so far? I'm asking for an ear, and a few finger movements of response back, as a result of the ear part. No one's dictating anything -- it's a request for communication, and communication is always beneficial.

dhex wrote:
they don't owe me a damn thing, no matter how much their work has touched my life. if they want to hear what i say that much, they'll hire me as a consultant.


I don't think anyone wants to hear you say anything, and certainly not pay for you doing so. But if you are a critical observer of their works, and now we're talking about works, not cheap cash, you'll have things in common you can talk about, and you may put up ideas that are novel and that will impact on their performance. Before "the big break" that seldom comes, it's pretty standard practice.

dhex wrote:
as someone who studies marketing, and most specifically, brand identification behavior (public policy and private sales, and all points in between) i am still trying to suss out the patterns of attachment and how they work. i don't think anyone has produced a really clear objective standard, though there's plenty of anecdotal evidence used in various ways. but there are a few major threads which seem to be cross-cultural; a sense of ownership or possession, a sense of a personal relationship (and injury or reward, depending on how the relationship fares) and a sense of individual absorption. that last part is probably the kicker; even though fans of all stripes form communities (like tgq) one thing that shows up in brand identification patterns time and time again is that the work is speaking to the individual, or sometimes even through the individual from a remote, platonically ideal source. it veers off into metaphysics, and seems to be constant across media lines. (books, music, film, games, tv, sports and to a lesser degree, politics and religion, which have their own kinds of brand identification issues above and beyond the mediasphere)

all of these recent posts would have been a far better introduction to this discussion, for what its worth. would i still think you're wrong? yes. but i'd be less inclined to use "fallout fans" in the same way i use "anime fans" - as a single phrase explanation for attachment gone awry. which is the funny part - i'm generally the guy who makes fun of jrpgs and anime and most things japanese in general. i generally much prefer western design and development in a pc context.


Me, I'm open for anything. So far however, jRPG's and anime have left a rather bland impression. There's alot of techniqes and gadgets and mindsets from these that can come in handy in personal projects, but other than that the whole is rather rubbish.

In any case, you had warranted no discussion of this magnitude in the beginning, and I opened it mainly out of pity for you guys, as it seemed there was little in understanding either the humour or the slander coming from the other dacsters, or differating the two from each other. Add lack of general knowledge about the Fallout phenomenon, and difficulty of simulating or even understanding the DAC mental state, and were this catholicism, you'd make the Pope spill his beans out of empathy.

dhex wrote:
but i had a far higher opinion of you guys before yesterday


I haven't formed any opinion about you or the other clowns. I'm looking at a set of plate glass windows, still wondering what those stains might be.

ApM wrote:
I've got a serious urge to modify the Wikipedia page for cultural genocide to include your point of view as an example. I don't see why you guys haven't done so! Clearly your cause is comparable.


Probably wouldn't last too long, or be taken seriously. Besides, it's not the destruction of cultural heritage, it's destruction ( or defiling ) of culture in general.

ApM wrote:
Maybe take out that whole boring section on Tibet and replace it with Bethesda making a new Fallout game that some guys don't think they'll like. I guess because it won't have an isometric viewpoint?


Well, I couldn't give a rats ass about Tibet, so hey. But it's not just iso, it's alot of things. Continue browsing the site.

Lestrade the HUG MASTER wrote:
Yes, after St. Toxic's last "rebuttal", I've realized that you can't win an argument with someone who doesn't speak the same language.

That's polite-talk for: you're insane, and possibly stupid.


What makes you say that? The fact that we have different priorities in life, shrouding the intentions of my words in a mist of unknowing due to your uncompromising outlook, or the fact that you simply don't -- read -- well?
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Last edited by St. Toxic on Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

St. Toxic wrote:
I haven't formed any opinion about you or the other clowns. I'm looking at a set of plate glass windows, still wondering what those stains might be.


Note: This might be more effective if it made any sense. What exactly is causing stains on those windows? Are we birds addled on fermented berries? They don't usually leave stains though, more of a grease spot. Are we being attacked by somebody with an edged weapon and our arterial spray is getting on the windows? This is unsatisfying because if you're watching, who's doing the cutting and what's your relationship to them? Friend? Lover? It's too confusing.

The word you're probably looking for is "windshield".
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St. Toxic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Note: This might be more effective if it made any sense


I'm not out for effects.

As a community, you are a transparent entity, lacking both in depth and character. As individuals, you are badly presented, and it would require extensive analysis for me to understand your composition.
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, you have nothing and have to rely upon vague statements in an attempt to sound erudite.
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Ghostface Killa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont think you understand, so see, not understanding languages works both ways. after smashing away da foundations of your extreme arguments, your left with your dick in your hands and just say 'oh...ur gay', hence. You cant really win eh, you dont have the amount of heart. you can start off proud, but its a cruel juggernaut of infinite experience. most game fans, they make mods, keep the community alive through new content. doom, quake, whatever. now think how fallout has survived for 8 or so years, with nothing apparently to show. what do you think this means? thats right. da nuclear bomb has been revealed and the clock is at 4 seconds. weve been arguing on forums for 8 years.

I don't really think they should listen to the fans though, just perhaps play the game and make a FALLOUT game instead of just a post-apoc game. Like, what's the fucking point in making a fallout sequel unless you wanted the name recognition? Fallout ain't no bottom bitch, amma live and die by the sword. Like, what are you really arguing. Are you saying fallout 3 will be good? Fallout fans are bad? As it seems to me, sorta, you're just being dicks. Have fallout fans ever really done anything without a bunch of snivelling dorks giggling about it while they huff paint, bring it on themselves like a genie rubbing cocks?

In da end you can break it down to simple equestrianality, just some people dont want to play shitty sequels? I don't see this as a bad thing. Wow, vocal. yeah well just eat your fucking vegetables and not complain about it, People probably step on your bootsies and you don't say anything, then when you get home you write a fucking BLOG about it or some shit.
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